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The    Complete    Testimony, 

Affidavits  and  Exhibits 

Presented  before 

The  American  Commission  on  Conditions 
in  Ireland 

Transcribed  and  Annotated 



Official  Reporter  to  the  Commission 

aoCTOTf    x 


Bliss  Building 
Washington,  D.  C. 

SINCE  the  sole  purpose  for  the  organiza- 
tion of  the  American  Commission  on 
Conditions  in  Ireland  and  the  publication 
of  this  volume  of  Evidence  is  to  let  the 
American  people  know  the  facts  about  the 
Irish  crisis,  will  you  not  render  the  service 
of  bringing  it  to  the  attention  of  your 
friends?  Evidence  on  Conditions  in  Ireland 
may  he  had  for  $1  in  art  paper  covers,  $1.50 
cloth  bound;  and  the  supplemental  Report 
of  the  Commission  (152  pages,  illustrated) 
for  35c  per  copy.  Orders  may  be  sent  to 
Albert  Coyle,  Official  Reporter  to  the  Com- 
mission, Bliss  Building,  Washington,  D.  C. 



The  American  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland  was  selected 
by  and  derives  its  authority  from  a  committee  of  distinguished 
Americans  brought  together  through  the  efforts  of  the  editors  of 
the  New  York  Nation  to  perform  the  service  of  ascertaining  for  the 
American  people  the  truth  about  conditions  in  Ireland,  which  in- 
creasingly menace  the  friendly  relations  that  have  existed  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States.  In  order  to  secure  an  impar- 
tial and  distinguished  body  for  this  investigation,  every  United 
States  Senator,  every  State  governor,  every  member  of  the  higher 
clergy  of  the  Protestant,  Roman  Catholic  and  Jewish  churches,  and 
the  leading  educators,  journalists,  editors,  mayors,  and  publicists 
of  the  country  were  extended  an  invitation  to  become  members  of 
this  committee,  over  150  of  whom  accepted,  including  5  State  gov- 
ernors, 11  United  States  Senators,  13  Congressmen,  the  mayors  of 
15  large  cities,  the  late  Cardinal  Gibbons.  Archbishop  Keane.  7 
Protestant  Episcopal  bishops,  4  Roman  Catholic  bishops.  4  Meth- 
odist bishops,  and  other  eminent  public  men  and  women,  repre- 
senting a  broad  diversity  of  racial  stocks  and  political  and  religious 
beliefs,  and  covering  geographically  36  states  of  the  Union. 

The  personnel  of  the  Committee  of  One  Hundred  Fifty  on  Con- 
ditions in  Ireland  is  as  follows: 

Jane  Addams,  Hull  House,  Chicago,  111. 

Hon.  Charles  F.  Amidon,  U.   S.  District  Judge,  Fargo,   N.   D. 

U.  S.  Senator  Henry  F.  Ashurst,  Prescott,  Arizona. 

Bishop  James  Atkins,  M.  E.  Church,  South,  Nashville,  Tenn. 

Mary  Austin,  writer  and  lecturer.  New  York  City. 

Abby  Scott  Baker,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Governor  Simon  Bamberger,  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah. 

Abraham  Baroff,  International  Ladies'  Garment  Workers'  L:nion.  New- 
York  City. 

Rt.  Rev.  Troy  Beatty,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Tennessee. 

Mayor  C.  F.  Beck,  Akron,  Ohio. 

Mayor  Martin  Behrman,  New  Orleans,  La. 

Fred  G.  Biedenkapp,  Brotherhood  of  Metal  Workers,  New  York. 

William  Harman  Black,  former  member  National  War  Labor  Board,  New- 
York  City. 

Alice  Stone  Blackwell,  Boston,  Mass. 

Harriet  Stanton  Blatch,  New  York  City. 

Lucy  Branham,  New  York  City. 

T.  M.  Budish,  United  Cloth.  Hat,  and  Cap  Makers  of  America,  New  York 

Rt.  Rev.  Hugh  L.  Burleson,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  South  Dakota. 

Rt.  Rev.  C.  E.  Byrne,  Bishop  of  Galveston,  Texas. 

Governor  Thomas  E.  Campbell,   Phoenix,  Arizona. 

Rt.  Rev.  John  J.  Cantwell,  Bishop  of  Monterey  and  Los  Angeles. 

U.  S.  Senator  Arthur  Capper,  Topeka,  Kansas. 

Governor  Robert  D.  Carey,  Cheyenne,  Wyoming. 



Frank  E.  Carstarphen,  Special  Counsel  for  the  Federal  Government,  New 

York  City. 
J.  J.  Castellini.  merchant,  Cincinnati,  Ohio. 
Parley   P.   Christensen,   Presidential  candidate,   Farmer-Labor    Party,   Salt 

Lake  City,  Utah. 
Professor  Arthur  C.  Cole,  Ohio  State  University,  Columbus,  Ohio. 
George    W.    Coleman,    President    of    the    Open    Forum    National    Council. 

Boston,  Mass. 
Martin  Conboy,  former  Director  of  the  Draft,  New  York  City. 
Henry  W.  L.  Dana,  Cambridge,  Mass. 
Rev.  William  Horace  Day,  former  Moderator  of  the  National  Council  of 

Congregational  Churches  of  U.  S.,  Bridgeport,  Conn. 
Rt.   Rev.    E.    T.   Demby,    P.    E.    Suffragan    Bishop   of    the    Colored    Race. 

Province  of  the  Southwest,  Little  Rock,  Ark. 
Dr.  W.  E.  B.  Du  Bois,  editor  of  The  Crisis,  New  York  City. 
Professor  Horace  A.  Eaton,  Syracuse  University,   Syracuse,  N.  Y. 
Governor  Edward  I.  Edwards,  Trenton,  N.  J. 
John  Lovejoy  Elliott,  Hudson  Guild,  New  York  City. 
Hon.  J.  W.  Folk,  former  Governor  of  Missouri,  Washington,  D.  C. 
Mrs.  Andre  Fouilhoux,  Short  Hills,  N.  J. 

Clemens  J.  France,  former  Collector  of  the  Port  of  Seattle,  Wash. 
Royal  W.  France,  lawyer,  New  York  City. 
Governor  Lynn  J.  Frazier,  Bismarck,  N.  D. 
Zona  Gale,  writer,  Portage,  Wis. 

John  F.  Galvin,  former  Chairman,  Board  of  Water  Supply,  New  York. 
Gilson   Gardner,  Washington  correspondent,   Newspaper   Enterprise  Ass'n. 
His  Eminence  James  Cardinal  Gibbons,  Baltimore,  Md.    (deceased). 
Mayor  C.  P.  Gillen,  Newark,  N.  J. 
Arthur  Gleason,  writer,  New  York  City. 

Hon.  James  H.  Graham,   former  Congressman,   Springfield,   111. 
Mayor  Frank  J.  Hague,  Jersey  City,  N.  J. 
William  Hard,  writer,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Rt.  Rev.  Robert  Le  Roy  Harris,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Marquette,  Mich. 
Dr.  Gillette  Hayden,  Columbus,  Ohio. 

Professor  Carlton  J.  Hayes,  Columbia  University,  New  York. 
Mayor  J.  J.  Hayes,  Vicksburg,  Miss. 

William  Randolph  Hearst,  newspaper  publisher.  New  York  City. 
Charles  B.  Henderson,  former  U.  S.  Senator,  Elko,  Nevada. 
Mayor  Joseph  Herman,  Newport,  Ky. 
Morris   Hillquit,   lawyer,   New  York   City. 
Rabbi  E.  E.   Hirsch,   Professor   of   Rabbinical   Literature   and   Philosophy, 

University  of  Chicago. 
Mayor  Daniel  W.  Hoan,  Milwaukee,  Wis. 
Judge  George  Holmes,  Omaha,   Nebr. 
Rev.    John    Haynes    Holmes,    President    Free    Religious    Association,    New 

York  City. 
Rt.  Rev.  J.  M.  Horner,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Asheville,  N.  C. 
Frederic   C.  Flowe,  former  Commissioner  of   Immigration  of  the   Port  of 

New  York. 
Bishop  John  Hurst,  Methodist   Episcopal  Church,   Baltimore,  Md. 
Mayor  John  F.  Hylan,  New  York  City. 

Dr.  Edmund  J.  James,  President  Emeritus,  University  of  Illinois. 
U.  S.   Senator  Hiram  W.  Johnson,  San  Francisco,   California. 
James    Weldon   Johnson,    Secretary   of   the    National    Association    for    the 

Advancement  of  Colored  People,  New  York  City. 
William    H.   Johnston,   President   International   Association   of    Machinists, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Rev.  Paul  Jones,  formerly  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Utah,  New  York  City. 
Dr.  David  Starr  Jordan,  Chancellor  Emeritus,   Leland   Stanford  Jr.   Uni- 
versity, California. 
Most  Rev.  James  J.  Keane,  Archbishop  of  Dubuque,  Iowa. 
Mayor  H.  W.  Kiel,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Edwin  P.  Kilroe,  Assistant  District  Attorney,  New  York  City. 
Richard  R.  Kilroy,  editor,  Anaconda  Standard,  Butte,  Mont. 

Dr.  George  W.  Kirchwey,  Head  of  Department  of  Criminology,  New  York 
School  of  Social  Work,  New  York  City. 

Rev.  G.  S.  Lackland,  Denver,  Colo. 

U.   S.  Senator  Robert  M.  La  Follette,  Wisconsin. 

Hon.  F.  H.  La  Guardia,  President  of  the  Board  of  Aldermen,   N.  Y.  City. 

John  S.  Leahy,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Owen  R.  Lovejoy,  General  Secretary,  National  Child  Labor  Committee, 
New  York  City. 

Professor  Robert  Morss  Lovett,  University  of  Chicago. 

Hazel  MacKave,  Director  of  the  Bureau  of  Pageantrv  and  the  Drama, 
Y.  W.  C.  A.,  New  York  City. 

Rabbi  Judah  L.  Magnes,  Chairman  of  the  Executive  Committee,  Jewish 
Community   (Kehillah)   of  New  York  City. 

Mayor  James   B.  McCavitt,  Anaconda,  Mont. 

Allen  McCurdy.  Secretary  of  the  National  Executive  Committee.  Commit- 
tee of  48,  New  York  City. 

U.  S.  Senator  Charles  L.  McNary,  Salem,  Oregon. 

Bertha  H.  Mailly,  Executive  Secretary,  Rand  School  of  Social  Science, 
New  York  City. 

Hon.  Dudley  Field  Malone,  former  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  U.  S. 
Treasury,  New  York  City. 

Basil  M.  Manlv.  Director  of  the  Scripps  Economic  Bureau,  Washington. 
D.  C. 

Mayor  Elliott  Marshall,  St.  Joseph,  Mo. 

Anne  Martin,  publicist,  Reno,  Nev. 

Congressman  William  E.  Mason,  Chicago,  111. 

James  H.  Maurer,  President,  Pennsylvania  State  Federation  of  Labor, 
Harrisburg,   Pa. 

Mrs.  Katherine  M.  Meserole,  Bellport,  Long  Island,  N.  Y. 

John  E.  Milholland,  business  man  and  writer.  New  York  City. 

A.  P.  Moore,  editor  of  the  Pittsburgh  Leader,  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

Mrs.  Agnes  H.  Morey,  Brookline,  Mass. 

Bishop  H.  C.  Morrison,  M.  E.  Church,  South,  Leesburg,  Fla. 

William  J.  Mulligan,  Supreme  Director  of  Knights  of  Columbus.  Thomp- 
sonville.  Conn. 

Mrs.  William   Spencer  Murray,  Catskill,  N.  Y. 

Professor  William  A.  Nitze,  head  of  the  Department  of  Romance  Lan- 
guages and  Literatures,  University  of  Chicago. 

Edward  N.  Nockels,  associate  editor,  The  New  Majority,  Chicago,  111. 

Rt.  Rev.  John  J.  O'Connor,  Bishop  of  Newark,  N.  J. 

Daniel  C.  O'Flaherty,  Richmond,  Va. 

Rt.  Rev.  Charles  T.  Olmsted,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Central  New  York. 

M.  O'Neill.  Akron.  Ohio. 

Rt.  Rev.  Edward  L.  Parsons.  P.  E.  Bishop  Coadjutor  of  California,  San 
Francisco,  Calif. 

Captain  Julius  C.  Peyser,  Washington,  D.  C. 

U.  S.  Senator  James  D.  Phelan,  San  Francisco,   Calif. 

Rev.  Watson   L.  Phillips,   Shelton,  Conn. 

Amos  R.  E.  Pinchot,  lawyer  and  publicist,  New  York  City. 

Mayor  Willis  H.   Plunkett,   Phoenix,  Ariz. 

Rev.  Levi  M.  Powers,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mayor  George  A.  Quigley.  New  Britain,  Conn. 

Mayor  Edward  W.  Quinn,  Cambridge,  Mass. 

Congressman  Charles  E.  Randall,  Kenosha,  Wis. 

U.  S.  Senator  Joseph  E.  Ransdell,  Louisiana. 

Mrs.  James  Rector,  Columbus,  Ohio. 

Raymond  Robins,  formerly  Commissioner  in  command  of  the  American 
Red  Cross  Mission  to  Russia,  Chicago,  111. 

Gilbert  E.  Roe,  lawyer,  New  York  City. 

Mrs.  John  Rogers,  Jr.,  New  York  City. 

Rev.  John  A.  Ryan,  Professor  of  Theology,  Catholic  University  of  Amer- 
ica, Washington,  D.  C. 


Professor  Ferdinand  Schevill,  Professor  of  Modern  History,  University 
of  Chicago. 

Rose  Schneidermann,  Woman's  Trade  Union  League,  New  York. 

Mavor  Cornell  Schrieber,  Toledo,  Ohio. 

Hon.  R.  O.  Sharon,  Peoria,  111. 

Congressman  Isaac  R.  Sherwood,  Toledo,  Ohio. 

Dr.  John  S.  Simon.  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

J.  C.  Skemp,  International  Union  of  Painters  and  Decorators,  Lafayette, 

Mayor  E.  P.  Smith,  Omaha,  Nebr. 

Mrs.  Anna  Garlin  Spencer,  minister,  educator,  White  Plains,  N,  Y. 

U.  S.  Senator  Selden  P.  Spencer,  St.  Louis,  Missouri. 

Emma  Steghagen,  Woman's  Trade  Union  League,  Chicago.  111. 

Doris  Stevens,  New  York  City. 

Mayor  Peter  F.  Sullivan,  Worcester.  Mass. 

Rev.  Norman  M.  Thomas,  editor  of  The  World  Tomorrow,  New  York  City. 

Richard  C.  Tolman,  Associate  Director  Fixed  Nitrogen  Research  Labora- 
tory, War  Department,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Albert  B.  Unger,  Assistant  District  Attorney,  New  York  City. 

Hon.  Tames  K.  Vardaman,  former  U.  S.  Senator.  Jackson,  Miss. 

Mrs.  Henry  Villard,  Dobbs  Ferry,  N.  Y. 

Congressman  Edward  Voight,  Sheboygan,  Wis. 

John  H.  Walker,  President  Illinois  State  Federation  of  Labor,  Springfield, 

U.  S.  Senator  David  I.  Walsh.  Boston,  Mass. 

J.  Barnard  Walton,  General  Secretary,  Advancement  Committee,  General 
Conference  of  the  Religious  Society  of  Friends,  Philadelphia,  Pa. 

Dr.  James  P.  Warbasse,  President  of  the  Cooperative  League  of  America. 
New  York  City. 

William  Allen  White,  editor  of  the  Emporia  Gazette,  Emporia,  Kansas. 

Rt.  Rev.  Cortlandt  Whitehead,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood,  lawyer.  New  York  City. 


The  foregoing  members  of  the  Committee  on  Conditions  in  Ire- 
land elected  from  their  number  a  commission  of  five,  with  power  to 
enlarge  its  personnel  by  calling  other  members  of  the  parent  com- 
mittee to  aid  it  in  the  prosecution  of  a  public  inquiry  into  conditions 
in  Ireland.  It  was  thus  assured  that  the  Commission  entrusted  with 
the  task  of  making  this  important  inquiry  should  be  composed  of 
persons  of  national  distinction  and  of  ability  and  integrity  beyond 
question.  The  Commission  as  finally  constituted  consists  of  the 
following  members: 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood,  Chairman — Lawyer  and  publicist.  A  graduate 
of  Haverford  College,  Pennsylvania,  and  Columbia  University  Law  School, 
New  York  City,  Mr.  Wood  was  admitted  to  the  bar  of  the  State  of  New 
York  in  1899,  and  has  distinguished  himself  in  the  practice  of  law  in  New 
York  City.  Besides  his  professional  attainments,  Mr.  Wood  has  devoted 
himself  unselfishly  to  a  number  of  humanitarian  causes.  He  is  a  member 
of  the  American  Civil  Liberties  Union,  vice-president  of  the  Board  of 
Trustees  of  Fisk  University,  Nashville,  Tennessee ;  member  of  the  Board 
of  Managers  of  Haverford  College ;  president  of  the  National  Urban 
League  for  the  Improvement  of  Race  Relations  Within  the  United  States  ; 
and  an  influential  member  of  the  Society  of  Friends  (Quakers).  Mr. 
Wood  has  traveled  extensively  in  Europe,  Asia,  and  Africa;  he  is  one  of 
the  few  Americans  who  have  toured  England  on  a  cricket  team ;  and  he 
has  visited  Ireland  a  half-dozen  times  to  study  the  development  of  the 
Irish  Cooperative  Movement. 


Dr.  Frederic  C.  Howe,  J 'ice-Chair man — Author,  attorney,  economist. 
Dr.  Howe  is  one  of  the  foremost  American  authorities  in  political  econ- 
omy. His  public  career  began  with  the  practice  of  law  in  Cleveland,  Ohio, 
serving  in  turn  as  city  councillor  and  state  senator.  He  was  appointed 
special  United  States  Commissioner  to  investigate  municipal  ownership  in 
Great  Britain  (1905)  ;  professor  of  law  at  the  Cleveland  College  of  Law; 
special  lecturer  on  Taxation  at  Western  Reserve  University;  lecturer  on 
Municipal  Administration  and  Politics  at  the  University  of  Wisconsin ; 
director  of  People's  Institute,  New  York  (1911-14)  ;  Commissioner  of 
Immigration  of  the  Port  of  New  York  (1914-19)  ;  director,  Conference  on 
Democratic  Control  of  Railroads  (1919-20)  ;  and  since  then  he  has  served 
as  executive  secretary  of  the  All-American  Cooperative  Commission.  Dr. 
Howe  is  the  author  of  numerous  books  on  taxation,  municipal  government, 
and  the  war.  His  familiarity  with  European  conditions  is  derived  from 
graduate  studies  in  England  and  Germany,  from  frequent  trips  as  investi- 
gator and  writer,  and  recently  as  an  expert  on  international  affairs  at- 
tached to  the  American  delegation  at  the  Paris  Peace  Conference. 

Jane  Addams — Author,  lecturer,  sociologist.  Miss  Addams  is  not  only 
America's  most  distinguished  woman  sociologist,  but  one  whose  interna- 
tional contributions  have  made  her  as  well  known  in  Europe  as  at  home. 
After  graduation  from  Rockford  College,  Miss  Addams  spent  several 
years  in  Europe  studying  applied  sociology  and  political  economy,  and 
returned  to  become  head  of  Hull  House,  Chicago  (1889),  which  became 
the  model  for  the  development  of  social  settlement  centers  throughout  the 
cities  of  the  nation.  Among  many  outstanding  public  services,  Miss 
Addams  acted  as  president  of  the  National  Conference  of  Charities  and 
Corrections  (1909),  and  president  of  the  International  Congress  of 
Women  in  Switzerland  (1919).  She  is  now  chairman  of  the  Women's 
Peace  Party,  the  International  Committee  of  W'omen  for  Permanent  Peace, 
the  Women's  International  League,  and  a  member  of  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee of  the  American  Union  Against  Militarism,  and  many  other  reform 
organizations.  In  recognition  of  Miss  Addams'  high  public  services,  the 
honorary  degree  of  LL.  D.  has  been  conferred  on  her  by  the  University  of 
Wisconsin  and  Smith  College,  and  the  A.  M.  degree  by  Yale  University. 
Miss  Addams  is  the  author  of  numerous  well-known  books  on  sociology 
and  political  economy,  and   is  an  eminent  lecturer  on  these  subjects. 

James  H.  Maurer — Labor  leader,  writer,  legislator.  Mr.  Maurer  has 
been  for  many  years  the  president  of  the  Pennsylvania  State  Federation 
of  Labor,  which  has  become  under  his  guidance  one  of  the  most  progres- 
sive labor  organizations  in  America.  He  is  a  well-known  authority  on 
workmen's  compensation,  workers'  education,  cooperation,  and  other  labor 
problems.  He  is  a  member  of  the  Executive  Board  of  Labor  Age,  and 
serves  as  director  for  many  other  organizations  striving  for  the  betterment 
of  the  working  classes.  Mr.  Maurer  represented  the  Reading  district  for 
a  number  of  terms  in  the  Pennsylvania  State  Legislature. 

Major  Oliver  P.  Newman — Journalist,  lecturer,  sociologist.  Major 
Newman  was  born  and  reared  in  the  Middle  West,  where  he  received  his 
education  until  his  appointment  to  the  National  Military  Academy  at  West 
Point.  He  followed  the  profession  of  journalism  in  the  Middle  West  for 
a  number  of  year,  distinguished  himself  also  as  an  author  and  short- 
story  writer.  Major  Newman's  broad  humanitarian  interests  led  him  into 
social  service  work,  where  he  made  a  substantial  contribution  to  American 
sociology  as  one  of  the  founders  of  the  Social  Unit  Organization.  He  is 
now  serving  as  vice-president  of  the  National  Community  Board,  and  is 
well  known  as  a  lecturer  on  social  service  and  political  economy.  He  was 
appointed  by  President  Wilson  to  the  Board  of  Commissioners,  the  gov- 
erning body  of  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  served  as  President  of  the 
Board  from  1913  to  1917,  resigning  to  take  up  the  command  of  a  battalion 
of  field  artillery  following  America's  entrance  into  the  late  war.  Major 
Newman  served  ten  months  in  France,  and  since  his  return  to  civil  life 
has  continued  in  the  profession  of  journalism  at  the  national  capital. 


U.  S.  Senator  George  W.  Norris — Educator,  jurist,  statesman.  Senator 
Norris  began  his  career  as  a  teacher,  was  graduated  from  Valparaiso 
University  law  school,  and  admitted  to  the  bar  in  1883.  After  serving 
three  terms  as  prosecuting  attorney,  he  was  twice  elected  district  judge  of 
the  Fourteenth  District  (1895,  1899),  which  position  he  held  when  nomi- 
nated for  Congress  (1902).  Since  that  time  Senator  Norris  has  continu- 
ously represented  the  people  of  Nebraska  at  Washington,  serving  in  five 
successive  Congresses  prior  to  his  election  to  the  Senate  in  1912,  and  his 
re-election  in  1918.  His  fairness  and  fearlessness  in  public  life  have  won 
him  the  esteem  of  the  nation. 

Rev.  Norman  M.  Thomas — Minister,  lecturer,  editor.  A  graduate  of 
Princeton  University  and  Union  Theological  Seminary,  New  York,  Rev. 
Thomas  officiated  as  associate  minister  of  the  Brick  Presbyterian  Church. 
New  York  (1910-11)  ;  minister  of  the  East  Harlem  Presbyterian  Church 
and  director  of  the  American  Parish  Among  Immigrants  (1911-18)  ;  mem- 
ber of  the  Fellowship  of  Reconciliation,  and  editor  of  The  World  To-m 
morrow  (1918—).  Rev.  Thomas  is  a  prominent  lecturer  on  economic 
and  political  reform,  and  has  rendered  conspicuous  service  since  the  war 
with  a  number  of  reconstruction  organizations. 

U.  S.  Senator  David  I.  Walsh — Senator  Walsh's  public  services  in- 
clude membership  in  the  Massachusetts  House  of  Representatives,  Lieu- 
tenant-Governor of  Massachusetts,  and  twice  Governor  of  that  State  (1914, 
1915).  He  was  elected  delegate-at-large  to  the  Democratic  National  Con- 
vention, 1912,  1916,  and  1920;  delegate-at-large  to  the  Massachusetts 
Constitutional  Convention,  1917-1918;  elected  to  the  United  States  Senate, 
1918.  Senator  Walsh  has  distinguished  himself  both  in  the  study  and 
practice  of  law,  receiving  the  Bachelor  of  Laws  degree  from  Boston  Uni- 
versity School  of  Law  in  1897,  and  subsequently  the  honorary  Doctor  of 
Laws  degree  from  Holy  Cross  College,  Notre  Dame  University,  and 
Georgetown  University. 


Dr.  William  MacDonald,  Secretary. 
Harold  Kellock,  Publicity. 
Albert  Coyle,  Official  Reporter. 


District  of  Columbia,  ss.: 

I,  Albert  Coyle,  do  hereby  certify  that  I  am  Official  Reporter  to  the 
American  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland ;  that  in  said  capacity  I 
personally  attended  each  and  all  of  the  hearings  held  by  said  Com- 
mission in  the  City  of  Washington,  District  of  Columbia,  from  November 
18.  1920,  to  January  21,  1921,  inclusive,  save  and  except  Session  Two  of 
the  Fifth  Hearings,  held  January  14,  1921  ;  that  I  personally  took  down  in 
shorthand  the  complete  testimony  and  other  proceedings  before  said  Com- 
mission at  each  and  all  of  the  aforesaid  hearings;  and  that  the  follow- 
ing is  a  full,  true,  and  correct  transcript  of  the  shorthand  notes  taken  by 
me  at  said  hearings,  excepting  only  irrelevant  and  immaterial  remarks 
extraneous  to  the  inquiry. 

I  further  certify  that  all  affidavits,  depositions,  signed  statements,  and 
other  documents  submitted  in  evidence  to  the  said  Commission  by  wit- 
nesses and  counsel  at  the  aforesaid  hearings  were  given  over  into  my  cus- 
tody and  keeping;  that  same  were  appropriately  marked  and  designated  by 
me  for  purposes  of  identification ;  that  I  have  kept  same  continuously  in 
my  care  and  custody;  and  that  the  copies  of  same  reproduced  in  the  fol- 
lowing transcript  are  true  and  correct  copies  of  the  original  documents 
submitted  in  evidence  as  aforesaid. 

IN  WITNESS  WHEREOF  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and  seal  this 
eighth  day  of  May.  A.  D.  1921. 

(Seal)  Albert  Coyle. 

District  of  Columbia,  ss.: 

We,  Alexander  H.  Gait  and  Harry  G.  Wilbur,  do  hereby  certify  that 
we  were  engaged  by  the  American  Commission  to  Investigate  Conditions 
in  Ireland,  on  January  14,  1921,  to  make  a  stenographic  report  of  its  pro- 
ceedings of  that  day  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette  in  Washington,  D.  C. ;  that 
we  made  such  report  and  that  the  transcript  is  a  true  and  accurate  record 
to  the  best  of  our  knowledge  and  belief,  and  was  duly  verified  by  the  wit- 
nesses  after  having  been   reduced   to    typewriting. 

Alexander  H.  Gai.t. 
Harry  G.  Wilbur. 

Sworn  to  and  subscribed  before  me  this  8th  day  of  May,  1921. 

(Seal)  Joseph  M.  Tighe. 

Notary  Public  for  District  of  Columbia. 

My  Commission  expires  April.   1923. 




The  Committee  of  One  Hundred  Fifty  on  Conditions  in  Ireland Ill 

Personnel  of  the  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland VI 

Preface    IX 

Attest  of  Transcript XI 

Index  of  Witnesses  : 

Irish  citizens  indicated  by  (I) 

British  citizens  indicated  by  (B) 

American  citizens  indicated  by  (A) 


Session  One — November  18,  1920 

Denis  Morgan   ( I ) 6 

Chairman  of  the  Urban  Council  of  Thurles 
Rev.  Michael  M.  English    (A) 53 

Whitehall,  Montana 
John  F.  Martin    (A) 69 

Attorney,  Green  Bay,   Wisconsin 
Rev.  James  H.  Cotter    (A) 75 

Clergyman  and  Editor,  Ironton,  Ohio 

Session  Two — November  19,  1920 

John  Derham    (I) 92 

Town  Councillor  of  Balbriggan 
Mrs.  Agnes  B.  King   (A) 120 

Ironton,  Ohio 
Francis  Hackett   (A) • 137 

Associate  Editor,  "The  New  Republic,"  New  York  City ;  inves- 
tigated conditions  in  Ireland  for  the  New  York  "World" 
Signe  Toksvig  (Mrs.  Hackett)    (A) 174 

Associate  Editor,  "The  New  Republic."  New  York  City 


Session  One — December  8,  1920 

Miss   Mary   MacSwiney    (I) 183 

Sister  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 

Session  Two — December  9,  1920 

Mrs.  Muriel  MacSwiney    ( I ) 265 

Widow  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 
Miss   Mary    MacSwiney 303 

Session  Three — December  10,  1920 

Miss  Mary  MacSwiney 345 

P.  J.  Guilfoil   (A) 366 

Pittsburgh,  Pennsyhan ia 
Daniel  Francis  Crowley   (I) 376 

Member  of  Royal  Irish   Constabulary  from  November,   1914, 
to  June,  1920 
Tohn   Tangney    (I)    390 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  October,  1915,  to  July.  1920 
Mrs.  Anna  Murphey   (I) 402 

New  York  City.     (Husband  an  Irish  citizen) 
John  Joseph  Caddan   (I) 407 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  February  to  November,  1920 
Daniel   Galvin    (I) 421 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  October,  1907,  to  July,  1920 




Session  One — December  15.  1920 

Miss  Ruth  Russell    (A) _ 428 

Chicago.     Investigated   conditions   in   Ireland  for   the   Chicago 
'■Daily  News" 

Hon..  Laurence   Ginnell    ( I ) : 462 

Former    Member    of    British    Parliament ;    Member    of    Dail 
Eireann  and  of  the  Irish  Republican  Cabinet 

Session  Two — December  16.  1920 

Miss    Nellie    Craven    (A) 506 

Washington,  D.  C.     Cousin  of  Michael  Walsh,  murdered  Coun- 
cillor of  Galway,  Ireland 
Paul  J.  Furnas   (A) 517 

Nezv  York  City.     Member  of  the  Society  of  Friends 


Session  One — December  21.  1920 

Mrs.  Annot   Erskine   Robinson    (B) 530 

Manchester,     England.       Representative     of     British     Branch, 
Women's  International  League 

Miss    Ellen   C.   Wilkinson    (B) 578 

Manchester,     England.       Representative     of     British     Branch, 
Women's  International  League 

Session  Two — December  22.  1920 

Miss  Susanna  Walsh    (I) 627 

Sister-in-law   of  Aid.    Thomas   MacCurtain,   late    Lord  Mayor 
of  Cork 

.Miss  Anna  Walsh   (  I ) 653 

Sister-in-law  of  Aid.    Thomas  MacCurtain,   late   Lord   Mayor 
of  Cork 

Daniel  J.   Broderick    (A) 664 

Chicago,  Illinois 

Session  Three — December  23.  1920 

Mrs.  Michael  Mohan    (A) 684 

Corona.  Nezv  York 
John   Charles  Clarke    (A) 699 

Corona,  New  York 


Session   One — January  13.    1921 
Hon.  Donal  O'Callaghan    (I) " 718 

Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 

Session  Two — January  14.   1921 

Lord   Mayor   Donal   O'Callaghan 798 

Thomas  Nolan    (I)    852 

Merchant,  Galway 
Emil  Pezolt  (A) 869 

Oakland,    California.      Junior    Engineer    on    U.    S.    S.    "West 
Henry   Turk    (A)    879 

San  Francisco.     Messman  on  U.  S.  "West  Cannon" 
Harold  Johnson    (A) 882 

Bucks  County.  Pennsylvania.     Sailor  on  U.  S.  S.  "West  Cannon" 


Ralph  Taylor   (A)    886 

Scott   Township,   Pennsylvania,  Messman  on    U.   S.    S.    "IV est 

Peter   J.   MacSwiney    (A) 889 

New  York  City.     Brother  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 


Session  One — January  19,  1921 

Frank  Dempsey    ( I ,) 893 

Chairman  of  the  Urban  Council  of  Mallow 
J.   L.  Fawsitt    (I) 935 

Consul-General  of  the  Irish  Republic,  New  York  City 

Session   Two — January  21,   1921 

Miss  Louie  Bennett  (I) 979 

Dublin.      Secretary    of   Irish    Branch,    Women's    International 

Miss  Caroline  Townshend   (I) 1015 

Bandon,  County  Cork.     Officer  of  the  Gaelic  League 

Exhibit  I.     Memorandum  on  English  Armed  Aggression  against  the 

Irish  People,  Resulting  in  the  Killing  of  Policemen 1053 

Exhibit    II.      Memorandum    on    British    Atrocities    in    Ireland,    1916 

through  1920 1059 

Exhibit  III.     Terrorism  in  Tuam 1060 

Exhibit  IV.     Official  Falsehood  to  Conceal  Murder:  Case  of  Connor 

Clune   1064 

Subject    Index 1069 


Page  167,  line  33 :  for  iogS  read  1908. 

Page  205,  line  19,  and  page  206,  line  25 :  for  Sid  read  Sir. 

Page  336,  line  16 :  for  co-called  read  so-called. 

Page  417,  line  30:  for  Roddy  read  Ruddy. 

Page  564,  line  4:  read  And  impropriety  read  Any  impropriety. 

Page  635,  line  30:  for  Maura  read  Maun. 

Page  900,  for  line  41  read:  /  happened  to  be  in  Tralec  at  the  time.     On  tin 

first  time  they  came . 

Page  908,  line  12:  for  Police  read  Military. 







Presented  to  the 

American  Commission  of  Inquiry  on  Conditions 

in  Ireland 

Jane  Addams 
James  H.  Maurer 
David  I.  Walsh 


Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 


Session  One 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  at  the  Hotel  Lafayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  November  18,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:22  a.  m. 


Chairman  Howe:  This  is  the  first  session  of  the  hearings  of  the 
American  Commission  on  Ireland.  The  American  Commission  on 
Ireland  was  conceived  of  and  started  by  the  New  York  Nation  in 
September  last  as  a  result  of  the  growing  body  of  public  opinion 
in  this  country  that  was  seriously  concerned  over  conditions  in 
Ireland.  Something  like  one  hundred  fifty  people,  representing 
all  phases  of  thought,  selected  from  various  professions,  mostly 
persons  who  had  been  identified  with  public-spirited  enterprises  in 
this  country,  were  associated  into  this  Committee  of  One  Hundred 
Fifty,  which  was  the  body  from  which  this  Commission  has  sprung, 
— elected  by   this   larger   Committee.      A   complete   list   of  the   one 

1  The  Commission  at  its  first  sitting  elected  Hon.  Joseph  W.  Folk, 
former  Governor  of  Missouri,  as  Chairman,  and  Dr.  Frederic  C.  Howe 
as  Vice-Chairman.  Because  Mr.  Folk  felt  that  his  legal  relations  with 
the  Egyptian  Nationalists  might  embarrass  the  Commission,  he  resigned, 
and  Dr.  Howe  served  as  Acting  Chairman  until  the  addition  to  the  Com- 
mission of  Major  Newman,  Mr.  Thomas,  and  Mr.  Wood,  the  latter  being 
then  elected   Chairman   of  the   Commission. 

hundred  fifty  was  sent  to  all  those  so  selected,  and  they  in  turn 
were  asked  to  vote  from  out  of  that  larger  list  for  a  smaller  Com- 
mission to  hear  testimony.  It  was  in  the  nature  of  a  referendum 
vote.  The  votes  as  they  came  in  were  tabulated,  and  this  Commis- 
sion came  into  existence  in  that  way.  It  was  picked  by  one  hundred 
fifty  people. 

The  Commission  immediately  got  into  communication  with  the 
British  Embassy  in  Washington;  with  Mr.  de  Valera;  it  cabled  to 
England  and  cabled  to  Ireland  to  secure  witnesses  who  might  appear 
before  the  Commission  and  give  testimony.  A  number  of  those 
witnesses  are  here  today. 


The  motives  which  called  this  Commission  into  existence,  and  its 
purposes  as  formulated  by  the  Commission,  are  as  follows: 

The  American  Commission  on  Ireland,  which  now  opens  its  first 
hearings,  was  elected  by  referendum  vote  from  a  larger  committee 
of  one  hundred  fifty  eminent  Americans  organized  through  the 
efforts  of  the  New  York  Nation.  Conditions  in  Ireland  have  pro- 
foundly stirred  millions  of  American  citizens  of  Irish  descent.  They 
have  created  and  are  creating  a  widening  rift  in  the  friendly  rela- 
tions of  English-speaking  peoples,  not  only  in  America  but  all  over 
the  world.  No  person  who  shares  our  common  blood  and  language 
can  view  unmoved  the  existence  of  civil  war,  the  killing  of  human 
beings,  and  the  substitution  of  martial  rule  for  the  civil  state  in 
any  part  of  the  English-speaking  world.  As  a  people  we  have 
been  trained  by  centuries  to  a  belief  in  orderly  civic  processes. 
Only  in  direst  necessity  can  there  be  justification  of  a  resort  to 
arms  for  the  adjustment  of  disputes  which  it  has  been  our  custom 
and  our  pride  to  adjust  by  reasoned  and  amicable  means. 

What  the  world  most  needs  is  peace.  It  needs  an  ending  of  hate. 
Discussion  should  resume  its  ascendancy  and  reason  should  displace 
the  employment  of  force.  The  orgy  of  destruction  which  is  now 
ravaging  Ireland  is  sending  its  repercussions  to  every  corner  of  the 
civilized  world.  It  cannot  fail  to  postpone  indefinitely  the  return 
of  ordered  tranquillity  to  civilization.  In  addition  to  all  this,  the 
political  life  of  America,  as  well  as  its  orderly  social  processes,  is 
profoundly  disturbed  by  the  injection  of  an  internecine  war  between 
peoples  of  our  own  flesh  and  blood. 


Feelings  such  as  these  gave  birth  to  this  Commission  for  investi- 
gating into  conditions  existent  in  Ireland.  The  Commission  has 
set  itself  to  the  task  of  ascertaining  the  facts.  "  It  plans  to  learn  as 
nearly  as  possible  just  what  the  conditions  in  Ireland  are  and  what 
has  brought  them  about.  It  plans  to  conduct  a  series  of  public 
hearings  in  Washington.  It  will  hear  witnesses  who  present  them- 
selves representing  English  and  Irish  opinion.  The  Commission 
plans  to  send  a  mission  to  England  and  Ireland  to  make  an  inquiry 
into  conditions  in  the  latter  country.1  It  will  investigate  the  kill- 
ings and  disorders.  Quite  as  important  to  the  permanent  adjustment 
of  the  dispute,  it  will  investigate  into  the  economic  conditions  in 
Ireland,  the  extent  to  which  the  Irish  have  developed  a  self-con- 
tained economic  and  cultural  life,  and  the  extent  to  which  the  Irish 
people  have  evolved  their  own  agencies  of  self-government  during 
the  last  few  years. 

In  making  these  investigations,  the  Commission  has  received  as- 
surances of  cordial  cooperation  from  liberal-minded  groups  in  Eng- 
land, who  are  also  deeply  concerned  over  the  state  of  civil  war 
that  exists  in  Ireland.  It  has  received  similar  assurances  from 
British  labor  groups  and  from  British  statesmen,  as  well  as  from 
organizations  in  Ireland.  Judging  by  the  expressions  that  have 
reached  the  Commission,  the  creation  of  this  unofficial  agency  and 
the  delegation  of  this  unofficial  mission  to  Ireland  have  awakened 
a  genuine  hope  that  through  an  impartial  inquiry  into  the  facts  and 
a  disinterested  study  of  conditions,  some  constructive  measures  may 
be  formulated  for  ending  the  chaotic  situation  that  now  prevails. 


In  carrying  out  the  purposes  of  the  inquiry,  the  Commission  has 
sent,  as  I  stated,  a  number  of  communications  to  the  British  Am- 
bassador and  to  Mr.  de  Valera.2  Persons  representing  any  phase 
of  this  subject  have  been  invited  to  be  present  this  morning.  Wit- 
nesses   who    have    been    called    have    been    given    the    privilege    of 

1  The  Commission  selected  Major  Newman,  Mr.  Maurer,  Rev.  Norman 
Thomas.  Mr.  Arthur  Gleason,  Dean  Robert  Morss  Lo'vett.  and  Dr.  Wil- 
liam MacDonald  as  members  of  this  mission.  Passports  were  duly  granted 
to  them  by  the  U.  S.  Department  of  State,  but  the  British  Embassy  at 
Washington  refused  to  vise  their  passports,  and  effectively  blocked  this 
effort  to  make  a  first-hand  investigation  of  conditions  in  Ireland.  For 
correspondence,  see  Appendix  A  of  Commission's  report. 

-  See  Appendix   A   of   Commission's  interim  'report. 

selecting  counsel,  and  the  Commission  is  solicitous  that  all  interests 
that  may  be  involved  should  be  permitted  to  make  such  inquiries 
of  the  witnesses  as  are  germane  to  this  inquiry. 

The  witnesses  that  have  been  asked  to  appear  for  this  day's  pro- 
ceedings are  as  follows:  Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  Chairman  of  the  Urban 
Council  of  Thurles,  -Ireland;  Reverend  Father  English,  of  White- 
hall, Montana;  Mr.  Francis  Hackett,  of  New  York  City;  Miss  Signe 
Toksvig,  of  New  York;  and  Mr.  John  F.  Martin,  of  Green  Bay, 
Wisconsin.  I  presume  that  many  of  these  witnesses  are  here,  and 
they  will  be  called  in  the  order  named. 

I  might  say,  in  order  that  they  may  know  the  nature  of  these 
proceedings,  that  we  are  not  a  legal  body.  We  have  no  power  to 
subpoena  witnesses.  We  desire  only  statements  of  facts.  If  any 
of  the  witnesses  will  indicate  that  they  desire  to  be  examined  by 
counsel,  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  grant  that  privilege.  We  want 
them  to  feel  perfectly  free  to  tell  their  stories  in  their  own  way: 
about  the  facts,  about  the  background  of  conditions,  about  their 
own  experiences;  so  that  this  Commission,  none  of  whose  members 
has  been  in  Ireland  for  a  long  time,  will  get  as  clear  an  idea  as 
possible  of  present  conditions. 

Is  it  clear  that  all  of  these  witnesses,  have  been  invited  by  the 
Commission?  Senator  Walsh  asks  me  to  emphasize  that  all  of 
these  witnesses  are  witnesses  of  the  Commission.  They  have  been 
invited  by  it.  Their  expenses  from  Ireland  have  been  paid  by  it. 
These  hearings  are  hearings  of  the  Commission. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh  (of  counsel)  :  May  I  ask  if  the  petition 
which  I  presented  the  other  day  to  your  Commission,  that  permis- 
sion be  given  to  the  Commission  on  Irish  Independence  to  be  present 
here  and  be  heard,  has  been  acted  upon  by  the  Commission  of 

Chairman  Howe:  The  petition  has  been  raceived  and  granted  by 
the  Commission.  All  witnesses  coming  here  can  have  counsel  in 
telling  their  story. 

The  first  witness,  Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  of  Thurles,  Ireland. 

Q.     What  is  your  official  position,  if  any? 

A.  I  hold  the  position  of  Chairman  of  the  Thurles  Urban  Coun- 
cil, the  governing  body  of  Thurles. 

Q.     That  is  the  same  as  our  town  councils? 

A.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  same  as  our  town  councils. 

Q.     Will  the  witness  give  his  full  name? 

A.     Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  of  Thurles,  Ireland. 

Chairman  Howe:  If  you  desire,  your  counsel  can  conduct  your 
testimony.     That  will  be  satisfactory. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  kind  of  a  town  is  Thurles? 

A.  The  town  that  I  was  in  in  Ireland  is  a  town  of  about  five 
thousand  people. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  might  say  that  Mr.  Morgan  and  the  other 
witnesses  from  Ireland  have  advised  with  the  American  Commission 
on  Irish  Independence.  You  may  make  your  statement  to  that 

The  Witness:  As  regards  to  that,  I  have  spoken  to  Mr.  Walsh 
and  Mr.  Malone  for  any  assistance  that  I  need  in  hearing  my 

Q.     Would  you  like  to  have  them  lead  you  in  stating  your  case? 

A.     I  would  like  to  have  them  assist  me  in  points. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  a  good  background  for  it  would  be  to 
give  your  own  length  of  residence  in  Thurles.  I  could  ask  you  some 
questions  that  I  think  would  start  this. 

Q.     You  are  chairman  of  the  town   council   of  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  is  the  population  of  Thurles? 

A.     About  five  thousand. 

Q.  Has  it  any  industries?  Is  it  a  manufacturing  place?  What 
sort  of  town  would  you  say  it  is? 

A.     It  is  a  large  agricultural  center.     It  isn't  an  industrial  town. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  are  chairman  of  the  town  council.  Briefly, 
what  does  that  town  council  consist  of  and  what  are  its  duties? 

A.  It  is  the  governing  body  of  the  town.  There  are  twelve 
members  of  them,  which  are  selected  by  the  voters  on  the  principle 
of  proportional  representation. 

Q.     When  were  you  elected  chairman  of  the  town  council? 

A.     On  the  thirtieth  of  January  of  this  year. 

Q.  Were  the  members  of  the  town  council  elected  by  a  vote  of 
the  people  of  Thurles? 

A.     They  were. 

Q.  Briefly,  who  were  candidates  and  what  party  did  you 

A.  There  were  three  different  parties  trying  to  get  representa- 
tion on  the  council.  There  were  the  Republican  candidates;  ihen 
there  was  the  Labor  Party  and  the  Independent  Party. 

Q.  Is  the  Independent  Party  the  party  that  is  presumably  op- 
posed to  Sinn  Fein? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  three  parties  had  candidates  in  the  field.  What  party 
did  you  represent? 

A.      I  was  on  the  Labor  Party. 

Q.     Are  you   affiliated  with   any  labor  organization   in   Thurles? 

A.  I  am.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Teachers'  Association  on  the 
Trades  Council. 

Q.  It  might  be  apropos  at  this  time  to  state  what  your  business 
was  in  Thurles  and  what  you  have  done  there. 

A.  I  have  been  there  for  the  past  twelve  years  and  have  carried 
on  the  occupation  of  teaching  at  the  Christian  Brothers'  School  and 
the  Diocesan  College. 

Q.     What  branches  do   you  teach? 

A.     English,  Irish,  and  mathematics. 

Q.      How  many  students  in  the  Diocesan  College? 

A.     One  hundred  and  twenty  students. 

Q.     In  the  secondary  school? 

A.     In  the  secondary  school  up  to  one  hundred  students. 

Q.     That  has  been  your  vocation  while 'you  have  been  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  you  single  or  married? 

A.     I  am  married. 

Q.  If  you  would,  state  the  situation  of  the  election  of  last 

A.  The  election  took  place  on  January  fifteenth.  I  was  one  of 
those  elected.  There  were  five  Labor  men,  four  Sinn  Fein,  and  three 
Independents.  The  results  of  the  poll  were  declared  on  January 


Q.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  a  little  more  about  Thurles  before 
you  get  to  the  actual  occurrences.     Are  there  churches  in  Thurles? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  are  very  fine  churches  there — a  cathedral 
and  an  archbishopric. 

Q.     Is  there  a  Protestant  church  as  well? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  known  as  Saint  Mary's  Church.  Canon  Wilson 
is  there. 

Q.     Is  there  a  Protestant  population  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  quite  small. 

Q.     How  about  the  surrounding  country? 

A.     In  the  surrounding  country  there  are  a  few  more  Protestants. 

Q.  Do  the  members  of  the  surrounding  country  worship  in 

A.     They  do. 

Q.     And  the  cemetery — ? 

A.  The  cemetery  of  all  of  Thurles  is  here  in  the  grounds  of  the 
Protestant  Church.  Saint  Mary's  Church.  The  Catholics  are  in- 
terred there. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  ahout  the  business  population?  Do 
non-Catholics  carry  on  trading  with  Catholics? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  know  of  a  woman,  a  non-Catholic,  who  carries 
on  the  largest  trade  in  town. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Just  a  word.  Has  there  been  a  conflict  be- 
tween the  people  of  Thurles  at  any  time  since  you  have  been  there 
based  on  religious  prejudices  or  religious  differences  between  the 

A.  Quite  the  contrary.  There  have  always  been  the  most 
friendly  relations  between  the  peoples  of  all  religions  in  Thurles. 
In  fact,  the  chairman  of  the  Urban  Council,  who  had  been  the  whole 
time  president  for  the  past  twenty-five  years,  was  a  Protestant. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  to  the  character  of  the  people  of 
Thurles:  is  it  a  lawabiding  place? 

A.     Very. 

Q.     You  say  it  is  a  city  of  five  thousand  inhabitants? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  the  twelve  years  of  your  residence,  has  there  ever 
been  a  murder  trial  there? 

A.     None. 

Q.     Has  there  ever  been  a  case  of  assault  to  commit  murder? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Has  there  ever  been  a  burglary? 

A.     If  you  mean  a  petty  larceny — 

Q.     No,  a  serious  breaking  in — 

A.     No,  I  think  not. 

Q.  Has  there  been,  in  the  entire  time  that  you  were  there,  a  case 
of  forgery,  rape,  embezzlement,  or  any  of  the  major  felonies? 

A.     No.  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.      Have  there  been  courts  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Please  describe,  up  to  the  time  that  I  understand  what  had 
been  the  regular  government  courts  were  abandoned,  what  sort  of 
courts  you  had  and  how  they  were  operated? 

A.      We   have    what    are    known    as    petty    sessions    courts,    sitting 


about  once  a  week,  presided  over  by  one  of  the  R.  M.'s — the  resident 

Q.     What  is  the  character  of  these  magistrates? 

A.     The  R.  M.'s  are  appointed  by  the  Government. 

Q.  Did  the  resident  magistrate  who  presided  over  the  Thurles 
court  live  in  Thurles? 

A.  He  did.  We  have  certain  gentlemen  who  get  the  position  of 
justice  of  the  peace.  They  are  allowed  to  sit  on  the  bench  also. 
If  the  resident  magistrate  is  not  present,  then  the  senior  member 
of  the  justices  of  the  peace  can  take  his  place. 

Q.  Please  state  to  the  Commission  the  general  character  of  the 
litigation  that  takes  place  in  these  courts. 

A.  At  these  weekly  petty  sessions  the  general  matter  is  of  such 
nature  as  stray  animals  on  the  road,  or  a  man  going  home  at  night 
without  a  light  on  his  car,  or  a  certain  man  going  home  that  had 
been  imbibing  during  the  day  too  freely. 

Q.     What  was  the  nature  of  the  punishments  in  these  courts? 

A.  There  would  be  a  fine  of,  say,  five  shillings  imposed.  Or, 
if  a  man  had  trouble  with  a  neighbor,  he  might  be  bound  to  keep 
the  peace. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Who  appoints  these  justices  of  the  peace? 

A.  Dublin  Castle,  the  representative  of  the  English  Government 
in  Ireland. 

Q.     Then  they  are  Government  officials? 

A.     They  are. 


Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Are  there  military  barracks  in  Thurles? 

A.  There  had  not  been  up  to  the  last  two  years.  The  hospital 
we  had  there  was  commandeered  by  the  military  and  has  been  fitted 
up  by  them  as  the  military  barracks. 

Q.     Prior  to  that  time  what  was  the  method  of  policing  Thurles? 

A.  There  were  fifteen  or  twenty  police  under  the  district 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  appointed  them? 

A.     They  are  Government  appointees. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  wish  that  in  your  own  way  you  would 
state  to  the  Commission  the  constitution  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary; whether  or  not  they  are  residents  of  the  district  in  which 
they  operate;  the  character  of  the  arms  used  by  them;  and  a  resume 
of  the  entire  organization  of  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary. 

A.     The  system  as  regards  appointing  the  men  to  a  place  is  that 


the  native  of  the  county  where  the  police  are  is  never  appointed 
to  that  county.  If  a  Tipperary  man  joins  the  police  force,  he  will 
be  sent  to  any  county  outside  of  Tipperary.  So  that  you  have  no 
such  thing  in  Ireland,  even  prior  to  1910,  as  a  local  police  ap- 
pointed by  any  power  in  that  community.  They  all  came  from 
some  other  place. 

Q.     Did  the  Town  Council  have  any  authority  over  the  police? 

A.     None  whatever. 

Q.  So  that  the  administration  of  justice  and  the  preservation  of 
peace  and  order  was  entirely  under  the  control  of  the  British 

A.  Yes,  sir.  If  a  constable  of  the  county  married  a  girl  in  that 
county,  he  was  immediately  removed  from  that  county. 

Q.     He  was  removed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How   do  these  constables  patrol  now? 

A.  They  go  in  lots  of  eight,  each  man  carrying  a  carbine,  the 
man  on  the  right  with  a  rifle  and  the  man  on  the  left  with  a  shot- 
gun.    They  carry  revolvers  in  their  belts. 

Q.     Where  are  they  located  at  the  present  time? 

A.     In  the  barracks,  which  is  at  one  end  of  the  town. 

Q.     Describe  what  implements  of  warfare  they  have. 

A.  They  are  served  out  hand  grenades  and  rifles  and  shotguns 
and  also  revolvers. 

Q.     Do  they  have  machine  guns? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  always  have  machine  guns  in  the  barracks. 
All  the  barracks  are  sandbagged. 

Q.     Do  they  have  materials  for  barricades? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     They  have  barbed   wire  and  the  like. 


Q.  Unless  there  is  some  other  background  in  regard  to  the 
situation  you  desire  to  state,  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  election. 
Was  it  an  orderly  election? 

A.     Perfectly  orderly. 

Q.  Prior  to  that  time,  had  you  had  any  trouble  at  your  elections, 
or  were  they  always  orderly? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  always  orderly. 

Q.     They  were  carried  on  in  good  temper  by  the  people? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  always. 

Q.     Relate  what   incidents  in   regard   to   the  situation   you   think 


would  be  interesting  to  the  Commission,  in  regard  to  the  political 
organization.  Suggest  the  method,  or  begin  with  your  own  election 
and  the  constitution  of  your  council  and  the  conduct  of  your 

A.  As  I  stated  before,  the  election  took  place  on  the  fifteenth 
of  January  and  the  polls  were  declared  on  the  sixteenth.  There 
were  five  Labor  members,1  four  Republicans,  and  three  independents 

Q.     How  were  they  elected? 

A.     All  elected  on  the  proportional  representation  system. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  does  not  mean  that  these  Labor  people 
got  the  largest  vote  necessarily.  It  means  that  under  the  system 
of  proportional  representation  each  party  had  to  have  a  certain 
number  of  members  on  the  council  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Does  that  system  prevail  all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  town  councils  and  urban  councils  and  county  councils 
use  the  proportional  representation  system? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  poor-law  guardians  are  also  elected  in  the 
same  way. 

Q.  You  stated  that  a  non-Catholic  citizen  had  been  chairman  of 
the  council  for  the  last  twenty-five  years? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  electorate  was  Catholic  and  what 
non-Catholic  during  those  years? 

A.     The  non-Catholic  amounted  to  about  twelve. 

Q.     Twelve  per  cent? 

A.     No,  twelve  persons. 

Q.  During  the  twenty-five  years  that  a  non-Catholic  was  presi- 
dent of  the  town  council? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  same  gentleman  carried  on  one  of  the  largest 
businesses  in  the  town. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Now,  go  ahead  with  the  organization  of 
the  council. 

A.  The  first  meeting  of  the  council  was  fixed  for  the  thirtieth  of 
January  in  order  to  appoint  a  chairman. 

Q.  Were  you  acting  under  the  English  statutes  or  under  the 
statutes  of  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.  We  were  acting  under  the  rules  for  elections  laid  down  by 
the  Local  Government  Board. 

The  Irish  Labor  party  is  officially  committed  to   Irish  independence,  and 
national  issues  is  allied  with  the  Republicans. 


Q.     What  is  the  Local  Government  Board? 

A.  The  Local  Government  Board  is  a  system  brought  in  by  the 
English  Government  for  extending  to  the  Irish  people  more  freedom 
in  their  own  affairs.     It  has  been  in  force  for  many  years. 

Q.  So  that  the  Local  Government  Board  could  arrange  the  elec- 
tion under  the  proportional   representation   principle? 

A.     \es,  sir. 

Q.     And  it  was  under  that  Board  that  you  elected  these  officers? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  the  Local  Government  Board  were  officials  appointed  by 
the  British  Government? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  In  fact,  that  proportional  representation  law  was 
passed  in  the  House  of  Commons. 

Q.  And  this  election  was  held  under  laws  and  machinery  that 
had  been  existing  in  Ireland  for  many  years? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.     Now,  about  the  election  of  a  chairman? 

A.  The  election  of  a  chairman  was  fixed  for  the  thirtieth  of 
January,  fifteen  days  after  the  polls  were  declared.  At  that  meet- 
ing a  chairman  was  to  be  elected  by  majority  vote  of  the  council. 
On  the  night  it  was  to  take  place,  just  as  I  was  going  to  the  meeting. 
I  was  arrested. 

Q.     Where  were  you  arrested? 

A.      In  my  own  home. 

Q.     By  whom? 

A.     By  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.1 

Q.     How  many? 

A.     Eight  armed  men. 

Q.  Describe  just  what  took  place,  what  hour  it  was,  and  how 
they  approached  you  and  your  family. 

A.  It  was  just  about  the  hour  of  six-thirty  in  the  evening.  The 
meeting  was  fixed  for  seven.  I  remember  it  well.  I  heard  a  knock 
at  the  door,  and  as  I  opened  it  a  hand  was  placed  on  my  shoulder. 
A  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  said,  "I  arrest  you."  I 
said,  "On  what  charge?"  He  said,  "On  the  orders  of  His  Majesty's 

Q.     Did  he  read  a  paper,  any  paper? 

1  The  Royal   Irish   Constabulary   is   the   Imperial    British   police   force 
Ireland.     See  index. 


A.     No,  sir. 

Q.      Describe  your  own  home  and  the  members  of  your  family 
who  live  there.     You  live  there  with  a  wife  and  two  children? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  ages  of  the  boys? 
A.     One  five  years  and  the  other  was  two. 


Q.     Were  your  wife  and  children  in  good  health  at  that  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  child  of  five  years  was  very  healthy.  My  wife 
was  approaching  her  confinement.  On  the  twentieth  of  January, 
before  the  arrest  took  place,  about  eleven  ten,  my  wife  was  in  bed 
and  my  boy  of  five  years  was  in  the  cot.  I  had  put  out  the  light 
and  had  got  ready  to  go  to  bed  when  I  heard  shooting  going  on  in 
the  town.  My  house  is  about  five  hundred  yards  from  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  barracks.  It  is  on  one  of  the  corners  of  the 
street  facing  up  toward  the  town.  The  town  contains  a  large  square 
— Liberty  Square,  they  call  it. 

Q.     What  had  been  the  name  of  it  prior  to  this? 

A.  It  was  known  as  the  Main  Street,  but  it  was  changed  by  the 
new  council,  which  changed  most  of  the  names  of  the  streets. 

Mr.  Walsh:  Proceed. 

The  Witness:  On  the  side  of  the  house  facing  toward  this  Liberty 
Square  there  are  seven  windows.  All  the  rooms  are  exposed  toward 
it.  On  the  front  there  are  six  windows  looking  out  into  the  street. 
When  I  heard  the  shooting  first  I  thought  it  was  only  isolated  shots, 
and  then  I  heard  heavy  volleys.  So  I  said  to  my  wife,  "We  must 
get  out  of  this  room  immediately.  If  there  are  any  stray  shots,  we 
shall  be  in  danger."  We  hastily  got  out  of  bed  and  got  down  to 
a  lower  basement  where  it  was  fairly  good  protection  from  the 
side  and  also  from  the  front,  because  we  were  in  the  back.  I  went 
back  and  got  the  youngster  out  of  his  cot.  I  had  to  go  on  all  fours 
lest  a  bullet  should  come  in.  I  dragged  him  down  and  had  to  go 
back  for  some  clothes  to  cover  us.  All  that  time  the  firing  was 
going  on  heavily.     And  it  got  nearer  and  nearer. 

Q.     Had  any  of  the  bullets  struck  your  place? 

A.  Not  up  to  that  time.  Just  as  I  got  inside  the  basement  with 
the  clothes  I  heard  bullets  hitting  the  house.  There  was  a  door 
there  facing  the  street.  The  bullets  came  in  through  the  hall  and 
swished  by  the  door  where  we  were  standing.  We  heard  the  glass 
going  and  the  plaster  falling  off  the  ceiling. 

Q.     The  glass  of  your  own  house? 


A.  Yes,  sir.  I  placed  my  wife  and  the  little  boy  flat  on  the 
floor.  We  tried  to^protect  ourselves  as  well  as  we  could.  It  was  a 
miserably  cold  night.  My  wife,  in  her  condition,  being  within 
two  weeks  of  her  confinement,  was  in  a  terror-stricken  state.  We 
lay  there.  The  firing  continued.  The  heavy  volley  we  heard  out- 
side seemed  to  pierce  every  window  in  the  house.  Then  the  firing 
moved  back  to  town  again.  It  lasted  altogether  for  about  an  hour, 
and  it  stopped.  We  remained  in  the  same  position,  anxious  to  know 
if  it  would  break  out  any  more.  In  half  an  hour's  time  it  started 
again,  but  on  the  second  occasion  it  did  not  last  so  long.  Only  about 
ten  minutes.  We  could  not  stir  from  the  position  we  were  in 
because  we  did  not  know  at  what  moment  it  would  break  out  again. 
So  that  we  had  to  lie  on  the  stone  floor  all  night. 


Q.  Did  you  go  out  in  the  morning  to  make  an  examination  of 
the  city? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  crowd  outside  my  house  looking  up 
at  the  front  of  it  and  wanting  to  know  if  we  were  all  alive.  I 
examined  the  front  there,  and  every  window  in  the  house  had  been 
pierced  by  bullets.  Some  struck  the  doors.  I  counted  twenty-one 
of  them.  Inside  the  rooms  the  ceilings  were  all  torn  and  the  wood- 
work was  all  shattered.  There  was  debris  lying  on  the  floor  and 
all  around.  I  proceeded  up  town  to  see  who  had  been  killed,  and 
the  whole  street  was  littered  with  plate  glass  shattered  by  shots 
along  the  side  of  the  large  square — both  by  breaking  and  by  rifle 
shots.  The  newspaper  office,  to  which  I  proceeded,  had  been  shat- 
tered by  hand  grenades.  Just  inside  the  window  you  could  see  the 
large  holes  in  the  floor  where  they  bursted.  In  several  shops  the 
glass  was  completely  broken. 

Q.     Could  you  see  who  carried  on  this  firing? 

A.     I  did  not  attempt  to  put  out  my  head. 

Q.  All  you  know  about  it  was  what  you  ascertained  the  next 

A.  Yes.  The  statements  made  by  the  inhabitants  were  that  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  had  come  out  of  the  barracks  and  had 
gone  down  the  street,  and  were  acting  under  orders.  Several  people 
told  me  they  had  orders  given  to  them. 

Q.  Were  there  any  soldiers  employed  in  addition  to  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     There  were. 


Q.     Who  was  the  District   Inspector? 

A.     District  Inspector  Golden. 

Q.     He  was  in  charge  of  the  military  proper? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  could  not  tell  you  that. 

Q.     That  was  on  the  fifteenth? 

A.  On  the  twentieth — the  night  of  the  twentieth  and  the  morning 
of  the  twenty-first. 

Q.     And  your  election  came  on  the  thirtieth? 

A.     Yes. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  It  would  he  well  to  carry  this  on  chronologi- 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   The  election   was  on   the  fifteenth? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     But  the  election  of  the  chairman   was  on   the  thirtieth? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  chairman  is  elected  at  the  first  statutory  meeting  of  the 
council,  is  he? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  at  the  first  statutory  meeting. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Prior  to  January  twentieth  and  those  dis- 
turbances that  you  have  described,  were  there  any  actions  on  the 
part  of  the  people  of  that  town  of  a  lawless  character,  or  any  dis- 
turbances of  the  peace,  or  anything  that  would  appear  to  be  a 
justification  for  an  attack  on  that  town? 

A.  In  the  morning  I  ascertained  that  a  member  of  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  had  been   shot  the  evening  previous. 

Q.     Where  was  he  shot? 

A.     Back  of  the  main   square,  this  Liberty   Square. 

Q.     Do  you  know  by  whom  he  was   shot? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  But  the  night  before  there  had  been  a  member  of  the  Con- 
stabulary shot? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     That  was  what  I  heard  the  next  morning. 

Q.  And  the  attack  was  made  following  the  shooting  of  one  of 
the  members  of  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  a  row,  an  open  fight,  over  the  killing  of  this 
member  of  the  Constabulary? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.     Was  there  any  disturbance  of  any  kind? 


\.  No.  >ir.  In  the  country  towns  people  arc  not  <>nt  late  like 
in  the  large  cities.  By  half  after  ten  the  houses  are  all  closed  and 
the  people  in  bed.  Yon  would  nol  meet  anyone  in  the  streets.  By 
half  after  eleven  the  town  was  perfectly  quiet — no  one  on  the 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  disturbances  of  any  kind  or  any  assem- 
blies or  gatherings  of  a  lawless  character  previous  to  these  two 
events  ? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  So  that  after  the  shooting  of  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary  the  next  night  following  this  shooting  up  of  the  town 
was  done? 

A.     The  same  night.     It  all  occurred  on  the  same  night. 

Q.  You  learned  the  next  morning  that  it  all  occurred  on  the 
same  night? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  area  of  the  town  was  covered  by  this  shooting? 

A.     The  area  was  directly  along  the  main  thoroughfare. 

Q.     About  a  mile? 

A.     A  mile  and  a  half. 

Q.     Was  every  house  attacked  along  that  thoroughfare? 

A.     No,  only  certain  houses  were  attacked. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   About  how  many  in  number? 

A.     To  the  number  of  ten.  I  would  say. 


Q.     Were  there  any  business  houses  attacked? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Most  of  them  were  business  houses.  A  man  with 
a  large  trading  establishment  had  the  front  windows  shot  out  and 
bullets  through  the  upper  rooms.  Two  licensed  premises  on  the 
opposite  side  of  the  street  had  the  same — plate-glass  windows  shat- 
tered. Two  private  residences — mine  and  another  member  of  the 
Urban  Council — shot  up.  I  may  mention  that  of  the  members  of 
the  Urban  Council,  there  were  four  members  whose  houses  were 
attacked^on  that  night — four  newly  elected  members. 

Q.  Was  it  appparent  that  these  houses  were  picked  out  because 
of  the  political  opinions  of  the  owners? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  known  to  be  the  political  opinion  of  the  members 
of  the  Council   whose  houses  were  attacked? 

A.  They  were  all  known  to  be  associated  with  the  movement  for 
national  independence. 


Q.     And  they  were  all  among  the  local  leaders  of  the  movement? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  it  was  apparent  that  they  picked  out  those  who  were 
associated  with  this  movement? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  spoke  that  a  member  of  the  Irish 
Constabulary  was  shot.  Is  that  merely  hearsay,  or  do  you  know 
definitely  that  a  member  was  shot? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  we  knew  afterwards  that  there  was. 

Q.     You  knew  afterwards? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     He  was  shot  about  an  hour  previous  to  that  time. 

Q.     You  are  satisfied  that  one  was  shot? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     There  was  a  funeral  afterwards. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  these  Labor  members  who  were  elected 
to  the  Council  in  favor  of  a  republican  form  of  government  for 

A.     Yes,  all  of  them. 

Q.  How  many  were  in  favor  of  a  republican  form  of  gov- 

A.     Nine. 

Q.     They  were  unanimous? 

A.  No;  nine  out  of  twelve.  But  one  of  the  independent  men, 
who  was  in  opposition  to  a  republic,  is  now  in  favor  of  it. 

Q.     Where  is  the  town  of  Thurles? 

A.     In  the  heart  of  Ireland,  in  Tipperary. 

Q.     Is  it  a  seaport  town? 

A.     No;  well  inland. 

Q.      In  what  province? 

A.     Province  of  Munster. 

Chairman  Howe:  That  takes  us  to  the  approaching  election  of  the 
chairman  of  the  Town  Council  and  his  arrest. 


The  Witness:  Previous  to  that  let  me  state  that  the  morning  after 
the  shooting  we  had  a  visit  from  the  members  of  the  English  Labor 
Party,  who  were  sent  over  to  Ireland  to  look  into  affairs.  It  hap- 
pened that  they  came  along  at  twelve  o'clock  of  that  day  and  passed 
through  the  town  on  their  way  to  the  hotel  from  the  station.  They 
saw  the  damage  and  issued  a  statement  that  evening. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Who  were  the  members  of  this  mission? 


A.     Mr.  Arthur  Henderson,  Mr.  Adamson,  and  several  others. 

Q.     Have  you  their  statement? 

A.  I  did  not  bring  it  with  me.  I  did  not  know  whether  it  would 
be  permitted  to  bring  papers  with  me. 

Q.     What  was  the  nature  of  that  statement? 

A.  They  said  that  they  had  been  in  Flanders,  and  the  scene  they 
saw  in  Thurles  that  day  was  worse  than  anything  they  had  seen 
in  Flanders. 

Q.     What  was  the  effect  of  this  on  the  people  in  your  own  home? 

A.     My  wife  suffered  a  nervous  breakdown. 

Q.     And  the  child? 

A.  The  little  boy  was  very  frightened.  He  was  in  a  very  nervous 
state  as  a  result. 


Q.     And  your  arrest? 

A.  On  January  twenty-third  I  happened  to  be  investigating  one 
of  the  houses  that  had  been  shot  up.  I  was  talking  to  the  man  at 
the  door  when  eight  members  of  the  Irish  Constabulary  came  along 
and  asked  me  what  I  was  doing  on  the  streets  after  six  in  the 
evening.  I  told  them  that  I  was  talking  to  this  man.  They  said  I 
had  no  business  to  be  on  the  streets. 

Q.     Were  you  then  a  member  of  the  town  council? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  elected  on  the  fifteenth.  Had  you  yet  taken  the 
oath  of  office?     When  did  you  officially  become  a  member.? 

A.     On  the  date  of  the  election,  the  fifteenth. 

Q.  So  at  the  time  these  eight  officers  intercepted  you,  you  were 
performing  a  duty  of  an  officer  of  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  ordered  to  proceed  home.  I  met  my  wife 
and  child  coming  up  the  street.  She  asked  me  to  come  back  to  one 
of  the  shops.  They  came  along  after  me.  We  crossed  the  square 
and  they  followed  us  and  remained  outside.  I  said  to  my  wife 
that  we  had  better  go  home.  And  they  followed  us  until  I  got  inside 
my  own  house,  and  then  they  departed. 

Q.     Were  there  any   disturbances   at  that  time? 

A.  Oh,  no.  All  the  disturbance  was  over.  That  was  two  days 
after  the  shooting. 

Q.  Were  you  not  allowed  on  the  streets  at  night?  Was  that  a 
continuous  order  of  the  authorities? 

A.     It  was  no  order  at  all.     Everybody  was  doing  their  business 


on  the  streets.  I  was  accosted  because  I  was  talking  to  this  man 
at  the  door. 

Q.     Were  you  ever  on  the  town  council  before? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     But  you  were  a  school  teacher  in  the  town  for  twelve  years? 

A.  Yes.  On  the  morning  of  the  twenty-fourth  I  received  a  letter 
in  a  disguised  handwriting  saying:  "You  will  depart  this  life  if 
you  do  not  leave  this  town  within  twenty-four  hours,"  signed 
"Vengeance."  I  received  that  on  Saturday  morning,  the  twenty- 
fourth,  I  think  it  was.  I  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  the  letter. 
Things  kept  on  quietly  for  the  next  week. 

Q.     You  have  no  knowlege  of  the  authenticity  of  that  letter? 

A.  INo,  sir;  no  direct  knowledge.  But  I  have  a  very  good  idea 
of  where  it  came  from.  On  the  thirtieth  this  meeting  of  the  council 
was  to  take  place,  the  statutory  meeting  at  which  the  chairman  was. 
to  be  elected.  I  was  arrested,  as  I  said.  I  asked  the  charge.  They 
said  there  was  no  charge;  only  Government  orders.  I  was  marched 
up  to  the  town  surrounded  on  both  sides  by  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary. I  was  marched  away  up  to  the  other  end  of  the  town  to 
the  police  barracks.  I  was  brought  inside  and  all  the  contents  of 
my  pockets  turned  inside  out.  This  threatening  letter  I  got  on  the 
Saturday  previous  was  among  the  letters  I  had  in  my  pockets.  All 
these  documents  were  taken  away  after  being  gone  through  by  the 
police.  I  afterwards  received  them  all  back  with  the  exception  of 
the  threatening  letter.     I  never  received  that  threatening  letter  back. 

I  was  left  about  an  hour  in  the  cell  in  the  police  barracks,  and 
then  I  was  taken  to  Templemore,  about  seven  miles  from  our  place, 
to  the  large  military  barracks  there.  We  were  surrounded  by  armed 
soldiers  in  motor  lorries. 


Q.     How  many  prisoners? 

A.     There  was  Mr.Tulane,  another  member  of  the  Urban  Council. 

Q.     What  is  his  business? 

A.     He  carries  on  a  large  business  as  a  seller  of  hides. 

Q.     What  party  was  he  elected  on? 

A.  He  was  elected  on  the  Republican  Party.  And  then  there 
was  a  Labor  member.  He  was  organizer  for  the  Thurles  Irish 
Transport  Workers'  Union. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     Eamon  Hayes.     And  then  another  chap  named  Eustice. 


Q.     What  parties  did  these  two  others  belong  to? 

A.  The  organizer  was  a  Labor  man  and  the  other  chap  was-  a 

Q.     The  whole  four  were  in  favor  of  a  Republic? 

A.  Yes.  We  were  handcuffed  in  pairs,  placed  in  motor  lorries, 
and  taken  to  Templemore  and  thrown  into  cells  there.  At  midnight 
we  were  taken  out  by  armed  soldiers,  handcuffed  all  the  time  in 
pairs,  and  proceeded  to  Limerick,  which  we  reached  about  three 
o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q.     How  far  is  Limerick? 

A.  About  forty  miles.  We  were  handcuffed  there  until  about 
eight  in  the  morning.  We  were  then  put  in  motor  lorries,  again 
handcuffed,  and  carried  to  Cork  jail,  which  we  reached  about  eight 
in  the  evening.  We  were  put  into  cells  there.  The  second  of 
February  we  reached  Cork.  On  the  fourth  of  February  I  got  a 
telegram  announcing  the  birth  of  the  son. 

Q.     You  got  a  telegram  on  the  fourth  of  February? 

On  the  fourth  of  February. 

And  you  were  arrested  when? 

On  the  thirtieth  of  January. 

That  was  the  first  word  you  had  received  from  home? 

Yes,  sir. 

How  did  they  know  where  you  were? 

There  were  people  who  had  seen  us  on  the  way  and  it  was 

announced  in  all  the  papers. 


Q.     Up  to  this  time  was  there  any  information  given  you  or  any 
other  man  with  you  as  to  the  reason  why  you  were  arrested,  or  the 


charge  against  y 

A.  No.  They  refused  to  give  us  that.  In  fact,  we  did  not  know 
our  destination.     We  were  simply  taken   away. 

Q.     Your  family  or  the  townspeople  were  not  advised? 

A.     Oh,  no.     Nobody  knew. 

Q.     Was  there  any  indictment  against  you?    Were  you  ever  tried? 

A.  Oh,  no,  sir.  We  were  taken  from  Cork  on  the  eighth  of 
February  at  about  four-thirty  in  the  morning.  We  were  told  to  pick 
up.  I  asked  the  warden  where  we  were  going,  and  he  said  he  did 
not  know.  We  were  lined  up  in  a  procession  of  fourteen  motor 
lorries  preceded  by  an  armed  car.  Four  prisoners  handcuffed  in 
pairs  were  put  in  each  motor  lorry,  and  the  car  was  then  filled  up 
with  armed  soldiers  wearins  helmets  and   fixed  bavonets. 


Q.     How  many  prisoners? 

A.  Fifty-five  in  our  batch.  We  were  brought  down  to  Cove,  that 
was  formerly  Queenstown,  and  we  were  put  on  two  lighters,  two 
tenders,  and  shipped  out  into  the  bay,  where  there  were  two  war 
sloops  waiting  for  us.  We  went  aboard  the  first  sloop  and  had  to 
cross  from  the  deck  of  this  sloop  onto  the  next  sloop.  The  hand- 
cuffs were  not  removed.  The  captain  of  the  second  sloop  said  he 
would  not  permit  any  prisoner  to  pass  the  gangway  of  his  sloop 
until  the  handcuffs  were  removed,  because  it  was  too  dangerous. 
We  were  brought  across  to  Milford  Haven,  where  a  special  train 
was  waiting  for  us,  and  carried  us  on  to  London.  As  we  went 
aboard  the  war  sloop  an  officer  came  along  and  read  out  a  document 
which  said  that  whereas  I  was  an  individual  who  had  acted  or  was 
acting  or  was  about  to  act  in  a  manner  prejudicial  to  the  peace  of 
the  realm,  I  was  a  fit  person  for  deportation.  That  was  the  purport 
of  the  document,  but  it  did  not  state  any  charge. 

Q.     How  long  were  you  handcuffed  continuously? 

A.     Practically  twenty-four  hours. 

Q.     Handcuffed  to  the  other  men? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.       Where  did  they  put  you  in  the  ship? 

A.  Down  in  the  hold.  Away  down  in  a  little  square  hole  just 
large  enough  for  a  man's  body  to  go  down. 

Q.     How  many  in  the  hold? 

A.     Thirty-five  prisoners. 

Q.     And  ventilation? 

A.     No  sort  at  all. 

Q.     None  otherwise  than  the  hatch? 

A.  No,  sir.  Some  of  the  men  were  practically  lifeless  when 
they  got  across.  One  of  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabu- 
lary force  came  down  with  us  before  we  started,  and  he  had  to  be 
carried  out  in  about  five  minutes. 

Q.     The  air  was  foul? 

A.     Very  foul. 


I  was  interned  up  at  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison  about  the  second 
of  April.  There  was  sickness  in  my  family.  If  a  man  interned 
there  had  one  of  his  relations  who  were  sick,  it  was  the  common 
custom  that  a  man  would  apply  for  leave  to  go  home,  giving  his 
parole  that  he  would  come  back  by  a  certain  date.  There  had  been 
about  six  paroles  before  this  date.     Every  one  had  been  kept.     One 


chap  got  a  telegram  that  his  mother  was — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Where  did  you  say  you  were? 

A.     In  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison. 

Q.     Where  is  this  prison  located? 

A.     In  London,  in  Shepherds'  Close  district. 

Q.     How  large  is  it? 

A.  Very  large.  I  think  it  would  hold  about  two  thousand 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Have  they  workshops  in  it — make  brushes 
and  the  like? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.      It  is  a  combined  jail  and  penitentiary  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     About  paroles? 

A.  Oh.  yes.  This  chap  got  word  that  his  mother  was  dead  in 
Cork.  He  just  had  time  to  ask  for  leave  and  to  catch  the  Saturday 
boat,  and  had  to  take  a  motor  about  forty  miles  into  the  country. 
He  just  got  there  and  met  the  funeral  of  his  mother.  He  came  back 
in  three  days,  and  had  previously  applied  for  extension  of  parole 
and  had  not  got  word  of  it.  He  reached  the  prison  gate  and  was 
just  talking  and  shaking  hands  when  he  learned  that  his  parole 
was  extended,  and  then  he  went  off  again.  That  was  the  system. 
Every  man  got  a  parole  who  had  reason  for  it.  On  the  second  of 
April  I  got  word  that  my  son  was  dying. 

Q.     Which  son  was  that? 

A.  The  oldest.  I  immediately  applied  for  a  parole  to  go  home 
because  my  little  boy  was  dying.  No  reply  came  to  that  applica- 
tion;   it  wasn't   granted.      Another   telegram   came. 

Q.     Meantime,  had  you  heard  of  the  condition  of  your  son? 

A.  Yes,  I  got  word  from  my  wife  that  he  was  still  dying.  On 
the  ninth  I  got  a  telegram  that  the  child  was  dead.  I  sent  in  another 
application  for  parole.  He  had  died  on  Friday  night,  and  was  to 
be  buried  on  Sunday,  so  that  I  just  had  time  to  get  there.  I  got  no 
answer  until  five-thirty  in  the  evening.  Then  the  warden  came  along 
and  said,  "I'm  very  sorry,  I've  got  this  document  to  read  to  you." 
The  document  was  that  the  Irish  Government  could  not  see  its  way 
clear  to  grant  the  parole  to  Mr.  Morgan. 

Q.     The  Irish  Government? 

A.  Yes,  the  Irish  Government,  the  government  set  up  at  Dublin 
Castle  by  the  English — what  we  call  the  Castle. 

Q.     The  child  was  buried  in  your  absence? 

A.  Yes.  I  tried  to  get  word  through  to  my  wife.  I  sent  her 
word,  but  she  did  not  get  it.     The  first  word  she  got  was  from  the 


stop   press   news   in   the   papers.      The   child   was   buried   the   next 
evening  in  the  cemetery  of  the  Protestant  church  of  which  I  spoke. 


Q.     Did  the  election  of  the  chairman  of  the  council  proceed? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  night  I  was  arrested,  while  I  was  still  in  the 
lockup  in  the  Irish  Constabulary  barracks,  the  news  reached  me 
that  the  election  had  taken  place  and  I  was  elected  chairman.  There 
were  two  candidates,  myself  and  Mr.  Tulane,  who  was  along  with 
me  in  the  cell. 

Q.     Was  it  known  that  there  were  two  candidates? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  known  before  you  were  arrested  that  you  were  can- 

A.     Yes,  sir.     Everyone  knew  it. 

Q.  So  that  the  two  men  arrested  were  known  to  be  the  candi- 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Had  it  been  published  in  the  local  press? 

A.     In  the  Star,  yes. 

Q.  How  many  votes  did  you  receive  from  the  eleven  members 

A.  There  were  not  eleven  members  present.  There  were  two  of 
us  in  the  lockup  cell  and  there  were  two  men  on  the  run. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  there  were  two  other  members  who  were 
eluding  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  being  looked  for.  The  police  went 
down  and  looked  into  the  meeting  and  did  not  find  the  men  they 
wanted  and  left. 

Q.     What  was  the  vote? 

A.     Four  to  three  was  the  vote. 


One  thing  more  about  while  we  were  in  prison.  On  the  twenty- 
fifth  of  April  we  put  in  a  demand  to  the  Government  that  we  be 
tried  oh  some  charge  or  other.  We  demanded  to  be  brought  to  trial 
or  else  released.  They  refused.  We  got  no  answer  to  the  demand, 
and  we  went  on  hunger  strike.  We  refused  to  take  any  food  in  the 
prison  until  we  were  released  or  tried.  Two  hundred  of  us  went 
on  hunger  strike  at  this  time.  When  some  of  the  men  began  to  get 
exhausted  and  were  collapsing,  we  asked  the  governor  of  the  jail 


if  he  would  leave  the  cell  doors  open  in  the  night-time  so  that  those 
of  us  who  were  not  in  as  had  state  as  the  rest,  we  could  look  after 
them.  That  request  was  refused,  and  we  broke  down  the  doors  that 
night.  So  we  were  taken  out  of  the  cells  where  we  were  and  thrown 
into  what  are  called  punishment  cells.  We  were  three  days  on 
hunger  strike  at  this  time,  and  were  getting  pretty  weak.  These 
punishment  cells  are  in  the  basement,  low  down.  They  had  not 
been  opened  for  twenty  years,  I  think.  They  were  very  small  and 
close  and  the  dust  was  thick  in  them. 

Q.     What  was  the  size  of  those  cells? 

A.  Twelve  feet  by  eight,  I  suppose.  We  were  left  there  for  four 
days.  The  conditions  were  bad  there.  We  were  never  given  any 
water  to  wash  ourselves  or  anything  else.  We  were  left  in  a  filthy 

Q.     How  many  days  were  you  in  those  cells? 

A.  Four.  I  was  taken  out  of  the  cells  in  the  low  basement  and 
placed  in  the  very  top  of  the  house,  up  four  flights  of  stairs.  We 
could  take  a  little  exercise  at  certain  times  of  the  day,  walking  out 
of  the  cells  and  down  into  the  yard  and  walking  back  again.  I  used 
to  do  this  until  my  legs  gave  way  due  to  hunger.  I  was  then  locked 
up.  None  of  the  doors  were  ever  opened  after  that.  The  doctor 
came  along  and  asked  me  to  take  some  medicine,  and  I  said,  "No, 
not  so  long  as  I  am  in  the  prison.  As  soon  as  I  am  out  of  the  prison 
gate,  I  will  take  medicine."  He  tried  to  force  it  down  my  lips,  but 
I  threw  the  glass  out  of  his  hand.  The  next  day  at  twelve  o'clock 
a  man  arrived  and  said  to  me  that  an  ambulance  was  waiting  outside 
for  us.  He  did  not  tell  us  where  we  were  going  or  anything  else. 
They  brought  us  to  the  ambulance  and  took  us  to  St.  James  Hospital. 

Q.     What  hospital  was  that? 

A.  St.  James  Hospital,  in  London,  near  Wormwood  Scrubbs  jail. 
We  were  in  the  hospital  then  for  about  three  weeks.  We  never  got 
a  thing  when  we  left.  I  may  tell  you  that  upon  leaving  the  jail, 
we  were  simply  taken  out  of  the  bed  and  put  into  the  ambulance. 
We  had  no  clothes.  The  money  we  had  on  us  when  we  were  arrested 
was  taken  at  the  prison  gate.  Our  watches  were  also  taken.  When 
we  came  out,  we  got  back  none  of  our  property  or  our  money.  We 
were  three  weeks  in  the  hospital. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  get  your  money  back? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  eventually.  Another  thing  was  that  if  a  man  was 
released  from  a  prison  in  England,  he  had  to  be  sent  back  to  Ireland. 
You  got  a  voucher  to  bring  you  back  to  the  place  where  you  were 
arrested.  When  we  came  out  of  the  hospital  we  asked  for  a  voucher 
and  for  our  watches  and  our  money.     They  were  all   refused, 


Q.     How,  then,  did  you  get  back  home? 

A.  Fortunately  some  of  us  had  friends  in  London,  so  that  we 
got  some  money  and  got  home.  We  kept  applying  and  applying, 
and  finally  after  six  weeks  I  got  my  money  back.  But  we  were  never 
paid  for  our  railway  fare. 


The  result  was  that  I  took  up  my  position  on  the  Urban  Council 
in  June.  There  was  a  great  assembly  called  of  all  the  public  bodies 
in  the  county  to  appoint  judges  for  the  Republican  system  of  arbi- 
tration courts.  The  government  courts  of  Thurles  had  fallen  into 
disuse  for  about  twelve  months  past.  These  courts  were  all  practi- 
cally falling  into  disuse  altogether. 

Q.  By  reason  of  the  fact  that  the  military  authorities  were  assum- 
ing control  of  all  disorders? 

A.  No,  by  reason  of  the  fact  that  the  people  were  refusing  to  go 
into  these  courts. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  means  in  civil  cases.  But  were  not  the 
police  arresting  citizens  and  bringing  them  into  these  other  courts? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  These  petty  offenses  of  which  you  spoke,  where  were  they 

A.     In  these  petty  sessions  courts. 

Q.     But  all  the  civil  cases  were  not  tried  there? 

A.  No.  The  weekly  sessions  fell  through.  They  were  not  held 
any  more  because  of  the  fact  that  there  was  nothing  for  them 
to  do.     The  people  wouldn't  use  them. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Are  there  any  lawyers  in  Thurles? 

A.     Oh,  yes.    We  have  four  lawyers. 

Q.     They  formerly  practiced  in  these  petty  courts? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.     What  do  they  do  now? 

A.     They  go  into  the  Republican  courts. 

Q.     How  about  this  meeting,  this  assembly? 

A.  We  called  a  meeting  of  the  whole  constituency.  That  is,  a 
village  area  takes  up  the  whole  council.  We  called  a  meeting  of  all 
the  governing  bodies. 

Q.     What  governing  bodies? 

A.  The  urban  council,  the  district  council,  the  labor  bodies,  and 
other  public  bodies.  We  got  them  all  to  send  representatives  to  the 
assembly  at  Thurles.     At  that  meeting  they  appointed  five  judges. 

Q.     Who  were  these  judges? 


A.  Five  citizens — Mr.  O'Byrne,  Mr.  Dwyer,  Mr.  Leady,  Father 
O'Brien,  and  Mr.  Hassett. 

Q.     Could  vou  give  the  husinesses  of  these  men? 

A.  Yes.  Mr.  O'Byrne  is  a  barrister,  Mr.  Dwyer  a  farmer,  Mr. 
Hassett  is  also  a  farmer,  and  Father  O'Brien  is  a  local  priest. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  May  I  ask  the  witness?  You  said  there 
were  two  hundred  people  in  the  jail  at  the  time  you  were.  Were 
two  hundred  men  arrested  as  you  were?  Where  were  they  from 
and  what  was  the  cause  of  their  arrest? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  were  fifty-five  deported  on  the  first  occasion. 
Every  day  there  were  batches  coming  in  from  Ireland,  just  as  we 
were,  on  deportation  orders. 

Q.     They  were  under  indictment? 

A.  No,  they  were  all  deported.  There  was  just  a  deportation 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  were  they  signed  by? 

A.  Mine  was  signed  by  Ian  MacPherson.  Others  were  signed  by 
\  iscount  French,  the  Lord  Lieutenant  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Were  they  all  on  hunger  strike? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  any  of  them  die? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  on  hunger  strike? 

A.     Some  of  them  were  on  hunger  strike  for  twenty-four  days. 

Q.     Were  they  all  released  as  you  were? 

A.     Yes. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  should  like  to  ask  about  the  killing  of 
the  policeman  in  Thurles.    That  happened  the  night  of  your  arrest? 

A.     It  was  a  few  days  before  that. 

Q.  What  reason  had  they  to  connect  that  with  the  leading  Re- 
publicans of  the  town? 

A.  You  mean  why  we  were  shot  up  on  account  of  the  shooting 
of  the  constable? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.  I  could  not  say.  This  is  only  a  theory  of  mine:  they  thought 
they  would  make  prominent  members  of  the  town  suffer  for  it. 

Q.     Did  they  make  any  inquiries  into  the  cause  of  his  death? 

A.     Oh,  there  was  an  inquest.     But  he  did  not  die  on  that  night 


of  the  shooting-up.  He  died  two  days  after.  There  was  a  coroner's 
inquest — a  coroner  and  a  jury  of  twelve  men.  They  found  he  was 
shot  by  some  persons  unknown. 

Q.     This  took  place  in  the  town  itself? 

A.     In  the  town  itself. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason,  any  enmity  or  animosity,  that 
would  lead  to  his  being  murdered? 

A.    No. 

Q.  Was  he  conspicuous  in  any  work  there  among  the  British 
officers  that  might  make  his  particular  actions  offensive  to  the  people 
of  the  village? 

A.  Well,  you  see,  I  could  not  really  tell  you  what  his  duties 
were.  In  these  cases  we  have  no  control  whatever  over  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary.  We  have  no  control,  we  know  nothing  about 
the  duties  they  were  performing. 

Q.     Did  you  personally  know  this  particular  officer? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     Constable  Finnegan. 

Q.  Had  he  been  obnoxious  in  any  way?  Had  he  been  over- 
zealous  in  his  duties? 

A.     I  really  could  not  say. 

Q.     At  that  time  had  they  abandoned  the  coroner's  inquest? 

A.     No,  not  at  that  time. 

Q.  The  finding  was  merely  that  he  was  shot  down  by  persons 
unknown.    No  other  finding? 

A.     No  other  finding. 

Q.     It  v 

A.    No. 

Q.  What  were  the  circumstances  of  his  shooting?  Was  he  on 
his  beat? 

A.     I  think  so.     I  think  he  was  going  home. 

Q.     Was  he  a  citizen  of  that  town? 

A.  No,  he  could  not  be.  No  constable  is  ever  sent  to  his  home 

Q.     Did  he  have  any  quarrel  with  the  neighbors? 

A.     I  do  not  know.     It  could  happen,  but  I  do  not  know  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  best  information  you  obtained  as  to  the  time 
when  the  officer  was  shot? 

A.     The  time  that  he  was  shot  was  about  half  aften  ten. 

Q.     Where  was  he  when  he  was  shot? 

A.     He  was  going  toward  his  own  home, 

Q.     That  was  about  half  past  ten? 


A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  How  long  after  this,  policeman  was  shot  did  the  shooting  up 
of  the  town  take  place? 

A.     About  an  hour. 

Q.  And  everybody  in  town  was  practically  in  bed  or  in  his  home 
at  that  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  that  there  were  two  hundred  men  in  that  particular 
jail  under  arrest  with  you.     Were  there  men  in  other  jails? 

A.  Oh,  there  were.  In  Brixton  prison,  the  scene  of  the  late 
tragedy,  there  were  five  more. 

Q.     How:  many  all  told? 

A.  About  three  hundred  all   told. 

Q.     From  different  parts  of  Ireland? 

A.     \es.  different  parts  of  Ireland. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  elections  to  which  you  referred  under 
the  Local  Government  Act  which  resulted  in  the  return  of  Labor 
men  and  Republican  men:  do  you  know  what  the  results  generally 
were  of  the  elections  throughout  Ireland  at  that  time? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  There  had  been  a  great  sweeping  at  the  polls  in 
favor  of  the  Republic. 

Q.      About  what  per  cent,  of  the  urban  councils  went  Republican? 

A.     I  would  say  about  ninety  per  cent. 

Q.     All  over  Ireland? 

A.     All   over  Ireland. 

Q.     North  as  well   as  south? 

A.  Not  so  much  in  the  north;  but  if  you  take  the  whole  of 
Ireland — 

Q.     Ninety  per  cent? 

A.     Ninety  per  cent. 

Q.  What  per  cent  of  the  councilmen  were  Labor  men  and  what 
per  cent.  Republicans  and  what  per  cent.  Unionists? 

A.  Our  own  council  is  a  good  case:  about  five  Republicans  to 
four  Labor  men,  and  three  who  are  for  union. 

Q.  On  the  whole,  do  the  men  who  run  as  Labor  candidates 
adhere  to  the  principle  of  Republican  organization  for  Ireland? 

A.     All   of  them. 

Q.     But  they  maintain  their  own  party  organization? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  It  is  a  political  party,  just  like  the  Labor  Party  or  the 
Liberal  Party  in  England? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  do  the  individual  members  all  adhere  to  the  principle 
of  a  Republican  government  in  Ireland? 

A.     All  of  them. 

Q.  When  you  say  that  ninety  per  cent,  are  Republicans,  you 
mean  that  ninety  per  cent,  of  those  voting  indicated  their  preference 
for  those  candidates?  But  in  every  council  there  must  be  a  minority 
of  non-Republicans  because  of  the  proportional  representation 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Under  the  old  system  there  would  have  been  no 
minority  representation  at  all. 

Q.  Did  other  arbitration  councils  organize  as  yours  and  proceed 
as  you  did? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  In  the  larger  cities  they  have  a  different  method. 
But  in  the  towns  and  smaller  cities  they  are  organized  along  these 

Q.     About  ninety  per  cent,  of  the  local  agencies  are  Republican? 

A.     Yes,  today. 

Q.     On  the  night  that  they  shot  up  the  town,  was  anyone  killed? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Anyone  wounded? 

A.     There  were  some  very  remarkable  escapes,  though. 

Q.     Just  property  destroyed? 

A.  Property  destroyed.  For  instance,  the  bed  in  which  I  was 
sleeping  was  struck.  Had  I  not  the  good  sense  to  get  out  of  the 
bed,  I  would  have  been  struck. 

Q.  Had  you  any  personal  knowledge  of  the  facts  surrounding 
the  killing  of  this  constable,  or  do  you  know  of  any  resident  of 
Thurles  that  had  such  knowledge? 

A.     No. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  a  private  feud,  or  whether 
he  was  executed? 

A.     No,  I  do  not  know. 

Q.     Direct  or  indirect,  by  hearsay  or  personal  knowledge? 

A.     No,  I  could  not  give  you  any  idea. 

Q.  What  was  the  popular  sentiment  in  that  town?  How  did 
the  people  feel  about  it? 

A.  The  people  were  so  terror-stricken  and  absorbed  in  their 
own  safety  that  they  did  not  have  time  to  think  about  anything  else. 

Q.     Since  then  it  must  have  been  discussed  among  the  neighbors. 

A.     Yes,  but  the  people  do  not  know  who  committed  it. 


Q.  I  do  not  mean  who  committed  it,  but  the  fact  that  it  occurred. 
How  did  they  feel  about  such  an  occurrence  in  your  town? 

A.     I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you,  Mr.  Walsh,  wish  to  continue? 
Is  there  anything  more? 

A.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  If  you  please,  yes. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Has  there  been  any  further  shooting  up  of 
the  town  since  you  came  back? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  While  I  was  in  prison  it  was  shot  up  twice,  similar 
to  the  first  time. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  detail  anything  you  had  knowledge  of  in 
the  immediate  vicinity — for  instance,  in  Templemore,  the  killing 
of  the  men.     Would  you  detail? 

A.  First  of  all,  while  I  was  in  jail  in  March,  there  was  another 
member  of  the  Urban  Council  named  McCarthy  who  was  very 
prominent  in  demanding  an  inquiry  into  the  shooting  up  of  the 
town.  At  the  Urban  Council  he  put  forward  a  resolution  that  some 
inquiry  be  held  as  to  the  importance  of  the  damage  done  and 
everything  else  in  the  shooting  up  of  the  town.  This  chap  got  a 
letter  informing  him  that  if  he  came  up  Pryor  Street  in  the  direc- 
tion of  the  barracks  they  would  give  him  all  the  information  he 
wanted.  Naturally  he  did  not  move.  But  there  was  a  sad  sequel  to 
it.  A  few  nights  afterward,  after  the  family  was  in  bed — they  live 
off  the  Liberty  Square — the  family  was  in  bed  about  two  o'clock  in 
the  morning.  A  knocking  came  at  the  door,  and  they  asked  who 
was  there,  and  they  said  they  were  looking  for  one  McCarthy.  The 
member  of  the  Urban  Council  is  Michael  McCarthy.  The  brother, 
a  lad  named  James,  who  never  takes  part  in  public  life  in  any  way, 
simply  a  chap  who  is  fond  of  going  around  with  dogs  and  sporting, 
he  said  he  would  go  down  and  answer  the  door.  As  he  answered 
the  door  the  men  asked  him  what  his  name  was.  Immediately  two 
shots  were  fired,  and  he  fell  back  dead  in  the  hall.  His  sister  and 
brother  came  down.  The  sister  said  she  would  go  to  the  priest's, 
and  she  ran  down  the  street  in  her  bare  feet.  As  she  proceeded, 
two  shots  were  fired  after  her. 

Q.     Did  they  hit  her? 

A.  No,  she  luckily  escaped.  There  was  a  coroner's  inquest  held 
over  him.  The  verdict  of  the  jury  was  that  he  was  murdered  by 
men  dressed  in  the  uniform  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

The  next  night,  at  a  place  named  Ragg,  three  miles  from  Thurles, 


there  was  a  chap  there  named  Dwyer.  A  knock  came  at  the  door, 
and  his  sister,  a  married  lady,  opened  the  door,  and  they  demanded 
her  brother. 

Q.     What  was  his  position? 

A.  He  was  a  licensed  trader.  She  said  he  was  upstairs.  He 
came  down  with  a  candle  in  his  hand.  Two  shots  were  fired  and  he 
fell.  A  man  at  the  door  said,  "I  think  I  will  finish  him."  And  he 
fired  another  shot  into  him.  The  verdict  in  that  case  was,  "Wilful 
murder  against  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary." 

Q.     Wilful  murder  against  or  by? 

A.     Against  them.     The  verdict  was  against  them. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  verdict  was  that  this  young  man's  death 
was  caused  by  wilful  murder  by  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish 

A.  Yes.  In  the  case  of  this  chap  Dwyer,  the  members  of  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  came  through  in  motor  lorries  about  three 
days  afterward  shouting:  "Dwyer  is  dead  and  a  very  good  job." 
They  came  back  to  the  house  where  this  sister,  this  married  girl 
lived,  and  smashed  all  the  bottles  in  the  house  and  fired  shots 
through  the  ceiling.  The  result  was  that  she  had  to  leave  the  shop 
altogether.  The  shop  was  shut  up  for  several  weeks.  She  came 
back  after  a  time  and  a  similar  occurrence  happened.  The  shop 
was  shot  up  again. 

There  was  a  case  at  Holy  Cross,  about  three  miles  from  the  old 
abbey  of  Holy  Cross,  where  a  wake  was  being  held.  A  girl  had 
died,  and  a  wake  was  being  held  at  the  house.  At  a  wake  in  Ireland 
the  neighbors  assemble  and  they  say  the  mass  for  the  dead  and  sit 
up  all  night  with  the  corpse.  At  the  wake  there  was  a  poor  old 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.  Mr.  Rooney.  He  happened  to  go  out  of  the  corpse  house 
about  three  o'clock  in  the  morning.  He  was  riddled  with  bullets. 
Shots  were  also  fired  through  the  doors  and  windows  of  the  corpse 
house.  There  was  another  man,  the  village  postman,  who  was 
brought  out  and  told  to  look  at  the  body  of  the  dead  comrade.  He 
expected  to  be  shot  too,  and  he  said,  "But  you  know  me;  you  know 
who  I  am.  I  am  the  village  postman."  They  said,  "No,  we  don't 
know  who  you  are." 

Q.     Who  were  "they"? 

A.  They  were  the  men  who  came  in  lorries.  They  were  not  from 
Holy  Cross.  Finally  one  of  the  men  spoke  up  from  the  lorry  and 
said,  "Yes,  I  know  him.  He's  the  postman."  The  verdict  again 
was  wilful  murder. 


Q.     Who  returned  that  verdict? 

A.     The  coroner's  jury  of  twelve  men. 

Q.     Who  selects  those  twelve  men? 

A.     The  police;  that  is,  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Q.  Was  that  verdict  rendered  by  a  jury  established  by  the  Re- 
publican government  of  Ireland,  or  by  the  Roval  Irish  Constabu- 

A.     By   the   Royal   Irish   Constabulary. 

Q.  So  that  the  verdict  of  a  jury  called  and  convened  by  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  pronounced  that  crime  as  wilful  murder? 

A.  Yes.  wilful  murder  committed  by  the  armed  forces  of  the 

Q.  What  could  be  the  motive  and  reason  for  shooting  up  a  house 
where  there  was  a  dead  body? 

A.  I  was  just  coming  to  that.  The  next  morning  there  was  an 
official  notice  appearing  in  the  papers  coming  from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  Dublin  Castle  is  the  representative  of  the  British  Government 
in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes.  This  report  stated  that  there  had  been  an  attack  on  the 
police  barracks  in  Holy  Cross  and  one  of  the  members  had  been 
shot  dead. 

Q.      Had  there  been  an  attack  on  the  barracks? 

A.     No.     None  at  all. 

Q.     And  this  chap  was  a  poor  simpleton? 

A.     Yes,  just  a  poor  simpleton. 

Q.     How  old  was  he? 

A.     About  sixty  years  of  age. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  shots  fired  or  persons  killed? 

A.  No  other  persons  were  killed,  but  other  shots  were  fired,  lots 
of  them,  through  the  house. 

Q.  What  was  it  that  prevented  them  from  killing  others  in  the 
house?     Was  there  any  person  who  intervened? 

A.  There  was  a  man  who  was  a  cousin  of  the  person  who  was 
dead.  He  was  an  ex-army  officer.  He  came  out,  and  they  asked  him 
what  business  he  had  there.  He  said  he  was  an  ex-army  officer — 
he  explained  who  he  was.  I  think  his  presence  saved  the  other 
men  from  being  shot  also. 

Q.  Was  there  other  shooting  at  Holy  Cross  besides  at  the  place 
where  the  dead  body  lay? 

A.  No,  but  at  a  place  about  seven  miles  away  there  was  an  attack 
on  a  police  barracks,  but  not  there. 



Q.  If  it  will  not  interrupt  your  narrative,  when  was  the  Lord 
Mayor  of  Cork  killed,  Mr.  MacCurtain,  with  reference  to  your  con- 
finement in  jail? 

A.     He  was  killed  in  March. 

Q.     And  you  were  then  in  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison? 

A.     I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  advices  prior  to  the  death  of  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain  that  he  was  to  be  killed?     Please  tell  that  incident. 

A.  On  the  sixteenth  of  March  there  was  a  prisoner  from  Ireland 
arrived  in  Wormwood  Scrubbs.  I  happened  to  know  this  man. 
He  was  Mr.  Dwyer,  a  member  of  the  arbitration  court.  When  he 
came  in,  I  shook  hands  with  him.  He  was  telling  me  about  home 
affairs.  He  said,  "By  the  way,  I  heard  something  coming  over  on 
the  boat,  that  yourself  and  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were  sentenced 
to  be  shot  by  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary." 

Q.  He  said  that  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  to  be  shot  to  death  by 
the -Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  by  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Q.     When  was  that  date? 

A.     The  sixteenth  of  March. 

Q.     When  was  his  life  taken? 

A.     He  was  shot  on  the  twentieth. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  information  from  any  member  of  the 
English  Labor  Commission  who  was  present  in  Thurles  the  day 
following  the  first  shooting  as  to  what  information  he  had  from  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  as  to  their  future  movements  in  your 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  I  had  an  interview  with  the  members  of  that 
Commission,  and  was  talking  with  Mr.  Arthur  Henderson.  Just  as 
he  was  leaving  the  town  he  called  me  aside  and  said  to  me:  "Mr. 
Morgan,  I  want  to  speak  to  you  a  minute.  When  I  arrived  at  the 
station  this  morning  I  was  speaking  to  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary.  I  said  the  shooting  up  of  the  town  was  terrible.  He 
said,  'Well,  they  deserved  it  for  shooting  one  of  our  men,  and  it  is 
nothing  to  what  we  will  give  them  tonight  if  he  dies.'  "  That  was 
Mr.  Arthur  Henderson  of  the  British  Labor  Party. 


Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  further  disturbances  in  this  locality? 

A.     Of  what  nature? 

Q.     Violence,  disturbances,  and  shootings. 


A.  Oh,  yes.  Templemore,  seven  miles  from  us,  was  shot  up  and 
the  town  hall  completely  gutted. 

Q.     By  fire? 

A.     By  fire,  incendiary  bombs. 

Q.     Did  you  examine  the  premises? 

A.     I  did.     Only  the  four  walls  remained. 

Q.  What  was  the  occasion  for  attacking  that  building?  Was  it 
an  attack? 

A.  The  same  day  there  had  been  a  district  inspector  shot  in  the 
town  of  Templemore. 

Q.  So  that  as  soon  as  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
is  shot  they  proceed  to  fire  up  the  town? 

A.     Yes.     That  night  they  shot  up  the  town. 

Q.     Are  there  other  instances  of  that  sort? 

A.     \es,  they  are  quite  common. 

Q.     Is  that  what  is  meant  by  reprisals? 

A.  Yes.  These  are  what  are  meant  by  reprisals.  Something 
happens.  Any  town  in  that  vicinity  will  be  attacked  in  a  similar 
manner:  shooting  and  everything  of  that  kind;  big  motor  lorries  of 
troops  arrive. 


Q.     Does  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  do  this,  or  the  military? 

A.  They  are  so  mixed  now  it  is  difficult  to  tell.  The  original 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  forces  are  now  supplemented  by  what  are 
known  as  the  Black-and-Tans.  They  are  police  who  have  been 
recruited  in  England  in  large  quantities  and  sent  across  to  fill  up 
the  forces  in  Ireland.  They  did  not  have  uniforms  enough  of  the 
original  kind  to  give  them,  so  they  dressed  them  in  khaki  and  put 
R.  I.  C.  caps  on  them,  which  are  black,  and  a  black  belt;  so  the 
black  and  khaki  together  made  what  is  called  Black-and-Tan. 

Q.  Have  they  had  difficulty  in  recruiting  members  for  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  Yes.  They  could  not  get  them  to  enlist  in  Ireland.  As  a 
result  this  Black-and-Tan  has  been  introduced. 


Q.  Has  any  person  in  your  vicinity  been  arrested  or  tried  or  even 
accused  by  the  public  authorities  for  the  commission  of  any  of  these 
murders  or  assaults  upon  officers? 

A.     No. 

Q.     So  that  the  method  which  has  been  invoked  to  attempt  to 


stop  or  to  bring  to  justice  the  perpetrators  of  these  murders  has  been 
to  fire  upon  the  town? 

A.  Exactly.  There  has  been  no  trial  in  our  vicinity  of  anybody 
on  any  of  these  charges. 

Q.  Discussing  the  wake  where  the  simpleton  was  shot,  you  said 
that  that  same  night,  about  seven  miles  distant  from  the  wake,  the 
barracks  of  the  police  had  been  attacked? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that?  Was  anyone  shot  or  any 
damage  done? 

A.     No  one  was  killed.     The  barracks  were  just  shot  up. 

Q.  You  described  the  report  made  by  Dublin  Castle  on  the  kill- 
ing of  this  simpleton.  Was  it  at  Templemore  where  some  buildings 
were  set  fire  to  and  people  burned  to  death? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Just  describe  that. 

A.  About  two  days  after  Templemore  had  been  shot  up,  an 
officer  who  had  taken  part  in  it,  named  Captain  Beattie,  died.  A 
report  appeared  in  the  papers  that  Captain  Beattie  had  lost  his  life 
in  a  gallant  attempt  to  save  an  inmate's  life  in  a  burning  building 
in  Templemore. 

Q.     Is  that  all?     Did  they  say  what  burning  building? 

A.     Oh,  no;  they  did  not  say  what  building. 

Q.     What  was  the  result? 

A.  The  urban  council  of  Templemore  met  and  issued  a  repudia- 
tion of  that  statement.  They  said  that  Captain  Beattie  did  not  lose 
his  life  in  rescuing  an  inmate  of  a  burning  building,  but  had  lost 
his  life  in  attempting  to  burn  the  town  hall. 

Q.     What  were  the  facts? 

A.  The  best  of  my  information  is  that  Captain  Beattie  and  a 
private  soldier  entered  the  building  to  burn  it,  and  before  they  could 
get  out,  it  was  set  afire  from  the  outside.  There  was  just  a  window 
from  which  they  could  escape.  The  window  was  a  good  height. 
A  person  could  jump  out  from  it  into  the  street.  What  I  imagine 
happened  is  that  the  soldier  lifted  the  officer  up  to  the  window  to 
jump  out,  and  then  he  could  not  get  out  himself  because  he  had 
no  one  to  help  him,  and  his  body  was  found  inside. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  the  soldiers  got  the  petrol  to  burn  this 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  soldiers  went  to  a  petrol  shop  in  Templemore 
and  demanded  petrol.  The  owner  said  he  would  not  give  it  to  them, 
and  they  took  it  anyway  from  him  and  threw  some  of  it  back  lighted 
and  burned  the  shop  down. 


Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  Demanded  what'.-' 
A.     Petrol,  petrol. 
Chairman  Howe:  Gasoline. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Who  was  the  owner  of  the  shop? 
A.     He  was  a  Protestant  gentleman. 

Q.  Were  there  any  inmates  of  the  town  hall  at  the  time  the 
attack  was  made  upon  it? 

A.     No;  fortunately  it  was  night  time  and  no  one  there. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  go  back  for  a  moment  to 
the  constitution  of  this  arbitration  court.  After  this  court  was 
formed,  did  the  people  of  Thurles  submit  their  cases  to  the  arbi- 
tration court? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  hundreds  of  cases  were  tried. 

Q.  Hundreds  of  cases.  Do  the  lawyers  of  Thurles  practice  in 
the  arbitration  courts? 

A.     They  do. 

Q.  Are  they  allowed  to  carry  on  their  business  without  restraint 
on  the  part  of  the  military?  Do  they  do  it  in  public  or  do  they 
have  to  do  it  in  private? 

A.     Oh,  they  have  to  do  it  in  private. 

Q.  Are  the  decrees  of  this  court  respected  by  the  people  of 

A.  Absolutely.  I  may  say  that  at  first  the  court  did  sit  openly, 
and  then  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  came  along  and 
closed  the  court,  and  since  then  they  meet  surreptitiously. 

Q.  Do  the  people  submit  their  controversies  to  them  and  respect 
their  decisions  and  abide  by  them? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  absolutely. 

Q.     There  are  now  no  other  courts  in  Thurles? 

A.     No,  nor  have  there  been  for  several  months. 

Q.     They  are  abandoned? 

A.  Yes.  The  petty  court  has  quit  sitting  and  the  court  house  is 
falling  into  dilapidation. 


Q.     Are  there  any  creameries  in  your  neighborhood? 
A.     Oh,  yes. 


Q.     You  might  sketch  how  they  are  gotten  up. 

A.  Yes,  these  creameries  are  started  by  the  farmers'  cooperative 
societies.  They  take  all  their  milk  there.  These  have  been  very 
successful  for  the  last  several  years  in  Ireland. 

Q.     About  how  long? 

A.  Thirty  years,  I  suppose.  I  am  not  quite  sure  on  that  point, 
but  I  think  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     The  farmers  started  them  themselves? 

A.  Yes.  These  creameries:  the  petrol  that  was  taken  from  this 
shop  this  night  at  Templemore,  the  motor  lorries  took  this  petrol 
the  same  night  and  went  around  the  country  burning  the  five 
creameries  systematically. 

Q.     Were  these  large  creameries? 

A.     Yes,  very  large. 

Q.     Was  butter  stored  in  these  creameries? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  What  has  been  the  effect  of  this  terrorism  upon  the  life  of  the 
people  in  the  market  towns?  What  effect  has  it  had  upon  the  price 
of  necessities? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  many  people  are  afraid  of  their  lives  and 
are  leaving  business  and  giving  up  their  places  for  sale.  The  roads 
of  the  district  are  patrolled.  Armed  motor  lorries  are  rushing 
along  day  and  night.  The  people  are  afraid  to  go  on  the  roads  at 
all.  Only  in  case  of  necessity  are  people  using  the  roads  at  all. 
People  do  not  go  on  the  roads  except  in  day  time  when  they  have  to, 
and  they  go  straight  home. 

Q.     What  effect  has  this  had  upon  the  price  of  products? 

A.  It  has  sent  up  the  price.  Often  necessary  food  cannot  be 
brought  in  from  the  country  because  the  people  will  not  venture  on 
the  roads. 

Q.     What  effect  upon  the  people? 

A.  The  people,  naturally,  are  living  in  a  state  of  terror.  Take 
the  case  of  my  wife.  She  finds  it  very  hard  to  sleep  at  night.  At 
the  least  noise  she  is  startled  and  rushes  out  of  the  house  thinking  an 
attack  is  to  be  made. 

Q.  At  the  time  of  the  shooting  up  of  Thurles  your  little  boy  was 
in  good  health? 

A.     He  was  a  very  strong  boy. 

Q.     Did  this  seem  to  have  a  profound  effect  upon  his  nerves? 

A.     Yes,  it  shocked  him  profoundly. 


Q.     How  about  the  people  of  the  town,  the  rest  of  them? 

A.  I  have  not  been  able  to  stop  at  my  own  home  since  January 

Q.     Where  do  you  stop? 

A.     I  stop  at  friends'  houses. 

Q.     And  your  wife? 

A.  She  usually  sleeps  in  the  house,  but  any  noise  sends  her 
flying  from  the  premises. 

Q.  Is  that  common  in  Thurles?  How  about  the  prominent 

A.  Yes,  no  man  who  is  prominent  will  stop  in  his  own  home 
over  night. 

Q.     For  fear  of  attacks? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  I  was  asking  about  the  little  boy.  Subsequent  to  this,  when 
was  the  first  notice  you  had  of  any  condition  of  the  boy's  heart? 

A.  We  never  had  any  trouble  with  him.  We  never  had  a  doctor 
for  him. 

Q.     After  this  shooting,  what  was  the  course  of  his  life? 

A.  He  was  a  great  favorite  of  my  own.  He  was  a  little  chap 
whom  I  was  bringing  up  in  his  own  language. 

Q.     Irish? 

A.  Yes,  Irish.  I  kept  him  with  me  so  that  I  could  talk  to  him 
in  his  own  language.  When  I  was  taken  away  the  poor  little  fellow 
was  constantly  calling  for  me.  The  week  that  he  was  dying,  he 
used  to  look  at  the  mother  and  say,  "When  is  Daddy  coming  home?" 
and  "Daddy,  oh  Daddy!" 

Q.     What  is  he  said  to  have  died  of? 

A.     Heart  trouble. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:     I  think  that  is  all. 

The  Witness:  As  regards  the  town  hall.  We  have  a  very  fine  town 
hall  in  Thurles  that  is  used  as  a  place  of  recreation  for  the  young 
men  of  the  town.  That  hall  a  year  ago  was  commandeered  by  the 

Q.  Is  there  any  social  life  left  in  Thurles  at  all,  any  intercourse 
between  the  inhabitants,  educational   meetings? 

A.  Oh,  no.  We  used  to  hold  classes  in  Irish,  and  they  have  all 
had  to  be  discontinued. 

Q.     Prior  to  that  time  was  there  social  intercourse? 

A.     Yes.    We  used  to  have  classes,  Irish  and  other  classes. 

Q.     And  that  has  all  been  wiped  out? 

A.  Yes,  tha^  has  all  been  wiped  out.  It  is  scarcely  safe  for 
traders  to  keep  open.     I  have  seen  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown 


come  along  and  enter  a  meat  shop  and  take  down  all  the  quarters 
of  meat,  put  them  down  on  the  block,  cut  them  up,  and  take  them 

Q.     Did  they  give  any  payment  for  it? 

A.  They  offered  payment,  which  was  not  accepted.  In  the  case 
I  spoke  of  it  was  not  accepted. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  some  questions 
about  the  government  of  Ireland  and  the  changes  which  have  taken 
place  there.  I  understand  that  some  years  back  the  government  of 
your  town  consisted  of  a  town  council  elected  by  the  people,  and  an 
Irish  Constabulary  appointed  by  the  British  authorities,  and 
magistrates  and  justices  of  the  peace  appointed  by  police  authorities; 
that  there  came  a  time  when  there  was  brought  to  Ireland  a  British 
army,  and  this  hospital  you  spoke  of  was  taken  over  for  barracks, 
and  the  town  hall  also.  When  was  the  date  of  the  coming  into 
Ireland  of  the  British  army? 

A.     The  British  army? 

Q.     Yes,  the  British  army. 

A.     You  know  we  have  always  had  British  garrisons  in  Ireland. 

Q.     When  did  they  take  over  the  hospital? 

A.     The  hospital  was  taken  over  two  years  ago. 

Q.     The  town  hall? 

A.  A  year  ago.  They  do  not  have  it  now,  but  they  had  it  that 

Q.  In  speaking  of  garrisoned  towns,  you  mean  recruiting  stations 
where  officers  and  soldiers  are  drilled  and  trained  for  the  British 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  But  there  was  no  actual  operating  on  the  part  of  the  British 
army  until  the  past  two  years? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     They  did  not  assume  any  authority  or  police  the  streets? 

A.     Oh,  no.     There  would  be  none  of  the  armed  lorries  going  by. 

Q.     When  did  the  Black-and-Tans  appear  in  Ireland? 

A.  The  Black-and-Tans  appeared  in  Ireland  some  six  months 

Q.  How  far  had  the  people  of  Ireland  proceeded  in  their 
attempts  to  establish  an  Irish  Republic  when  the  British  army  began 
to  take  an  active  part  in  attempting  to  preserve  law  and  order? 


A.  The  establishment  of  the  Irish  Republic  would  dale  back  to 
the  time  of  the  election   in   December,   1918. 

Q.  Two  years  ago  this  next  month? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  About  that  time  the  British  army  became  active  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  been  active  ever  since? 

A.  Ever  since. 


Q.  So  it  was  the  advent  of  the  Republican  form  of  government 
that  brought  the  British  army  to  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  They  have  established  barracks  in  every  large  town  and  city 
all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  So  that  they  had  in  your  town  this  large1  building  you 
speak  of? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  was  that  building  used  for  before  they  took  it? 

A.     A  fever  hospital. 

Q.  And  you  say  they  took  over  by  summary  process  the  whole 
building  and  turned  out  the  inmates? 

A.     Yes,  and  turned  out  the  inmates. 

Q.     And  also  the  town  hall? 

A.     Yes,  the  town  hall. 

Q.  What  appear  to  be  the  duties  of  these  British  soldiers? 
What  are  they  doing  by  clay  and  night? 

A.     It  seems  to  me  that  they  are  a  garrison. 

Q.     Are  they  acting  in  the  capacity  of  police  officers? 

A.     They  are  going  around  on  all  these  raids. 

Q.     Mr.'F.  P.  Walsh:     Eight  of  them  go  together? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  say  soldiers.     It  is  no  longer  the  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     It  is  all  soldiers  now. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     What  do  the  Black-and-Tans  do? 

A.     I  really  could  not  tell  you.     They  do  not  do  anything. 

Q.     Where  are  they  lodged? 

A.  In  the  police  barracks.  You  must  discriminate  between  the 
police  barracks  and  the  military  barracks. 

Q.  The  Black-and-Tans  are  taking  the  place  of  the  Royal  Irish 


A.  Yes.  Irishmen  refused  to  join  them.  Resignations  have 
been  taking  place  constantly  and  continuously. 

Q.     How  are  they  dressed? 

A.  They  are  dressed  in  khaki  the  same  as  soldiers,  with  a  black 
cap  and  black  police  belt. 

Q.     Do  they  carry  any  weapons? 

A.     Rifles  in  their  hands. 

Q.     How  many  Black-and-Tans  are  there  is  your  town? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you.  It  would  be  -dangerous  for  anybody  to 
ask.  You  might  be  sent  to  two  years  in  prison  for  asking  such  a 

Q.  Has  not  the  Town  Council  any  authority  to  ask  about  how 
many  British  soldiers  there  are  in  the  town? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  What  is  your  best  judgment  as  to  the  number  of  Black-and- 
Tan  officers  in  the  town? 

A.     I  suppose  there  would  be  forty  there. 

Q.     And  how  many  British  soldiers? 

A.  I  really  could  not  tell  you.  It  is  constantly  changing.  The 
units  are  changed.     I  really  could  not  say  what  number. 

Q.     Are  these  officials  practically  all  British  or  Englishmen  now? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  All  Black-and-Tans.  Of  course  there  is  a  corps 
now  known  as  the  Auxiliary  Corps. 

Q.     What  is  that? 

A.  This  is  a  corps  that  has  been  recruited  from  what  has  been 
described  in  the  House  of  Commons  as  ex-army  officers  in  England. 
I  think  they  are  principally  for  raiding  purposes.  They  dress  in 
civilian  clothes  and  in  soldiers'  clothes.  They  dress  in  every  way. 
You  can  never  tell  them.  They  go  around  in  motor  lorries  every 
day  raiding  houses  and  raiding  streets  and  holding  them  up. 


Q.  Back  of  all  this  disorder  and  the  conditions  you  have  de- 
scribed is  an  attempt  of  the  British  authorities  to  wipe  out  and 
stamp  out  and  eliminate  from  Ireland  the  efforts  of  the  Irish  people 
to  organize  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  as  soon  as  the  people  of  Ireland  would  give  up  any 
effort  to  establish  a  republic  and  agree  to  accept  British  authority 
all  this  would  end? 

A.     That  is  apparently  the  case. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  These  local  bodies  to  which  you  were 
elected  a  member,  are  they  not  British  statutory  bodies?  Were 
they  not  elected  in  accordance  with  an  Act  of  Parliament? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.     And  the  people  were  authorized  to  use  them? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Thev  were  legalized  political  agencies  that  had  been  used  by 
the  people  for  a  long  time? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  And  when  they  used  them  to  elect  Republican  members,  this 
attack  intervened? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  understand  you  to  say,  Mr.  Morgan,  that  you  had  not 
slept  in  your  own  home  since  this  happened? 

A.  I  have  not  slept  in  my  own  home  since  January  twentieth,  the 
night  of  the  shooting. 

Q.  How  many  people  in  Thurles  do  that — of  how  many  is  it 

A.  I  know  of  my  own  personal  knowledge  that  it  is  true  of  over 
a  dozen,  I  am  sure. 

Q.     Do  you  show  yourself  on  the  streets  of  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  in  the  day  time,  but  not  after  dark. 

Q.     You  have  been  back  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  do  not  sleep  at  night  where  you  may  be  found? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     All  these  massacres  take  place  at  night? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  always  at  night.  The  day  I  was  coming  away  I  was 
in  Dublin,  before  I  came  here.  The  night  before  I  came  the  whole 
block  where  I  was  staying  was  hemmed  in  by  Black-and-Tans.  I 
was  afraid  I  would  be  detained,  and  so  I  left  early  in  the  morning. 
I  came  down  in  a  taxi  cab  to  see  my  sister.  The  motor  car  was 
held  up  by  two  armed  soldiers  by  the  road  and  I  was  ordered  out  by 
the  side  of  the  road  to  be  searched.  The  officer  came  along  and 
looked  me  over  and  said,  "I  guess  we  will  have  to  go  back."  And 
so  I  made  the  boat  just  in  time. 

Q.     You  had  a  passport? 

A.     Yes,  I  had  a  passport. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  come  here  in  response  to  the 
invitation  of  this  Commission? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  Has  the  Republican  organization  in  any  way  of  your  knowl- 
edge aided  or  abetted  or  encouraged  the  commission  of  murders 
of  officers? 

A.     Never. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  action  taken,  secretly  or  in  any  way,  to 
wreak  vengeance  upon  English  soldiers  who  are  implicated  in  re- 

A.    No. 

Q.  As  conditions  are  such  as  you  have  described,  it  is  but  natural 
that  there  have  been  excitable  Irish  citizens  who  engage  in  assaults. 

A.  But  they  control  themselves.  In  the  town  of  Littletown  there 
was  a  police  barracks.  About  three  weeks  ago  that  barracks  was 
attacked  on  Sunday  afternoon  and  taken  without  a  shot  being  fired. 
The  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  men  who  were  there, 
were  taken  out  and  never  molested,  and  told  to  wait  for  a  time  until 
the  men  took  away  the  stuff  in  the  barracks,  and  they  were  never 
injured.  That  was  a  case  where  they  captured  the  whole  barracks 
and  had  all  the  men  in  their  hands,  and  none  of  them  were  ever 

Q.  Has  the  movement  in  Ireland  for  an  Irish  Republic  been 
based  upon  orders  that  murders  or  the  loss  of  life  shall  never  be 
tolerated  or  committed?  That  is,  has  the  campaign  of  the  Irish 
Republican  authorities  been  one  of  passive  resistance? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  The  organization  is  there  for  the  establish- 
ment on  a  permanent  basis  of  the  Irish  Republic  if  possible. 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  they  proceeded  to  organize  by  passive 
resistance?     What  is  their  plan? 

A.  They  set  up  their  own  executive  bodies.  The  arbitration 
court  is  an  instance  of  it.  In  our  council,  for  instance,  we  have 
repudiated  the  authority  of  England  to  hold  any  dictatorial  power 
over  us  or  forbid  us  to  do  this  or  to  do  that.  We  have  our  own 
government  now,  established  with  what  is  known  as  all  the  public 
representatives  of  the  people  assembled.  We  have  a  regular 
executive  organized. 

Q.  In  a  word,  your  organization  has  appealed  to  the  people  of 
Ireland  to  make  known  through  their  votes  their  wishes  to  abandon 
any  association  with  the  British  Government  and  to  establish  a 
government  of  their  own? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  were  elected  to  form  a  town  council  to  notify  the 


British  authorities  that  you  would  not  recognize  the  British  Govern- 
ment but  would  establish  an  Irish  Government? 

A.     Exactly.     We  repudiated  any  connection  with  Britain. 


Q.  To  what  extent  have  you  gone  in  warning  and  preventing 
your  supporters  and  aids  from  doing  violent  acts,  and  what  steps 
have  you  taken  to  prevent  lawlessness  in  Ireland? 

A.  We  have  established  in  Ireland  our  own  police,  who  have 
been  very  effective  in  bringing  to  account  those  who  have  been 
guilty  of  burglary  and  assaults  and  larceny  and  everything  of  that 
sort.  They  have  captured  the  criminals  in  several  cases  of  hold-ups 
of  banks  in  Ireland.  The  streets  of  Dublin  at  night  time  are 
policed  by  our  men. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  authority  appointed  and  named  and  elected 
by  the  people  of  your  town  and  the  towns  of  the  vicinity,  other  than 
what  has  been  elected  by  the  people  with  a  desire  to  have  a  republic 
in  Ireland? 

A.     Is  there  any  other  authority  in  operation? 

Q.     In  operation  elected  by  the  people? 

A.     No. 

Q.  The  only  other  authority  is  the  British  army  and  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     No  civil  authority? 

A.  No,  there  is  no  civil  authority  now  with  the  exception  of  the 
Republican  executive  bodies. 

Q.  There  is  no  other  group  of  civilians,  either  elected  or  named 
by  the  British  Government,  seeking  to  administer  to  the  people 

A.     No. 

Q.  How  many  British  soldiers  or  members  of  the  Roval  Irish 
Constabulary  in  the  last  two  years  have  been  assaulted,  killed,  or 
murdered  by  unknown  parties  in  your  vicinity? 

A.  In  the  vicinity?  In  the  town  there  have  been  two  cases  of 
shooting  in  or  near  the  town. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  the  last  two  years  did  the  Repub- 
lican police  try  in  any  way  to  investigate  or  protect  the  constables? 

A.     Do  you  mean  on  this  particular  occasion? 

Q.     On  any  occasion? 

A.  On  the  first  occasion  our  police  were  not  operating.  That 
was  a  good  while  as;o,  two  years  ago.     But  thev  have  been  very 


active  since.  I  have  known  of  cases  of  soldiers  rescued  from  the 
hands  of  mobs;  that  is  to  say,  drunken  soldiers  who  are  taken  and 
apt  to  be  maltreated.  I  have  known  them  to  be  taken  and  rescued 
by  the  Irish  police  officers. 

Q.     Are  they  known  as  such? 

A.     Oh,  no.     They  act  secretly. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  would  happen  to  a  man  who  was 
known  to  be  acting  as  an  Irish  police  officer? 

A.     He  would  be  arrested  on  the  spot. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  mean  about  policing  the  town 

A.  There  is  more  terror  struck  into  criminals  now  than  ever 
before.  They  know  they  cannot  escape  from  the  Irish  Republican 

Q.     What  happens  to  a  man  who  is  taken  by  your  police? 

A.  He  is  taken  to  what  is  known  as  an  unknown  destination.  If 
the  destination  was  known  the  army  would  swoop  down  on  them. 

Q.     Has  he  a  regular  trial? 

A.     Yes,  a  regular  trial. 

Q.     What  happens  to  him?     You  have  no  jails. 

A.  Sometimes  there  are  jails.  A  secret  house  will  do.  And 
there  are  fines.  And  we  order  them  to  leave  the  district.  They 
may  be  deported  out  of  that,  and  sent  away.  Very  often  they  are 
taken  down  to  the  boat  and  sent  away  to  the  other  side,  for  very 
often  they  are  from  the  other  side. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  To  what  extent  is  the  town  you  live 
in  organized? 

A.     I  beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  To  what  extent  is  the  town  you  live  in  organized  as  far  as 
labor  is  concerned? 

A.  All  the  labor  possible  in  our  town  is  organized,  and  then  we 
have  a  trades  council,  which  consists  of  elected  members  from  the 
trades  unions. 

Q.      Is  this  council  molested  in  any  way? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  There  has  been  a  meeting  of  the  Irish  Transport 
Workers  broken  up  by  the  police. 

Q.  Are  the  organized  labor  groups  in  sympathy  with  the  Re- 


A.  Oh,  every  one  of  them.  One  hundred  per  cent.  Every  one 
of  them. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Can  you  give  us  a  financial  statement  of 
the  amount  of  damage  that  has  been  done  to  property  in  your 
vicinity  by  attacks  on  your  town? 

A.     By  attacks  on  the  town? 

Q.     What  that  represents  in  dollars  and  cents? 

A.  No,  I  would  not  attempt  to  do  that.  That  would  be  a 
financial  matter  that  I  could  not  answer. 

Chairman  Howe:  It  is  now  one  o'clock.  We  will  adjourn  until 

2:25  P.  M. 
Chairman  Howe:  Will  the  hearing  please  come  to  order?     Are 
there  further  questions  that  members  of  the  Commission  want  to 
ask  the  witness? 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  There  is  one  question  I  want  to  ask  the 
last  witness.  To  what  extent,  if  at  all,  have  restrictions  been  put 
upon  the  printing  in  the  press  of  Ireland  of  news  items  relating  to 
the  activities  of  the  Republican  movement  and  the  officials  of  your 

A.  All  the  papers  have  been  warned  from  the  English  Govern- 
ment that  if  they  publish  any  news  like  that  they  will  be  suppressed. 

Q.  Have  you  any  specific  instances  where  there  has  been  a  re- 
fusal to  print  propaganda  in  favor  of  the  Republican  movement? 

A.  On  the  occasion  of  the  floating  of  the  Republic  Loan,  any 
paper  that  published  the  advertisement,  the  prospectus,  was  im- 
mediately suppressed. 

Q.     Were  they  suppressed? 

A.     Yes,  there  and  then  they  were  suppressed. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  many  papers  were  suppressed? 

A.  One  of  the  leading  papers  in  Dublin,  the  Freeman,  published 
it  and  was  suppressed  immediately. 

Q.     Was  that  one  of  the  papers  of  largest  circulation? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     To  what  extent  has  freedom  of  speech  been  restricted? 

A.     No  such  thing  as  a  public  meeting  is  now  allowed. 

Q.     For  how  long  a  time  has  that  been  in  force? 

A.     For  eighteen  months  or  two  years. 


Q.  Has  there  been  any  interference  with  the  religious  rights  of 
the  people? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  On  my  own  experience,  a  fortnight  before  I  left 
for  here.  I  was  leaving  a  church.  The  whole  street  was  suddenly 
blocked  up  by  motor  lorries  and  soldiers,  and  every  man  coming 
out  of  the  church  was  held  up  and  searched. 

Q.     How  many  were  thus  held? 

A.     There  must  have  been  thousands. 

Q.     When  was  that? 

A.     About  a  Sunday  before  the  seventh  of  November. 

Q.     Just  this  year? 

A.     Just  this  year,  just  before  I  left. 

Q.  What  were  they  searching  for,  arms  or  documents  or  some- 
thing else? 

A.     It  must  have  been  arms.     I  presume  arms. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  interference  of  your  personal  knowledge 
of  the  holding  of  religious  services  by  any  religious  denomination? 

A.     Not  of  my  own  experience. 

Q.     Do  they  have  religious  services  at  night? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  they  still  held  at  night? 

A.     They  are. 

Q.  What  if  any  effect  upon  the  attendance  is  due  to  this  con- 
dition you  have  described? 

A.  We  have  missions  in  Ireland,  perhaps  once  a  year,  for  a 
particular  parish  or  a  particular  church.  It  has  happened  that  as 
the  people  came  out  of  the  churches,  it  might  be  a  bit  late,  they 
have  been  stopped  and  searched. 

Q.     Apparently  to  find  out  if  they  are  carrying  arms? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Much  of  your  testimony  related  to  the 
early  part  of  this  year? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  the  conditions  improving  or  getting  worse? 

A.  Getting  worse.  As  to  that  there  can  be  no  question.  There 
is  now  no  end  of  suppression  of  freedom  of  speech. 

Q.  How  about  the  military  authorities?  Are  there  more  clashes 
with  their  men  than  two  months  ago  or  not? 

A.  It  is  constantly  reported  in  the  papers  daily  that  more 
troops  are  coming  over,  coming  by  thousands. 


Q.     You  mean  that  troops  are  being  massed  by  the  thousands? 

A.     Yes,  sir, 

Q.  Do  they  come  organized  as  a  military  expedition  or  more 
as  a  police  force? 

A.  It  is  very  hard  to  place  this  Auxiliary  Corps  I  spoke  of 
under  any  head.  It  is  not  a  police  force.  It  is  more  for  raiding 
purposes.  It  seems  to  be  particularly  the  duty  of  the  Auxiliary 
Corps  to  carry  out  raids  on  houses. 

Q.  You  have  described  conditions  around  about  Thurles.  How 
is  it  elsewhere? 

A.  I  have  had  experience  at  Dublin  for  the  past  few  weeks 
before  I  left.  You  might  be  going  down  the  main  streets  any  time 
of  the  day,  and  suddenly  you  hear  a  shout,  "Whoop,"  and  suddenly 
both  ends  of  the  street  are  stopped  up.  Shots  are  fired  over  the 
heads  of  the  bystanders  and  then  everyone  is  searched.  Now  they 
are  always  accompanied  by  armored  cars  carrying  machine  guns. 
The  armored  cars  drive  right  up  on  the  foot  path  where  the  people 
stand  so  that  they  have  to  clear  out  in  all  directions  in  order  to 
escape.  On  almost  any  street  of  Dublin  you  can  see  these  armored 
cars  going  along  with  bayonets  sticking  out,  and  very  often  they 
fire  shots,  apparently  to  see  the  women  and  people  scream  and  fly 
in  all  directions. 

Q.     Very  often  they  fire  in  the  air? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  The  reason  for  searching  persons  is  to  see  if  they  have  any 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  do  they  do  it? 

A.  They  take  a  particular  street  or  a  particular  section  and 
search  that.  There  was  D'Olier  Street  a  short  time  ago.  Both  ends 
of  the  street  were  cut  off  by  a  cordon.  No  one  was  allowed  to  go 
inside  it.  They  were  raiding  some  house  inside  that  area.  A  shot 
went  off.  Immediately  an  officer  gave  orders  to  his  men  and  they 
immediately  lay  flat  on  the  ground  with  their  guns  pointed  on  the 
ready.  Suddenly  a  man  rushed  out  of  his  office  and  said  to  the 
officer:  "Hold,  that  shot  was  fired  by  one  of  your  own  men."  The 
officer  had  the  presence  of  mind  to  say  "Hold"  to  the  men.  And  it 
was  found  that  a  soldier  had  accidentally  dropped  his  rifle  and  it 
had  gone  off.  It  was  only  the  presence  of  mind  of  the  man  who 
rushed  out  of  the  office  that  saved  the  situation. 



Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  know  whether,  in 
your  official  position  as  executive  of  the  town,  if  there  should 
be  another  of  these  killings  of  constables,  you  would  feel  it  a  part 
of  your  official  duty  to  go  into  it  and  try  to  apprehend  the  man 

A.  You  must  remember  that  that  does  not  come  within  the 
scope  of  my  duties.  We  do  not  have  that  power  now  and  we  did 
not  have  it  under  the  old  regime.  We  cannot  do  anything  of  that 
kind.  We  have  no  control  over  this  Irish  Constabulary  force.  We 
cannot  direct  them  to  do  this  or  to  do  that  or  anything  else. 

Q.  But  if  he  is  injured  on  the  streets  of  the  town  of  which  you 
are  acting  mayor,  you  can  do  nothing  about  it  then? 

A.  No.  We  have  nothing  to  do  at  all  about  that.  We  have  no 
power  to  do  anything. 

Q.  Under  the  old  system  could  you  call  upon  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary  to  preserve  order? 

A.     Anybody  can  do  that. 

Q.     But  you  had  no  authority  under  the  old  system? 

A.    No. 

Q.  Under  the  present  system  you  are  looked  upon  as  outlaws 
and  as  enemies  of  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes. 


There  is  a  point  about  the  coroner's  inquest  that  I  spoke  of  this 
morning.     Now  there  are  no  coroners'  inquests  allowed. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  When  did  they  stop? 

A.  Within  the  last  couple  of  months,  when  this  latest  emergency 
legislation  came  out.  The  coroners  are  warned  not  to  hold  any 
inquests  in  case  of  a  shooting.  Instead,  a  military  inquest  is  held 
and  an  official  account  is  later  issued.  In  fact,  English  newspaper 
reporters  writing  up  the  situation  have  been  threatened  openly  by 
the  police. 

Q.     Can  you  give  a  specific  instance  of  that? 

A.  Mr.  Hugh  Martin,  who  represents  some  big  English  paper, 
was  across  in  Ireland  for  his  paper,  and  he  wrote  up  an  account  of 
a  shooting  by  the  Constabulary,  and  he  reports  that  his  life  was 
threatened  on  the  streets  of  Tralee. 


Q.     What  kind  of  a  threat? 

A.     That  if  he  did  not  clear  out  he  would  be  taken. 


Q.  To  what  extent  have  the  Irish  citizens  refused  to  serve  in  the 
British  courts? 

A.  They  have  absolutely  refused  to  obey  the  summons  of  these 

Q.     Is  that  practically  unanimous  all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     The  same  thing  is  true  about  the  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  it  is  practically  impossible  for  the  British  Government 
to  get  a  citizen  of  Ireland  to  serve  on  a  jury  or  in  the  Irish  Con- 

A.     Yes,  sir;  quite  difficult. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  civic  bodies  where  Irishmen  formerly 
rendered  service  under  British  authority  where  they  have  protested 
against  it  now,  other  than  police  and  jury  service? 

A.  Of  course  the  magistrates  have  all  handed  up  their  magis- 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Are  there  any  magistrates  now  except  the 
R.  M.'s — that  is,  the  resident  magistrates,  who  are  paid  officials? 

A.     No. 

Q.  So  the  protest  has  practically  gone  to  the  extent  of  every 
Irish  man  and  woman  refusing  to  hold  a  position  of  authority  in 
Ireland   under  British   rule? 

A.  Yes,  they  refuse  to  recognize  the  functions  of  the  other  party 
in  Ireland. 


Q.     Are  there  any  other  points  you  want  to  bring  out? 

A.  There  is  just  one  other  case  in  regard  to  shootings,  which 
happened  in  Thurles.  There  was  a  man  named  Cleary.  I  happened 
to  be  in  Dublin  at  the  time.  This  night  his  brother  by  some  means 
got  word  not  to  sleep  in  his  own  house.  His  name  was  John — 
John  Cleary.  So  he  did  not  go  home  and  sent  word  to  his  mother 
not  to  allow  his  brother  to  sleep  in  his  house  either.  Michael 
stopped  out  until  one  in  the  morning,  and  then  thought  that  every- 
thing was  quiet  and  safe  and  proceeded  home.  At  one-thirty  there 
was  a  knock  at  the  door,  and  he  went  down  in  his  trousers  and 
opened  it.  He  was  immediately  confronted  by  four  armed  men 
wearing  trench  helmets,  and  was  asked  something  about  whether  he 


knew  anything  of  the  killing  of  a  policeman,  and  immediately  he 
was  fired  upon.  The  bullet  entered  his  chin  and  penetrated  the 
shoulder  and  came  out  of  his  back.  He  had  a  very  narrow  escape 
with  his  life.  Fortunately,  he  has  not  died.  He  was  not  the  man 
they  wanted.  They  wanted  his  brother.  The  same  night  the  as- 
sistant town  clerk  of  Thurles  was  looked  up,  about  a  half  hour 
subsequent  to  that.     He  was  not  at  home  at  the  time. 

Q.     Who  was  Cleary?     What  was  his  position? 

A.     He  was  a  coach  builder  in  the  town. 

Q.     A  reputable  citizen? 

A.     Yes.     He  was  only  a  young  chap,  an  ex-pupil  of  mine. 

Q.     How  old? 

A.     About  twenty-three. 

Q.     Was  he  a  Republican  in  politics? 

A.  ^es,  he  was  known  as  a  Republican.  He  did  not  have  a 
very  prominent  part,  however. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  this  shooting? 

A.  I  cannot  give  you  the  exact  date.  However,  it  would  be  about 
five  weeks  ago. 

Q.      Had  any  British  officer  been  injured  or  shot  previous  to  that? 

A.     No. 

Q.  Was  it,  to  your  knowledge,  due  to  any  act  of  assault  or 
murder  committed  by  the  citizens  of  your  town? 

A.     We  could  not  find  anything  at  all  happened. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  what  was  the  motive  for  these  British 
officers  to  call  at  this  house,  either  for  Cleary  or  his  brother? 

A.  They  probably  considered  that  his  brother  was  a  member  of 
the  I.  R.  A.,  the  Irish  Republican  Army.  They  probably  intended 
to  take  him  out  and  shoot  him.  He  was  not  there,  and  so  they  shot 
the  brother  instead. 

Q.     What  was  the  question  they  asked  him? 

A.     Did  he  know  anything  about  the  shooting  of  a  policeman. 

Q.     Had  there  been  any  policeman  shot? 

A.     No,  not  since  the  preceding  January. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Is  there  any   other  testimony? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  We  have  one  question  we  would  like  to  ask 
him.  You  detailed  a  number  of  coroners'  inquests  wherein  the 
verdict  was  that  it  was  a  wilful  murder.  Was  there  any  action 
taken  after  the  coroner's  jury  verdict  by  the  British   Government? 

A.     No. 



Chairman  Howe:  I  might  say  that  the  cablegrams  asking  witnesses 
to  come  here  were  sent  to  officials  of  towns  and  cities  which  were 
quoted  as  towns  in  which  outrages  of  some  kind  were  carried  on. 
The  Commission  cabled  to  Belfast  and  thirty-four  other  towns,  to 
the  mayors  of  those  towns.  It  was  an  impersonal  cable  rather  than 
a  personal  cable. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  personally  received  a  cable  from  this 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  receive  it? 

A.     On  the  Sunday  before  I  left. 

Q.     So  no  Irish  society  brought  you  here? 

A.  No,  I  came  only  at  the  request  of  the  Commission.  I  re- 
ceived a  cablegram  and  immediately  proceeded  the  following  Sun- 
day morning. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  am  asking  you  because  I  want  it  a  matter  of 
record  that  you  are  brought  here  and  your  expenses  are  paid  by  this 
Commission,  and  you  came  as  a  witness  for  the  Commission. 

( The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. ) 

Chairman  Howe:  There  are  three  Americans  who  have  recently 
been  in  Ireland  who  are  here  and  want  to  testify  and  get  away  this 
afternoon.  They  are  Father  English  and  Mr.  Furnas  and  Reverend 
Cotter.  The  testimony  of  these  American  witnesses  will  be  con- 
ducted by  the  Commission.     Father  English. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Father  English,  will  you  please  state  your 
name  and  residence  and  your  professional  position  and  any  other 
preliminary  facts? 

A.  My  name  is  Michael  M.  English.  I  live  in  the  town  of 
Whitehall,  Montana.  I  am  the  pastor  of  the  Catholic  Church  there, 
the  only  Catholic  Church  in  the  town. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.     In  Ireland. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  in  America? 

A.  I  have  been  in  America  for  thirteen  years.  I  came  to  this 
country  in  1907. 

Q.     Where  did  you  get  your  education? 

A.     In  Saint  Paul.  Minnesota. 


Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen? 

A.     I  am. 

Q.     When  did  you  become  an  American  citizen? 

A.  Just  one  year  ago.  The  reason  the  citizenship  was  postponed 
was  that  because,  when  I  arrived  in  this  country,  I  was  just  sixteen 
years  of  age,  and  waited  until  I  was  twenty-one  before  getting  my 
first  papers.  Then  I  made  a  visit  back  to  Ireland,  and  I  found  upon 
my  return  that  I  could  not  get  my  citizenship  papers  because  of 
my  absence  from  the  country  on  my  trip  to  Ireland.  I  had  to 
take  out  my  first  papers  again,  and  became  a  citizen  just  as  soon 
as  possible. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Are  there  any  other  preliminary  facts? 

A.     No. 

Q.  You  have  been  recently  in  Ireland.  Now  proceed  and  tell 
what  you  saw. 

Senator  Walsh:  What  was  your  reason  for  going  to  Europe? 

A.  First  of  all,  to  visit  my  parents  in  Ireland  and  to  visit  in 
England  some  friends  of  mine,  and  to  visit  France,  Italy,  and  espe- 
cially Rome.  I  arrived  in  Ireland  about  the  third  of  May  of  this 
year.  I  sailed  from  Cove  in  Ireland  about  the  first  of  September. 
I  was  in  Ireland  all  of  this  time  with  the  exception  of  about  five 
weeks,  which  I  spent  in  France  and  England  upon  two  occasions. 

Q.     Proceed  with  the  story  of  your  experiences  in  Ireland. 


A.  The  part  of  the  story  I  wish  to  relate  first  is  the  most  intimate 
experience  I  had  in  Ireland.  It  occurred  on  the  evening  of  Mon- 
day, the  twenty-ninth  of  August.  I  left  my  father's  home  on  Tues- 
day, the  thirtieth  of  August,  to  go  to  Cove  and  take  the  boat  for 
America  the  next  day. 

Q.     Cove  was  formerly  Queenstown? 

A.  Yes.  That  is  the  name  it  legally  has  now,  even  under 
British  law. 

Q.     Did  you  not  state  where  your  father's  home  was? 

A.     In  the  County  of  Limerick. 

Q.     The  parish? 

A.  The  parish  is  Templebredan.  The  nearest  town  is  Hospital, 
four  miles  away.  On  this  evening,  while  my  baggage  was  being 
made  up,  consisting  of  two  grips  and  a  trunk,  I  was  in  my  father's 
house,  which  is  about  a  hundred  yards  from  the  road.  About  half 
past  five  a  military  lorry  came  down  the  road  from  the  direction 
of  the  town  of  Hospital  and  stopped  at  the  gate.     The  soldiers  ran 


into  the  avenue  and  surrounded  the  house.  There  are  two  doors 
in  the  house,  a  kitchen  door  and  a  hall  door  facing  the  road  on  the 
other  side.  I  came  to  the  hall  door  just  in  time  to  see  the  troops 
form  a  circle  around  that  end  of  the  house.  These  troops,  I  might 
explain,  were  dressed  in  khaki  and  wore  trench  helmets  and  carried 
rifles  with  bayonets  on  them.  Two  men  who  seemed  to  be  officers, 
whom  we  afterwards  discovered  to  be  officers,  were  armed  only  with 
revolvers  in  their  belts.  One  of  these  officers  came  to  the  door  and 
demanded  that  all  of  the  men  in  the  house  must  come  out  on  the 
lawn  in  front  of  the  house  and  be  searched.  They  told  my  mother 
that  the  ladies  and  myself  did  not  need  to  come  out,  because  I  was 
a  priest.  My  brothers  were  all  searched  except  my  small  brother, 
about  seventeen,  who  said,  "I  refuse  to  come  out."  And  the  officer 
pulled  his  revolver  and  said:  "You  come  out  or  I  will  give  you 
the  contents  of  this."  Then  the  search  went  on.  As  my  father's 
watch  was  taken  out  of  his  pocket  he  said,  "I  want  you  to  return 
the  watch."  The  officer  said:  ''Escort  this  man  to  the  lorry."  The 
search  of  the  other  men  proceeded.  The  body  search  was  finished 
in  about  fifteen  minutes.  Then  the  officers  attempted  to  enter  the 


I  was  standing  in  the  hall  door.  I  said:  "I  want  to  know  who 
the  commanding  officer  is."  He  said,  "I  am."  I  said,  "I  have 
property  in  this  house,  my  personal  belongings.  As  an  American 
citizen  I  require  that  these  be  immune  from  search."  He  said, 
"Your  American  citizenship  does  not  count  here.  You  are  on  Brit- 
ish soil."  I  said,  "Still  I  am  an  American,  and  subject  only  to 
the  ordinary  civil  courts."  He  said,  "That  does  not  count.  Your 
citizenship  does  not  entitle  you  to  any  privileges  here."  He  re- 
peated, "It  does  not  count  here,  and  your  property  will  be  searched." 
Then  I  said,  "I  am  anxious  on  my  return  to  America  to  enter  a 
protest  to  my  government  against  this.  In  order  that  my  protest 
may  be  intelligent,  I  want  to  know  your  name,  your  rank,  and  the 
name  of  your  regiment."  He  said,  "I  absolutely  refuse  to  give  you 
any  information."  I  said,  "Do  you  mean  that  I  am  not  going  to 
know  who  is  searching  me?"  He  said,  "I  will  give  you  no  infor- 
mation whatever.  I  have  been  forbidden  to  do  so.  I  cannot  do  it." 
I  said,  "Then  I  require  you  to  produce  your  authority  for  searching 
me."  He  tapped  his  revolver  and  said.  "This  is  my  authority." 
I  said,  "That  is  not  enough."  He  said,  "Do  you  want  to  see  a  little 
more  of  it?" 

The  search  of  the  house  proceeded.     They  started  on  the  lower 


floor.  There  is  a  parlor,  a  large  room,  and  a  little  breakfast  room 
on  the  lower  floor.  One  of  the  officers,  whom  I  afterwards  dis- 
covered to  be  Captain  V.  H.  Wells  (the  other  one,  with  whom  I 
held  the  conversation,  was  afterward  discovered  to  be  Major  Gray), 
— the  captain  went  into  the  little  breakfast  room  accompanied  by 
my  mother.  The  major  asked  me  to  accompany  him  on  his  search. 
In  the  parlor  he  took  the  rug  off  the  floor.  I  also  wish  to  state 
that  during  the  search  no  property  was  damaged  in  any  way.  He 
removed  the  rug  off  the  floor,  lifted  up  the  tablecloth,  examined 
all  papers  in  the  room,  took  the  pictures  off  the  wall  and  removed 
the  cardboard  off  the  back  of  them.  Evidently  he  was  looking  for 
documents.  On  the  mantel  piece  were  also  some  letters  of  mine 
addressed  to  me,  containing  nothing  but  social  and  personal  cor- 
respondence. These  the  major  took  in  his  hand.  I  said,  "All  these 
letters  are  mine."  He  said,  "I  am  going  to  read  them."  He  put 
them  in  his  pocket,  although  I  requested  him  to  hand  them  over 
to  me.  Those  letters  were  never  returned.  The  captain,  who 
searched  the  other  room,  reported  that  he  was  through.  Then  all 
four  of  us  went  upstairs.  On  one  side  of  the  stairway  upstairs  are 
two  rooms,  one  the  room  that  I  had  been  using,  and  the  other  room 
used  by  a  couple  of  my  brothers.  I  stood  again  in  the  door  leading 
into  the  room  which  I  had  been  occupying,  and  I  said,  "This  is  my 
room.  There  is  nothing  in  here  that  is  not  my  property,  and  I  insist 
as  an  American  citizen  that  it  be  not  searched,  at  least  without  a 
proper  warrant."  The  major  stated  again  that  that  made  no  differ- 
ence, and  the  protest  was  unavailing.  My  mother  accompanied  the 
captain  during  the  search  of  my  room.  I  went  into  my  brothers' 
room  with  the  major.  In  that  room  is  a  wardrobe  with  coats  and 
vests  and  trousers  hanging  in  it,  and  one  bed.  He  searched  the 
wardrobe.  In  a  pocket  of  the  wardrobe  he  discovered  a  card  of 
membership  in  the  Irish  Volunteers,  made  out  in  the  name  of 
Patrick  English,  a  brother  of  mine.  He  showed  me  this  card  at 
the  time  he  found  it.  He  said,  "Who  is  Patrick  English?"  I  re- 
fused to  give  him  any  information  whatever.  He  said,  "We  will 
take  every  man  here  until  we  discover  who  he  is.  We  will  remove 
them  all."  He  proceeded  with  the  search.  He  took  the  bedclothes 
off  the  bed,  including  the  mattress,  removed  the  rug  again  off  the 
floor,  looked  on  top  of  the  wardrobe  and  under  it  (it  was  a  loose 
wardrobe,  not  attached  to  the  wall),  and  then  he  sounded  the  ceiling 
with  the  butt  of  his  revolver,  and  he  sounded  portions  of  the  floor 
and  the  wall.  In  the  meantime,  the  captain,  as  I  have  stated,  was 
conducting  the  search  of  my  room.  I  went  in  there  with  the  major. 
This  captain  who  was  conducting  the  search  in  mv  room  never  at 


any  time  appeared  in  the  room  where  we  were.  I  discovered  that 
things  were  considerably  upset,  but  nothing  damaged,  indicating 
that  a  very  thorough  search  had  been  made.  I  found  that  other 
letters  which  were  only  of  a  personal  nature  were  taken,  that  a 
photo  which  had  been  taken  of  myself  in  Butte,  Montana,  many 
years  ago  had  also  been  taken,  and  that  notes  of  mine  from  my 
trip  around  England,  Ireland,  and  France  had  also  been  taken,  i 
asked  the  major  again  for  the  return  of  these  notes,  but  he  again 
refused.  They  also  searched  the  rooms  on  the  other  side  of  the 
stairway.  As  far  as  I  know,  nothing  was  taken.  Then  we  all  went 

The  major  said.  "Who  is  Patrick  English?"  My  brother  stepped 
out.  He  said,  "You  are  under  arrest."  They  removed  my  brother 
down  to  the  gate.  My  mother,  my  brother,  and  myself  went  down 
to  the  gate  to  see  him  off.  He  said,  "What  charge  have  you  against 
me?"  The  major  refused  to  reply.  As  we  were  going  down  to  the 
gate.  I  warned  the  others  to  go  back.  I  said,  "They  might  fire  on 
us.  They  are  liable  to  turn  the  machine  gun  in  the  lorry  on  us. 
We  had  better  go  back." 


As  a  continuation  of  this,  the  next  morning,  as  I  was  leaving  for 
Cove  to  take  the  boat,  the  next  morning  about  half  past  ten  a  young 
man  who  lives  in  a  house  about  three  miles  from  there  named  Kirby 
came  up  there  and  said  to  me  privately,  "Our  house  was  raided  last 
night  at  midnight.  They  asked  where  you  lived  and  one  of  them 
said,  'We  are  going  to  shoot  English  on  the  morrow.'  "  That  was 
the  last  I  heard  until  I  got  to  Montana,  and  I  got  a  letter  which 
said  that  my  brother  had  been  sentenced  to  six  months.  I  also  got 
a  letter  from  my  father,  who  said  that  on  the  next  evening  the 
Black-and-Tans  came  and  surrounded  the  house  and  fired  on  my 
brothers,  who  were  out  in  the  fields  around  the  house,  but  they  did 
not  get  hurt.  The  District  Inspector  was  in  charge,  and  he  asked 
for  the  Reverend  English.  He  was  told  that  I  was  on  my  way  to 
America.  The  District  Inspector  swore  that  if  ever  he  got  his  hands 
on  me.  it  would  be  a  long  time  until  I  saw  New  York.  On  the 
mantelpiece  was  a  picture  of  George  Washington. 

Q.     Who  was  this  District  Inspector? 

A.  He  was  the  district  inspector  of  police  from  a  place  called 
Pallas.  He  took  the  picture  of  George  Washington,  threw  it  on 
the  floor,  and  put  his  heel  on  it  and  said,  "This  is  what  ought  to 
happen  to  all  these  bloody  Americans." 

That  is  all  of  my  personal  experiences. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  at  any  time  during  your  presence 
in  that  town  participate  in  any  way  in  political  matters? 

A.  No,  I  made  up  my  mind  that  I  would  not  take  any  part  in 
politics.  I  was  asked  to  speak  on  one  occasion  in  Limerick,  but 
refused  on  that  ground. 

Q.  Did  your  father  or  brothers  participate  in  any  way  in  any 
attacks  upon   British  officers  or   authorities? 

A.     No,  not  at  any  time. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  why  they  singled  out  the 
house  where  you  were  for  this  raid? 

A.  The  explanation  which  I  think  is  feasible  is  that,  like  other 
people  in  that  part  of  the  country,  my  father  is  known  to  be  de- 
sirous of  a  Republican  government  in  Ireland.  He  has  made  no 
secret  of  it,  and  has  advocated  it  on  all  occasions.  He  happens  to 
be  one  of  the  most  prominent  farmers  in  that  part  of  the  country. 
I  suppose  that  was  one  reason.  Another  reason  is,  and  I  forgot  to 
state  it,  in  the  course  of  the  search  a  telegram  was  found  in  one  of 
the  rooms — an  old  telegram.  It  was  sent  by  me  to  my  brother.  It 
was  sent  from  Lisdoonvarna,  in  the  County  of  Clare.  I  sent  it  about 
the  first  of  August  to  my  brother  Patrick,  who  was  arrested  that 
night.  There  were  races  taking  place  in  Galway.  I  had  been  away 
from  home  about  two  weeks,  and  had  wired  to  my  brother  to  join 
me  at  the  race  meeting.  Everybody  goes  to  the  race  meetings  in 
Ireland.  I  wired  him:  "Will  you  be  able  to  come  to  the  meeting 
in  Galway?  Bring  New  York  papers."  The  major  discovered  this 
and  called  the  captain's  attention  to  it  (he  carefully  refrained  from 
calling  him  captain),  and  said,  "Here  is  something."  That  was 
pocketed.  This  bore  out  a  suspicion  they  might  have  had  that  I  was 
a  medium  for  communication  between  New  York  and  Ireland. 

Q.  This  meeting  was  a  race  meeting  and  they  interpreted  it  as  a 
political  meeting? 

A.     Yes,  evidently. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  mentioned  that  when  your 
father's  watch  was  taken,  he  asked  that  the  watch  be  returned,  and 
then  the  officer  in  command  ordered  that  he  be  taken  away.  What 
happened  to  your  father? 

A.  He  was  sent  back  when  the  lorry  left.  He  was  only  taken  to 
the  gate.    He  was  not  injured  in  any  way. 


Q.     How  old  is  your  father? 

A.     About  fifty-one  years  of  age. 

Q.     A  farmer? 

A.     Yes,  a  farmer. 

Q.     How  large  a  home  have  you  there? 

A.  It  is  about  sixty  acres,  which  is  a  fair-sized  farm  in  that  part 
of  the  country. 

Q.     Did  your  brothers  work  upon  the  farm? 

A.     Yes,  with  the  exception  of  the  one  who  is  going  to  college. 

Q.     This  young  brother  of  seventeen  was  going  to  college? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  going  to  Rothwell. 

Q.  There  was  nothing  in  the  conduct  of  the  members  of  your 
family  that  would  justify  such   a  raid? 

A.  Absolutely  nothing,  except  that  our  sympathies  were  well 

Q.  Did  you  find  out  that  the  sympathies  of  the  other  people  in 
that  village  were  of  the  same  kind? 

A.  Yes,  the  sympathies  of  all  the  people  in  that  part  of  the 
country  are  Republican. 

Chairman  Howe:  Now  you  may  proceed. 


The  Witness:  I  will  try  to  give  a  chronological  account  of  my 
experiences.  I  remained  in  Ireland  all  the  time,  except  for  a  brief 
visit  in  France  and  England,  up  to  my  departure  for  this  country. 
In  traveling  around  to  visit  my  friends  it  was  an  ordinary  experience 
to  be  held  up  by  the  military  on  the  country  roads.  A  motor  lorry 
would  be  alongside  the  road  surrounded  by  soldiers,  and  everybody 
in  the  car  was  searched  and  the  car  itself  was  searched,  all  except 
myself.  I  never  was  searched,  although  I  was  held  up  many  times 
with  others  who  were  searched.  These  lorries  drive  along  the  prin- 
cipal roads  almost  every  day,  going  to  and  fro  at  a  high  rate  of 

Q.     Will  you  describe  these  lorries? 

A.  The  lorry  is  a  large  truck  with  an  automobile  engine.  It  is 
very  large.  It  seats  between  twenty  and  thirty.  In  the  large  ones 
they  have  machine  guns,  and  soldiers  or  Black-and-Tans  ( it  depends 
upon  who  is  going  in  the  lorries),  silting  along  the  side  and  in  the 
back  with  rifles  at  the  ready.  These  soldiers  and  Black-and-Tans 
frequently  fire  on  cattle  or  horses  and  destroy  them  on  their  trips 
around  the  country.  I  will  give  one  example  of  which  I  have  per- 
sonal knowledge.     About  a  half  mile  from  my  place  lives  a  neigh- 


bor  in  a  cottage  by  the  road.  He  has  about  a  half  acre  of  ground. 
His  hogs  are  generally  along  the  road  by  the  house.  The  road  itself 
is  about  twenty-five  feet  wide,  and  on  either  side  there  is  a  hard 
surface.  Along  the  side  by  the  hard  surface  is  a  grassy  surface 
about  eight  to  ten  feet  wide  on  either  side.  One  afternoon  a  lorry 
was  passing  along,  and  two  pigs  were  on  the  hard  surface  between 
the  road  and  the  fence.  It  was  a  big  heavy  lorry  filled  with  sol- 
diers. The  lorry  turned  in  off  the  road  and  ran  over  the  pigs, 
breaking  the  back  of  one  and  the  legs  of  the  other,  so  that  they  had 
to  be  butchered.  I  came  along  about  a  half  hour  after  this,  and 
the  young  man  showed  me  that  the  lorry  had  turned  off  the  road 
and  ran  almost  into  the  fence  in  order  to  run  over  the  pigs.  I  give 
this  as  an  instance  of  the  mischief  they  do. 


On  the  night  of  the  fourteenth  of  August  there  was  a  shooting  in 
the  town  of  Hospital.  On  the  morning  of  Sunday,  the  fifteenth  of 
August,  I  went  from  my  own  place  to  the  town  of  Hospital,  and 
there  I  found  the  people  in  a  state  of  terror.  I  discovered  upon 
investigating  that  upon  the  previous  night  a  number  of  soldiers  had 
entered  the  house  of  a  man  named  Lynch,  Patrick  Lynch,  a  harness 
maker,  a  single  man  forty  years  of  age  living  with  his  two  sisters 
and  a  blind  father.  These  soldiers  had  entered  his  house  at  eleven- 
thirty  on  Saturday  night,  the  fourteenth  of  August,  while  they  were 
on  their  knees  saying  the  rosary.  They  dragged  him — or  rather 
they  first  asked  him  to  come  along.  He  said,  "Just  a  minute  until  I 
get  my  cap."  They  said,  "You  will  not  need  your  cap  in  the  place 
to  which  you  are  going."  They  took  him  out  about  a  hundred 
yards  to  a  place  called  the  Fair  Green,  the  village  square.  And 
then  they  shot  him. 

The  local  doctor  lives  in  a  place  about  fifty  yards  from  where  he 
was  shot,  and  they  dragged  him  out  and  told  him  a  man  was  shot. 
He  had  lived  in  this  town  about  thirty  years,  almost  as  long  as 
Lynch  himself.  The  doctor  saw  that  Lynch  was  dead.  There  were 
about  four  wounds  in  his  head.  His  body  was  badly  battered.  The 
powder  marks  were  on  his  face  in  such  a  way  that  the  doctor  did 
not  recognize  him.  He  asked  the  military  who  the  man  was.  He 
said,  "Does  he  live  in  this  town?"  The  doctor  knew  Lynch,  but 
he  did  not  recognize  the  body,  and  he  could  not  understand  why  he 
should  be  shot.  So  he  went  clown  with  the  military  to  Lynch's 
house,  and  knocked  on  the  door  and  asked  the  sisters  and  said.  "Is 


vour  brother  home?"  They  said,  "No,  the  military  took  him  out 
about  half  an  hour  ago."     He  then  knew  it  was  Lynch. 

Q.     Had  they  notified  the  sisters? 

A.  Yes.  The  next  day  a  report  was  made  public  by  the  police 
that  Lynch  was  shot  by  the  forces  of  the  Crown  in  attempting  to 
escape  from  arrest.  An  inquest  was  arranged  for.  This  was  before 
the  abolition  of  coroners'  inquests  in  the  county  of  Limerick.  I 
believe  it  was  called  for  the  following  Saturday,  which  would  be 
about  the  first  of  August,  I  think.  At  the  request  of  the  county 
coroner,  who  corresponds  roughly  to  what  we  call  the  county  at- 
torney, the  inquest  was  postponed  for  two  weeks. 

Q.     At  whose  request? 

A.  The  county  coroner,  the  representative  of  the  British  Gov- 
ernment, requested  that  the  inquest  be  postponed.  At  the  end  of 
two  weeks  it  was  held.  I  was  present  at  the  inquest  in  Hospital 
on  Monday,  about  the  twenty-second  of  August,  if  Monday  was  the 
twenty-second  of  August.  It  was  called  for  one  o'clock  in  the 
afternoon.  The  coroner  was  there.  A  jury  was  there,  which  had 
been  summoned  by  the  Head  Constable  of  the  Constabulary  at  the 
next  police  barracks,  which  was  about  five  miles  away.  The  wit- 
nesses were  there,  and  the  audience. 

Q.     The  jury  was  not  from  that  town? 

A.  No,  the  jury  was  not  from  that  town,  but  summoned  by  the 
police  from  five  miles  away.  They  waited  for  the  appearance  of 
the  Crown  Solicitor  until  three  o'clock,  and  for  the  appearance  of 
the  witnesses  of  the  military.  Then  a  telephone  call  came  from 
Limerick  from  the  Limerick  County  Solicitor,  Gaffney,  stating  that 
his  side  would  put  in  no  witnesses.  The  inquest  was  held.  The 
doctor,  his  sisters,  and  all  the  other  witnesses  who  saw  how  the  man 
had  died  and  the  nature  of  his  wounds,  testified.  The  verdict  was 
"wilful  murder"  against  the  military  stationed  in  Hospital  at  that 
time.  As  far  as  I  could  discover,  before  I  left  Ireland  and  since, 
I  have  heard  of  no  action  whatsoever  that  was  taken  against  any 
of  those  men  who  shot  him,  although  a  verdict  of  wilful  murder, 
brought  in  under  all  the  rules  of  English  law  in  Ireland,  was 

Q.  Did  the  soldiers  give  any  reason  to  the  doctor,  when  they 
called  him  to  view  the  body  of  Lynch,  for  murdering  him? 

A.     No,  they  gave  no  reason  whatever. 

Q.  Do  you  know  from  your  personal  inquiries  and  investigation 
as  to  whether  Lynch  had  been  active  in  doing  anything  that  would 
anger  or  create  any  hostility  against  him? 

A.     I  know  that  Lvnch,  in   the  first   place,  was  a  man   who  was 


not  in  full  possession  of  his  faculties;  he  was  not  insane,  but  he  was 
slightly  what  they  call  over  there  simple.  I  knew  him  when  I  went 
to  school  there  at  the  age  of  sixteen.  I  knew  him  as  a  very  harmless 
individual  who  never  took  part  in  politics  of  any  nature,  not  even 
in  the  old  days. 

Q.     What  explanation  do  you  give  for  the  murder  of  Lynch? 

A.  The  explanation  that  I  heard  around  there  from  the  people, 
and  which  has  since  been  verified  to  a  certain  extent,  was  that  they 
were  looking  for  some  Lynch  or  for  another  Lynch.  They  found 
that  he  was  the  only  man  of  that  name  in  Hospital,  and  they  shot 

Q.  Some  Lynch  that  they  thought  was  prominent  in  the  Repub- 
lican movement? 

A.  Yes,  some  Lynch  that  was  prominent  in  the  Republican 


Also  in  the  town  they  seized  the  house  of  the  man  to  whom  they 
came  first,  of  a  man  named  Sullivan.  His  house  overlooks  the  three 
short  streets  of  the  town.  They  seized  this  house  about  the  middle 
of  July — from  the  first  to  the  middle  of  July.  On  the  street  in  front 
they  built  a  barricade  of  sand  bags  and  stones,  and  in  this  barricade 
they  placed  a  machine  gun.  This  blockade  and  the  hollow  square 
inside  it  were  always  manned  by  some  soldiers.  One  afternoon 
about  a  week  after  they  had  occupied  this  house,  they  turned  the 
machine  gun  on  one  of  the  streets  of  the  town  and  raked  the  streets 
of  the  town  for  fifteen  minutes.  Fortunately,  the  people  got  word 
in  some  way  of  what  was  going  to  be  done,  and  there  was  no  one 
injured,  except  glass  broken  and  walls  injured  where  they  were  hit. 

Q.     Had  any  attacks  upon  soldiers  been  made  in  that  town? 

A.  No,  absolutely  none.  The  condition  in  Hospital  was  that 
that  was  a  police  barracks  in  Hospital  until  about  the  fifth  of  May. 
The  police  evacuated  the  barracks  about  the  fifth  of  May  and  left 
for  some  other  town.  On  the  night  that  they  evacuated  the  police 
barracks,  it  was  burned.  That  was  all  that  had  happened  in  that 
part  of  the  country  at  any  time  since  1916. 

Q.  Had  these  men  who  had  occupied  these  barracks  and  evacu- 
ated resigned? 

A.  No,  they  had  not  resigned.  They  were  moved  from  this 
barracks  and  taken  to  larger  quarters. 



I  live  fourteen  miles  from  the  city  of  Limerick.  Frequently 
during  the  summer  I  visited  the  city,  staying  over  night  or  for 
three  or  four  days,  for  I  had  some  friends  there.  In  the  city  of 
Limerick  there  is  a  large  military  barracks  containing  on  an  average 
perhaps  six  hundred  soldiers.  And  then  there  are  two  police 
barracks,  large  ones,  containing  possibly  four  hundred,  three- 
fourths  of  whom  are  Black-and-Tans,  and  the  other  members  were 
the  old  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.  During  the 
months  in  which  I  visited  Limerick,  it  was  a  frequent  occurrence 
for  the  Black-and-Tans  to  go  out  through  the  streets  at  night,  and 
especially  in  one  section  of  the  town,  Pennywell  is  the  name  of  it, 
and  there  about  eleven  or  twelve  o'clock  let  loose  their  guns,  firing 
in  the  air  or  at  some  house.  Anyway,  nobody  was  personally  in- 
jured. I  was  present  myself  in  Limerick  one  night.  I  was  staying 
with  a  clergyman  on  the  outskirts  of  the  city.  We  had  to  walk 
through  this  district  of  Pennywell.  As  we  were  proceeding  home 
some  Black-and-Tans  passed  by  us.  Just  as  they  turned  into  another 
street  we  heard  firing,  and  concluded  it  was  the  Black-and-Tans 
firing  there.  And  so  it  was.  They  were  not  attacked.  They  did 
not  state  that  they  were  attacked.  They  were  firing  to  terrorize  the 
people.  To  such  an  extent  was  that  true  that  this  disrict  of  Penny- 
well  was  called  the  Pennywell  sector  of  the  city  of  Limerick  because 
it  was  so  often  under  fire. 

Then  again,  on  Sunday,  the  fifteenth  of  August,  on  the  day  on 
which  I  had  discovered  about  the  shooting  of  Lynch,  I  went  home 
to  my  father's  house,  about  four  miles  away.  I  heard  that  a  part 
of  Limerick  was  on  fire.  On  Monday  I  went  to  the  city  of  Limerick 
to  investigate  the  matter.  I  remained  in  Limerick  on  that  occasion 
for  three  days.  I  went  out  to  the  Pennywell  district  and  there  I 
saw  that,  according  to  my  estimation,  about  two  hundred  houses 
had  been  injured,  some  slightly  and  others  more  seriously.  I 
found  there  the  marks  of  bullets,  and  in  a  number  of  instances  the 
marks  of  bombs,  where  bombs  had  been  hurled  through  the  win- 
dows and  exploded  on  the  floors;  and  other  places  where  the  fire 
was  still  smoldering.  Whether  the  fires  were  set  by  matches  or 
by  direct  application  of  bombs,  I  do  not  know.  I  discovered  thai 
all  that  had  been  done  on  the  day  before  by  the  Black-and-Tans. 
They  also  returned  to  the  city  proper  and  set  fire  or  hurled  bombs 
into  two  business  houses,  one  of  which  was  known  as  the  Railway 
Bar,  near  the  railroad  station. 


Some  time  previous  to  that,  on  Queen  Street  in  Limerick,  a  house 
belonging  to  a  man  named  Hartney  was  destroyed  at  about  mid- 
night. The  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  or  men  in 
their  uniform,  were  seen  running  away  from  the  house  about  mid- 
night. Immediately  a  tremendous  explosion  took  place  and  blew 
the  whole  front  of  the  house  down,  to  such  an  extent  that  the  second 
floor  leaned  down  on  the  first  floor.  Fortunately,  this  was  a  tea 
shop,  where  tea  and  light  lunches  were  served.  There  was  no  one 
in  the  house  on  this  night,  and  there  were  no  lives  lost. 


Then  again,  in  regard  to  the  burning  of  creameries.  On  Tuesday, 
the  twenty-second  of  August,  I  was  passing  through  the  town  of 
Knocklong,  in  the  County  of  Limerick,  and  there  I  discovered  that 
the  creamery  was  partially  destroyed.  It  was  a  creamery  belonging 
to  a  man  named  Cleeves,  Sir  Thomas  Cleeves,  a  Unionist  in  politics. 
He  lives  in  the  city  of  Limerick,  and  had  been  knighted  by  the  late 
King  Edward.  This  creamery  was  one  of  the  largest  in  the  south 
of  Ireland,  probably  hiring  about  fifty  or  sixty  men,  and  was  worth 
about  three  hundred  thousand  dollars.  I  stopped  off  there  when  I 
saw  the  crowd  around.  It  was  partially  destroyed.  I  inquired  from 
those  around  what  had  happened.  They  told  me  that  at  about  two 
o'clock  on  that  morning  a  lorry  containing  men  in  the  uniform  of 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  appeared  in  town,  entered  the  cream- 
ery, and  threw  bombs  in  the  engine  room,  which  was  the  center  of 
the  creamery,  and  attempted  to  set  fire  to  other  rooms  in  that 
creamery,  and  then  left.  The  people,  on  the  departure  of  the  police, 
all  turned  out,  and  they  extinguished  the  fire  in  a  very  short  time 
in  the  other  part  of  the  building,  but  the  bombs  had  already  de- 
stroyed the  machinery  in  the  engine  room.  The  central  engine 
plant  of  the  creamery  was  a  total  wreck,  and  the  creamery  was  out 
of  business  and  is  as  yet.  The  result  is  that  the  farmers  in  that  part 
of  the  country — it  is  a  dairying  country — the  farmers  have  been 
compelled  to  feed  the  milk  which  they  sent  to  the  creamery  to  the 
pigs  and  calves  or  throw  it  away.  They  can  no  longer  supply  it  to 
the  creamery,  have  it  made  into  butter  and  cheese,  and  get  a  return 
for  it. 

I  must  also  state  that  no  compensation  has  at  any  time  been  made 
by  the  British  Government  for  any  of  the  work  of  destruction  that 
has  been  proved  against  its  own  forces  in  Ireland,  especially  in  the 
line  of  the  destruction  of  creameries  and  the  blowing  up  and  burn- 
ing of  houses. 


Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  explanation  for  ihe  destruction  of  this 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  About  the  date  that  I  arrived  in  Ireland,  a  fresh 
correspondent  there,  one  of  the  representatives  of  the  Paris  Matin. 
had  an  interview  with  Lord  French,  the  Lieutenant  Governor  of 
Ireland.  This  was  published  in  the  papers  over  there,  the  English 
and  Irish  papers.  He  asked  French  what  the  trouble  was  in  Ireland. 
French  said  the  difficultv  in  Ireland  was  two  hundred  thousand 
young  men  who  should  have  emigrated.  I  believe  that  the  only 
possible  reason  and  the  explanation  that  I  heard  around  there  was 
that  the  reason  for  the  destruction  of  these  creameries  and  other 
business  houses  was  to  throw  out  of  employment  the  young  men 
and  compel  them  to  leave  the  country — in  addition,  of  course,  to  the 
auxiliarv  reason,  the  attempt  to  terrorize  out  of  the  minds  of  the 
people  their  hope  for  independence. 

Q.  Did  the  owner  of  this  creamery,  whom  you  state  was  a 
Lnionist,  do  anything  there  in  that  part  that  would  create  a  hostile 
feeling  toward  him? 

A.  Nothing  except  that  he  has  been  known  as  a  Unionist  in 
politics.  He  has  taken  no  part  in  politics,  however.  He  owns  large 
creameries  all  over  the  south  of  Ireland,  and  large  business  estab- 
lishments in  Limerick. 

Q.      Has  he  made  any  statement  of  this  matter? 

A.  I  am  sure  he  has  made  a  statement  to  the  British  Government, 
but  no  statement  of  his  has  been  published. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  May  I  ask  the  question:  You  have 
been  close  to  some  of  these  soldiers,  these  Black-and-Tans.  Ireland 
is  not  dry.     Have  you  noticed  any  drunkenness  among  them? 

A.  I  have.  I  have  noticed  in  the  city  of  Limerick  a  number  of 
soldiers  and  Black-and-Tans  that  were  very  ostensibly  under  the 
influence  of  liquor.  I  have  heard  it  stated  in  their  barracks  that 
they  were  given  in  their  barracks  free  drink,  in  addition  to  their 
ration,  especially  just  before  going  out  on  a  raid.  But  I  have  seen 
them  myself  very  much  under  the  influence  of  liquor. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  On  duty  or  off  duty? 

A.  It  is  very  difficult  to  tell.  I  know  that  they  are  almost  always 
on  duty. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Oh,  yes;  a  soldier  is  almost  always  on 
duty  except  when  on  leave  of  absence. 



The  Witness:  Then  again  events  occurred  over  there  while  I  was 
in  Ireland.  There  was  a  charge  made  by  Divisional  Commissioner 
Smyth,  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  to  members  of  the  police 
force  in  Listowel,  in  the  County  of  Kerry.  This  charge  was  made 
about  the  fifth  of  July.  It  was  a  statement  he  made,  a  speech  he 
made  to  them  in  their  barracks.  There  were  sixteen  police  in  the 
barracks  at  the  time.  They  published  an  account  of  the  statement 
that  Mr.  Smyth  made  to  them.  They  signed  it  and  it  was  published 
in  some  of  the  Irish  papers  and  English  papers  on  Saturday,  the 
tenth  of  July.1 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  After  these  police  officers  had  resigned? 

A.  After  they  had  resigned.  The  statement  was  made  while  they 
were  official  members  of  the  police  force.  Afterwards  they  made 
it  public.  I  have -the  statement  here.  It  is  brief.  I  am  going  to 
read  it  for  you,  with  your  permission.     The  statement  says: 

Mr.  Smyth,  the  Divisional  Commissioner,  addressed  us  as  fol- 
lows: "Well,  men,  I  have  something  of  interest  to  tell  you,  some- 
thing that  I  am  sure  you  would  not  wish  your  wives  to  hear.  I 
am  going  to  lay  all  my  cards  on  the  table.  I  may  reserve  one 
card  for  myself.  Now,  men,  Sinn  Fein  has  had  all  the  sport  up 
to  the  present,  and  we  are  going  to  have  the  sport  now!  The  police 
have  done  splendid  work,  considering  the  odds  against  them.  The 
police  are  not  sufficiently  strong  to  do  anything  but  hold  their  bar- 
racks. This  is  not  enough,  for  as  long  as  we  remain  on  the  defen- 
sive, so  long  will  Sinn  Fein  have  the  whip  hand.  We  must  take 
the  offensive  and  beat  Sinn  Fein  with  its  own  tactics.  Martial  law 
applying  to  all  Ireland  is  coming  into  operation  shortly.  I  am 
promised  as  many  troops  from  England  as  I  require:  thousands 
are  coming  daily.  I  am  getting  seven  thousand  police  from  Eng- 
land. Now,  men,  what  I  wish  to  explain  to  you  is  that  you  are 
to  strengthen  your  comrades  in  the  outstations.  If  a  police  barrack 
is  burned  or  if  the  barrack  already  occupied  is  not  suitable,  then 
the  best  house  in  the  locality  is  to  be  commandeered,  the  occupants 
thrown  out  in  the  gutter.  Let  them  die  there — -the  more  the  merrier. 
Police  and  military  will  patrol  the  country  roads  at  least  five  nights 
a  week.  They  are  not  to  confine  themselves  to  the  main  roads,  but 
take  across  the  country,  lie  in  ambush,  and  when  civilians  are  seen 
approaching,  shout  'Hands  up!'     Should  the  order  be  not  obeyed, 

1  The  charge  in  question  was  made  on  the  nineteenth  of  June,  but  was 
not  published  until   several   weeks   later.     See   Report,   Appendix   "E." 


shoot  and  shoot  with  effect.  If  the  persons  approaching  carry  their 
hands  in  their  pockets  or  are  in  any  way  suspicious-looking,  shoot 
them  down.  You  may  make  mistakes  occasionally  and  innocent 
persons  may  be  shot,  but  that  cannot  be  helped,  and  you  are  bound 
to  get  the  right  parties  sometimes.  The  more  you  shoot,  the  better 
I  will  like  you;  and  I  assure  you  that  no  policeman  will  get  into 
trouble  for  shooting  any  man.  Hunger  strikers  will  be  allowed  to 
die  in  jail — the  more  the  merrier.  Some  of  them  have  died  already, 
and  a  damn  bad  job  they  were  not  all  allowed  to  die.  As  a  matter 
of  fact,  some  of  them  have  already  been  dealt  with  in  a  manner 
their  friends  will  never  hear  about.  An  emigrant  ship  left  an  Irish 
port  lately  with  lots  of  Sinn  Feiners  on  board.  I  assure  you,  men, 
it  will  never  land.  That  is  nearly  all  I  have  to  say  to  you.  We 
want  your  assistance  in  carrying  out  this  scheme  and  wiping  out 
Sinn  Fein.  Any  man  who  is  not  prepared  to  do  so  is  a  hindrance 
rather  than  a  help  to  us,  and  he  had  much  better  leave  the  job 
at  once." 

This  statement  was  made  by  Commissioner  Smyth  about  the  first 
of  July  in  Listowel,  before  the  members  of  the  R.  I.  C.  Their 
spokesman  stood  out  and  said:  "We  are  Irishmen.  It  is  evident 
that  you  must  be  an  Englishman.  We  will  not  obey  these  orders." 
Smyth  turned  to  the  others  and  said,  "Arrest  this  man ! "  The  others 
refused  and  said,  "If  this  man  is  arrested,  this  room  will  run  red 
with  blood."  This  matter  caused  considerable  comment  even  in 
England.  The  subject  of  conducting  an  investigation  was  broached 
in  the  House  of  Commons.  The  speaker  of  the  House  refused  to 
allow  the  motion  for  an  investigation  to  be  put,  on  the  grounds  that 
it  was  outside  of  their  sphere  and  not  a  matter  of  very  great  impor- 
tance. Smyth  himself  did  not  deny  the  statement  that  had  been 
made.     He  simply  said  that  his  words  had  been  misinterpreted.1 


Another  experience  that  I  wish  to  give  you  is  one  that  I  had  in 
England.  It  pertains  to  the  affairs  in  Ireland.  On  my  way  on  the 
train  from  London  to  Holyhead — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  think  it  pertains  to  this  inquiry? 

A.  Yes,  it  does.  About  the  fifteenth  of  July  I  met  a  young  man 
on  the  train  who  told  me  he  was  an  army  officer,  a  first  lieutenant, 

1  In  consequence  of  this  speech.  Divisional  Commissioner  Smyth  was 
later  shot  and  killed  "by  parties  unknown"  at  the  Cork  County  Club 
July  18,  1920. 


about  to  be  sent  to  take  command  of  his  company  in  Ireland  in  the 
County  of  Roscommon.  He  told  me  he  had  been  over  there  before 
and  was  home  on  a  furlough  for  two  weeks.  He  said,  "I  wish  to 
God  I  never  had  to  go  over  there  again."  I  said,  "Why?"  He 
said,  "Because  it  is  the  most  distasteful  work  I  have  ever  done." 
He  looked  young.  I  asked  him,  "How  old  are  you?"  He  said, 
"I  am  not  quite  twenty-two  yet,  and  only  out  of  the  military  school 
a  short  time."  I  said,  "What  is  the  nature  of  your  duties  in  Ire- 
land?" He  said,  "I  command  a  body  of  about  one  hundred  fifty 
men  in  the  County  of  Roscommon.  I  am  to  look  after  that  part 
of  the  country."  I  said,  "Are  you  given  full  jurisdiction  there?" 
He  said,  "Yes."  I  said,  "How,  for  instance,  would  you  act  in  the 
case  of  a  riot  or  in  case  your  men  were  going  through  the  country 
and  stones  were  thrown  at  them,  or  you  saw  people  who  looked  sus- 
picious?" He  said,  "I  have  the  right  to  order  my  soldiers  to  fire." 
The  reason  I  introduce  this  is  to  show  that  a  young  man  not  yet 
twenty-two  years  of  age  has  the  power  of  life  and  death  in  that  part 
of  the  country. 


In  regard  also  to  the  law  under  which  the  people  of  Ireland,  the 
British  law  under  which  they  are  living  today,  I  wish  to  quote  a 
couple  of  clauses  from  the  Restoration  of  Order  in  Ireland  Act. 
This  order  was  promulgated  and  put  in  force  in  Ireland  on  the 
twenty-first  or  twenty-second  of  August  last. 

"Regulations  2  and  3:  Ordained  that  any  Irish  subject  may  be 
arrested  and  tried  by  court  martial  for  an  act  done  at  any  time  in 
the  past,  which  act  was  not  at  the  time  it  was  done  but  which  is 
now  an  illegal  act." 

"Regulation  3,  Paragraph  6:  Ordained  that  any  Irish  subject 
arrested  may,  on  an  order  made  by  the  competent  naval  or  military 
authority,  be  detained  in  any  of  His  Majesty's  prisons  until  thence 
delivered  by  order  of  the  competent  naval  or  military  authority." 

"Regulation  14,  Paragraph  2:  If  any  person  has  in  his  possession 
any  document  relating  or  purporting  to  relate  to  the  affairs  of  any 
such  association  (these  are  proscribed  associations)  he  shall  be 
guilty  of  an  offense  against  the  regulation.  Where  a  person  is 
charged  with  having  in  his  possession  any  such  document  and  the 
document  is  found  on  the  premises  under  his  occupancy  or  under 
his  control  or  on  which  he  has  resided,  the  document  shall  be  pre- 
sumed to  have  been  in  his  possession  unless  the  contrary  is  true." 

Commonly  known  as  the  Coercion  Act. 


Regulation  16  abolishes  the  coroners'  inquests.  Regulation  4, 
the  fifth  paragraph,  ordains  that  any  Irish  subject  can  be  sentenced 
to  death  for  political  offenses  by   these  courts  martial. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  For  the  sake  of  having  it  appear  in  the 
record,  we  would  like  to  ask  you  to  say  who  invited  you  to  testify. 

A.     Mr.  William  MacDonald,  the  secretary  of  this  Commission. 

Q.  Have  you  come  here  solely  at  the  request  of  this  Com- 
mission ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     So  that  no  Irish  association  has  invited  you? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  The  reason  for  inviting  you  is  that  you  have  recently  been 
to  Ireland  and  know  what  is  happening  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  to  none  of  the  members  of  this  Commission 
until  today? 

A.     No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  So  that  vou  have  not  even  communicated  with  Mr.  Mac- 

A.     No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 


Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  John  F.  Martin,  of  Green  Bay,  Wisconsin. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Martin,  will  you  please  qualify  yourself  profes- 

A.  My  name  is  John  F.  Martin.  My  residence  is  Green  Bay, 
Wisconsin,  and  my  profession  is  an  attorney-at-law. 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen? 

A.     Born  in  Green  Bay,  Wisconsin. 

Q.     Born  and  always  lived  in  Wisconsin? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  have  recently  been  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  return? 

A.     I  sailed  from  Cove  on  the  twenty-third  of  September. 

Q.     When  did  you  land  in  Ireland? 

A.     I  was  in  Ireland  seven  days.     I  might  say  that  I   went  to 


Europe  not  specifically  to  visit  Ireland,  but  as  a  member  of  the 
Commission  of  the  Knights  of  Columbus  to  present  the  statue  of 
La  Fayette  and  incidentally  to  visit  France  and  to  present  to  King 
Albert  and  Cardinal  Mercier  a  medal  from  the  Knights  of  Colum- 
bus, and  to  the  latter  a  check.  I  went  from  the  duties  of  that 
Commission  to  Malignes  and  Brussels,  and  from  there  over  to 

Q.     How  long  have  you  practiced  law? 

A.     About  twenty-five  years. 

Q.     What  offices  have  you  held  in  Wisconsin? 

A.     I  have  never  held  any  office  in  Wisconsin. 

Q.     You  have  always  been  a  plain  practitioner  of  the  law? 

A.     Yes,  very  plain. 

Q.     What  office  have  you  in  the  Knights  of  Columbus? 

A.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Supreme  Council  of  the  Knights  of 

Q.     How  long  were  you  in  Ireland? 

A.  Seven  days.  I  went  into  Dublin  on  the  sixteenth  of  Septem- 
ber. My  observations  in  Dublin  would  probably  be  not  worth 
while.  They  were  similar  to  those  of  Mr.  Morgan.  I  wanted  to 
visit  Limerick,  which  was  the  birthplace  of  my  mother;  but  I  was 
advised  that  there  was  railway  trouble.  I  wished  also  to  visit 
Tipperary,  but  was  informed  that  I  could  do  that  better  by  auto 
than  by  train.  So  I  arranged  to  go  by  auto,  accompanied  by  a 
British  subject,  Mr.  J.  J.  Leary,  of  Saskatoon. 

Q.     You  say  he  was  a  British  subject?     Of  what  nationality? 

A.     He  was  a  Canadian  of  Irish  parentage. 


We  left  our  bags  in  Dublin  and  went  by  auto  over  to  Tipperary, 
and  then  sought  a  conveyance  to  Limerick.  We  had  considerable 
difficulty  in  procuring  a  conveyance  to  Limerick,  but  finally,  after 
very  diligent  search,  we  got  a  man  who  promised  to  take  us  over. 
When  he  came  to  the  hotel  he  had  a  very  dilapidated  Ford  car, 
with  half  the  hood  gone  and  with  one  headlight  that  would  not 
work.  Without  knowing  anything  of  the  experiences  to  encounter, 
we  went  along  to  Limerick  Junction  and  Oola.  We  suddenly  came 
across  a  great  stone  wall  built  across  the  road  at  Pallas.  This 
stone  wall  was  about  six  feet  high  and  three  or  four  feet  thick,  with 
an  opening  in  the  center  just  wide  enough  to  permit  a  car  to  pass 
through.  To  the  right-hand  end  of  it,  it  circled  around  a  house 
built  up  close  to  the  road.     I  might  say  that  many  houses  in  that 


country  are  built  up  close  to  the  road.  It  was  about  a  two-story 
house  with  a  flat  roof.  We  got  within  perhaps  a  hundred  feet  of 
this  stone  wall  when  we  saw  six  or  eight  men  in  uniform  back  of 
the  wall.  Three  of  them  stepped  to  their  rifles,  which  were  resting 
on  the  wall,  and  one  to  a  machine  gun.  One  man  was  parading 
on  the  rather  flat  roof  with  a  rifle,  and  all  four  were  trained  directly 
on  us.  The  men  behind  the  wall  were  aiming  at  us,  and  the  man 
with  the  machine  gun  as  well.  They  yelled  at  us,  accompanied  by 
the  command  to  halt.  I  might  suggest  that  less  would  have  stopped 
us.  After  they  had  us  thus  covered,  three  men  in  uniform  came 
out  to  search  us.  They  did  a  very  thorough  job,  searched  the  car, 
asked  some  questions,  particularly  of  the  driver.  ,  They  wanted 
especially  to  learn  where  we  were  going,  and  if  we  expected  to  come 
back  through  there  that  night.  They  finally  let  us  go  with  the 
statement  that  we  must  get  back  by  nine  o'clock  if  we  expected  to 
get  through  there.  We  decided  we  would  be  back  before  nine 

We  went  over  to  Limerick  and  passed  about  an  hour  driving 
about  Limerick.  Owing  to  the  nine  o'clock  restriction  at  Pallas, 
we  abandoned  my  intention  of  visiting  a  little  town  not  far  from 
Limerick.  On  the  streets  we  observe'd  not  hundreds  but  thousands 
of  men  in  uniform,  it  seemed  to  me.  As  we  were  driving  along, 
suddenly  there  sped  out  in  the  street  in  front  of  our  car  six,  seven, 
or  eight  large  fellows  dressed  in  black  uniforms.  One  whipped  a 
revolver  out  of  his  back  pocket  and  commanded  the  driver  to  halt. 
He  did  not  stop  the  engine,  because  it  was  almost  impossible  to 
start  the  old  engine  after  it  was  once  stopped.  They  insisted,  and 
the  officer  in  charge  of  them  commanded  him  to  stop  the  engine. 
The  officer  became  very  abusive,  and  asked  the  driver  some  questions 
about  his  permit  to  drive  about  in  that  part  of  the  country.  The 
young  man  was  not  the  owner  of  the  car,  but  only  the  driver.  It 
seemed  that  his  permit  was  in  the  name  of  the  owner.  The  official 
spokesman  said,  "Young  man,  you  will  go  along  with  us."  This 
was  a  little  disconcerting  to  us,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  our  baggage 
was  at  Limerick  Junction,  twenty-five  miles  away.  I  ventured  to 
say  something  to  the  officer:  "Perhaps  you  overlooked  the  fact  that 
I  am  an  American  citizen.  I  am  here  under  a  passport" — which  I 
produced  and  showed  to  them — "and  this  young  man  is  under  my 
employ.  We  hired  him  this  afternoon  to  take  us  over  here  and 
bring  us  back  to  Limerick  Junction.  This  man  with  me  is  a  Cana- 
dian citizen.  I  presume  that  he  has  a  right  to  travel  here.  I  am 
going  to  object  to  your  right  to  interfere  with  my  progress.  I  am 
due  back  at  Limerick  Junction  tonight."     He  examined  my  passport 


and  rather  insolently  tossed  it  back  to  me.  I  said,  "I  have  further 
proof" — a  ticket  that  I  bought  at  Dublin  for  Mallow.  He  looked 
that  over  and  finally  he  turned  to  the  driver  of  the  car  and  said: 
"On  account  of  these  men  with  you,  you  may  go  on  this  time,  but 
don't  let  us  find  you  here  again  or  you  will  not  get  through." 

We  hastened  back  to  get  through  Pallas  before  the  curfew  hour. 
Incidentally,  the  lights  did  not  work,  and  we  had  some  tire  trouble. 
We  got  to  Pallas  a  little  late,  but  explained  that  tire  trouble  had 
detained  us,  and  we  were  allowed  to  go  through  without  headlights. 
A  little  later  we  observed  a  lorry  coming  down  the  road  with  great 
large  headlights.  Our  driver  pulled  alongside  the  road.  The  lorry 
stopped  and  searched  us,  but  found  nothing  objectionable.  We 
were  allowed  to  go  on,  and  got  back  to  our  hotel. 


The  next  day  we  went  down  to  Killarney.  We  found  the  largest 
hotel  there — I  think  it  is  the  Southwestern,  the  largest  hotel  there — 
commandeered  by  the  military  and  surrounded  by  a  barbed-wire 
entanglement,  around  which  were  soldiers  and  officers  parading. 

The  next  morning  at  ten  o'clock  we  saw  in  front  of  that  place 
eighty  or  ninety  soldiers,  and  saw  them  march  down  and  make  a 
raid  on  the  Presentation  Convent,  a  place  where  they  manufacture 
a  very  special  brand  of  Irish  lace,  the  excuse  being  that  they  sus- 
pected that  firearms  were  there. 

We  went  from  there  to  Cork,  where  we  saw  a  greater  number  of 
motor  lorries  than  at  any  other  place.  They  were  driving  through 
the  streets  at  a  rapid  rate  of  speed,  sending  the  people  helter-skelter, 
and  promiscuously  bent  on  frightening  them.  They  were  loaded 
as  has  been  described  to  you  before.  The  rear  part  of  the  lorry 
has  a  body,  say,  three  feet  high.  In  this  the  men  were  standing  or 
looking  over  the  top  of  the  body,  all  with  their  rifles  ready.  We 
were  told  that  night  that  two  men  were  shot  because  they  had  failed 
to  comply  with  the  curfew  law,  which  hour  is  ten  o'clock  there. 

We  went  to  Cove,  from  which  we  were  going  to  sail  on  the 
twenty-third.  We  learned  down  there  that  the  town  had  been  sacked 
and  a  reprisal  made  because  of  the  killing  of  a  soldier  at  a  little 
town,  I  think  Midleton,  about  fifteen  miles  outside  of  Cove.  Hav- 
ing the  conditions  described  to  us  by  the  young  lady  in  the  hotel, 
we  walked  down  the  street  to  make  some  observations.  I  personally 
counted,  beginning  at  the  Queen's  Hotel  and  going  up  the  street, 
within  five  blocks  eighty  plate-glass  windows  broken  on  both  sides 


of  the  street.  The  little  round  holes  in  the  broken  windows  looked 
like  bullet  holes,  but  we  were  informed  that  they  were  not;  that 
they  were  made  by  what  they  call  trench  hammers.  The  lady  who 
lived  up  at  the  end  of  where  this  district  began  said  that  late  at  night 
a  band  of  soldiers  came  charging  up  the  street.  The  officer  in 
charge  said,  "Not  a  window  left  from  here  down  to  the  station," 
and  the  work  began. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  They  were  broken  by  mallets? 

A.  Yes;  most  of  them  were  small,  round  holes,  apparently  like 
the  hole  of  a  stone.  They  said  it  was  a  small,  round  hammer  that 
struck  it. 

That  is  all  that  I  think  would  be  of  any  interest  to  you.  I  left 
there  on  the  afternoon  of  the  twenty-third. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  What  did  you  find  among  the  people, 
a  spirit  of  terror? 

A.  Yes,  I  found  that.  But  if  I  may  give  the  results  of  my 
conversations,  there  was  an  absolute  unanimity  of  opinion  among 
the  people  that  they  were  going  to  stick  it  out  until  they  got  the 
right  to  govern  themselves.  I  talked,  going  out  of  Dublin  on  the 
train,  with  a  man  who  appeared  to  be  a  very  distinguished  gentle- 
man, who  told  about  the  raid  that  took  place  at  his  home  about 
a  week  before,  while  he  was  away  at  the  races.  A  dozen  or  more 
men,  all  masked,  came  about  midnight,  searched  his  house  for 
munitions  and  firearms,  and  finally  found  one  sporting  gun.  His 
daughters  were  very  much  aroused  and  excited.  The  next  day  the 
military  came  along  for  the  same  purpose.  I  said,  "I  assumed  that 
when  you  told  about  this  first  raid,  you  were  speaking  about  the 
military?"  He  said,  "Oh,  no,  I  was  speaking  about  the  Sinn 
Feiners,  and  I  was  damn  glad  they  got  there  first,  for  I  would 
rather  have  them  get  it  than  the  military.  They  probably  heard 
the  military  intended  to  raid  my  house  for  arms,  and  so  they  beat 
them  to  it."  He  said,  "My  name  is  Kirk.  I  am  not  a  Catholic. 
You  Americans  think  that  we  are  not  in  agreement  over  here  because 
in  some  places  there  have  been  religious  differences.  But  when  it 
comes  to  politics  we  are  all  Irish,  and  we  believe  in  the  right  of 
Irishmen  to  govern  themselves." 

At  Killarney  we  stopped  at  the  Glede  Hotel.  Mr.  Graham,  a 
Scotchman,  was  the  proprietor.  He  said,  "We  are  all  of  one  thought 
politically,  and  religion  does  not  enter  into  it  at  all." 



Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  did  you  happen  to  become  a  witness 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  got  a  telegram  from  here  signed  William 

Q.     That  was  all? 

A.  Yes.  I  am  a  little  curious  to  know  how  you  knew  that  I 
was  in  Ireland. 

Q.  It  was  through  newspaper  reports.  You  came  solely  at  the 
Commission's  request? 

A.     I  came  at  Mr.  MacDonald's  request;   at  his  request  only. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  much  territory  did  you  cover  in 

A.  I  went  to  Dublin  for  two  days,  and  then  down  to  Limerick, 
about  one  hundred  miles,  and  then  down  by  train  to  Killarney,  and 
over  to  Cork,  and  then  down  to  Cove. 

Q.     Two  or  three  hundred  miles  altogether? 

A.     I  should  think  so,  about  that. 

Q.  These  conditions  you  have  described  are  fairly  typical  in 
those  towns? 

A.  I  think  they  are  much  worse  in  the  north  of  Ireland.  By 
reading  the  newspapers  after  I  got  back  I  find  that  we  are  not 
getting  very  much  information  over  here.  They  are  much  worse 
in  the  north  of  Ireland. 


Q.  Do  you  think  the  people  are  forming  their  own  civil 
processes  there? 

A.  Yes.  A  young  man  of  our  party  was  fortunate  enough  to 
get  into  a  Republican  court,  and  he  found  that  the  people  of  Ireland 
are  submitting  their  questions  to  their  own  courts  and  are  perfectly 
glad  to  do  so. 

Q.     There  is  a  de  facto  political  life  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the 
industrial  conditions  of  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  a  little. 

Dr.  William  MacDonald,  Secretary  of  the  Commission. 


Senator  Walsh:  Don't  you  think  that  a  witness  like  Mr.  Hackett 
could  give  us  more  about  that? 

The  Witness:  The  industrial  life  was  very  prosperous  until  the 
attacks  on  the  creameries  got  in  vogue,  and  that,  of  course,  is  putting 
them  out  of  business. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 


Chairman  Howe:  Reverend  James  H.  Cotter,  of  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     What  is  your  full  name? 

A.     Reverend  Doctor  James  H.  Cotter. 

Q.     Where  are  you  stationed? 

A.     Saint  Laurence  Church,  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     You  are  the  pastor  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  that  town? 

A.  Thirty-one  years,  over  thirty-one  years.  In  addition  to  being 
pastor,  I  would  say  that  I  am  on  the  staff  of  The  Columbiad,  the 
Knights  of  Columbus  organ. 

Q.  That  is  to  say  that  you  are  a  member  of  the  editorial  staff 
of  the  Knights  of  Columbus  official  organ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  a  Catholic  priest? 

A.     Thirty-eight  years. 

Q.  All  of  that  time  your  work  has  been  confined  to  the  State 
of  Ohio? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.     County  Tipperary,  Ireland. 

Q.     How  old  were  you  when  you  came  to  America? 

A.     Fifteen  years. 

Q.     Have  you  recently  visited  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     I  have  been  there  for  eight  weeks  exactly. 

Q.     What  months? 

A.  From  the  twenty-third  of  July  to  the  twenty-third  of  Sep- 

Q.     How  long  since  you  last  visited  Ireland? 

A.     Twenty-three  years. 

Q.     What  was  the  occasion  of  your  visit  to  Ireland  at  this  time? 

A.  I  went  to  visit  Ireland  because  I  was  anxious  to  see  for  my- 
self the  conditions  there. 


Q.     Not  for  the  purpose  of  printing  in  any  newspaper? 

A.  Only  as  a  result.  I  was  for  six  years  the  editor  of  the  Union 
and  Times,  of  Buffalo,  and  I  was  then  for  three  years  editor  of  the 
Columbia,  of  Columbus,  Ohio,  and  then  for  a  while  I  was  on  the 
staff  of  the  Columbiad. 

Q.  So  that  you  were  desirous,  for  personal  reasons  and  also 
for  newspaper  purposes,  of  studying  the  conditions  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  so  that  I  would  know  the  questions  intelligently  and 
could  discuss  them  editorially. 

Q.  Will  you  relate  to  us  your  personal  investigations  of  lawless- 
ness and  military  conditions  in  Ireland? 

A.  When  I  went  to  Ireland  first  I  landed  in  Dublin  on  the 
twenty-third  of  July.  I  was  not  long  in  Ireland  before  I  learned 
that  England's  sole  purpose  was  to  tempt  the  Volunteers  *  into  the 
open  in  order  to  mercilessly  shoot  them  down.  Ireland's  sole  pur- 
pose— it  was  a  surprise  to  me,  knowing  that  they  were  an  enthusi- 
astic and  political  race — was  to  curb  their  passions,  their  indigna- 
tion, and  anger. 


The  first  question  that  I  desired  to  study  was  the  religious  ques- 
tion, naturally,  as  a  sequence  of  my  own  profession.  As  my  mother 
was  a  Protestant,  I  went  to  see  my  niece,  who  was  married  to  an 
Episcopal  rector,  Reverend  William  Stewart,  of  Keenish  Rectory, 
Enniskillen.     That  was  as  far  north  as  I  dared  to  go. 

Q.     How  far  north  is  that? 

A.     It  is  in  Fermanagh,  one  of  the  nine  counties  of  Ulster. 

I  went  to  see  my  niece,  who  is  married  to  this  gentleman,  and  I 
was  very  curious  to  fathom  his  mind,  since  he  lived  in  the  north 
and  differed  from  me  in  religious  principle.  I  found  him  very 
much  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement,  and  disowning 
the  fact  that  there  was  anything  like  a  religious  difference  in  the 
movement.  I  in  his  presence  drew  the  distinction  between  the 
Protestants  of  Ireland  and  the  Orangemen.  I  held  that  the  Protes- 
tants of  Ireland  were  good  and  very  sincere  men,  who  served  their 
God  through  their  fellow  men;  while  the  Orangemen  had  only  a 
creed  of  hatred  begotten  by  the  devil. 

I  also  went  to  see  some  relatives  in  Ballyeagan.  I  found  the 
same   conditions   there.      They    did   not    ask    what   their   neighbor's 

1  The   Irish   Volunteers,   the   nucleus    from   which   the   Irish   Republican 
Army  has  been  formed. 


faith  was  when  it  was  a  question  of  devotion  to  country  and  a  desire 
for  liberty.  And  at  Ballingarry,  where  I  have  some  more  Protes- 
tant relatives.  I  found  the  same  thing  is  true  there. 

I  also  met  some  editors,  or  rather  authors,  since  I  was  an  author 
myself.  I  met  Darrell  Figgis,  a  Protestant  author  in  Ireland.  He 
holds  a  position  in  the  Republican  Government  of  Ireland.  I  also 
met  Erskine  Childers,  whose  book,  "Military  Rule  in  Ireland,"  I 
have  here  and  with  your  permission  will  place  in  evidence. 

Q.     Is  that  recently  published? 

A.  It  is  a  revised  edition  of  "Military  Rule  in  Ireland,"  pub- 
lished not  long  ago. 

Q.     What  is  the  date  of  publication? 

A.     Mr.  MacDonald:  Here  is  the  date,  1920. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  the  author  of  that  a  member  of  the  Re- 
publican Party? 

A.  He  holds  a  state  office  in  the  Republican  Government  of 

Q.     Do  you  happen  to  know  his  religion? 

A.     Protestant.     These  are  all  Protestants. 

Q.  You  are  now  dealing  with  your  experiences  with  Protestant 
people  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes.  As  far  as  I  have  gone  they  are  all  Protestant  people  in 
different  parts  of  Ireland,  in  the  north  and  in  the  south.  Mr.  Figgis 
lives  in  Dublin.  Mrs.  Bryce  entertained  me  for  an  afternoon  in  her 
home  in  Bantry  Bay.  Mrs.  Bryce  is  the  sister-in-law  of  Ambassador 
Bryce,  who  was  in  this  country.  She  was  such  a  radical  Sinn 
Feiner  that  I  have  learned  she  was  once  put  in  jail.  She  was  going 
to  Wales  to  lecture  on  the  labor  question,  and  while  going  she  was 
arrested  and  put  in  jail  for  five  hours.  Then  I  met  Mrs.  Waddell, 
of  Achill,  in  western  Ireland.  She  is  one  who  is  heart  and  head 
with  the  Republican  movement. 

Q.     She  is  a  Protestant  also? 

A.  Yes,  Senator,  I  saw  Protestants  especially  because  I  wanted 
to  get  the  other  side  of  the  question,  to  see  if  there  was  any  truth 
at  all  in  the  assertion  that  it  was  a  religious  question. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  This  Mrs.  Waddell? 

A.  Mrs.  Waddell  is  a  very  wealthy  lady  whose  estates  are  in 
Russia.  She  lives  in  the  west  of  Ireland.  Her  estates  there  are  in 

Then  there  is  Mr.  Biggs,  a  Protestant  gentleman  of  Bantry,  who, 
because  he  put  a  notice  in  the  paper  sympathizing  with  the  move- 
ment and  deprecating  English  propaganda,  particularly  the  brand 
Americans   got,   his   store,   valued   at   thirty   thousand   pounds,   was 


burned  immediately  afterwards — I  think  it  was  the  next  day  or  the 
next  night,  immediately  after  his  declaration  in  the  local  paper. 
Then  his  magnificent  home  was  commandeered  by  the  military 
some  short  time  after  the  burning  of  his  store. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  any  judicial  action  taken  to  determine 
who  burned  and  destroyed  his  store  and  place  of  business? 

A.  It  was  generally  understood,  and  although  no  court  was  ever 
held  on  it,  it  was  understood  that  it  was  the  work  of  the  military 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  that  destruction,  approximately? 

A.     It  was  previous,  Senator,  to  my  going  to  Ireland. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  long  before? 

A.     Something  like  a  week  before. 

Q.     Did  you  see  that  man  himself? 

A.     No,  I  did  not  interview  him. 

Q.     Just  talked  with  him? 

A.  No,  I  did  not  see  him,  but  it  was  very  well  known  there.  It 
was  taken  as  a  maxim  that  it  was  the  work  of  the  military  as  a 
matter  of  revenge. 

Q.     For  his  public  utterances  of  sympathy  with  the  Republic? 

A.     For  his  public  utterances  of  sympathy. 


To  Ulster  I  did  not  go,  but  I  learned  that  the  condition  there 
was  laboriously  artificial — I  mean  as  an  argument  against  the  Re- 
publican form  of  government  for  Ireland.  It  is  a  mixture  of  fanati- 
cism and  the  cry,  "To  hell  with  the  Pope,"  in  order  to  keep  the 
laborers  in  the  linen  factories  of  Belfast  away  from  the  realization 
of  the  hell  from  which  they  themselves  were  suffering.  Some  of 
the  girls  there  are  working  for  a  miserable  pittance  in  water  up 
to  their  ankles  all  day.  It  is  well  known  that  these  linen  factories 
are  the  subjects  of  great  profit.  Among  the  proprietors  are  Sir 
Edward  Carson  and  Bonar  Law.     Regarding  what  I  saw  myself — 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Before  you  take  up  that,  Doctor,  did  you 
learn  from  these  people  with  whom  you  had  interviews  as  to  the 
sentiment  among  their  neighbors  and  parishioners,  among  people 
of  Protestant  faith? 

The  Witness:  Will  you  kindly  repeat  the  question? 

Q.  You  have  told  us  of  the  sentiment  that  these  individuals  have 
produced  to  you.  Did  they  communicate  to  you  the  sentiment 
among  their  Protestant  neighbors  and  parishioners? 


A.  Yes,  they  remarked  that  their  neighbors  did  not  know  what 
the  faith  of  their  other  neighbors  was;  that  they  were  all  for  the 
Republic.  They  were  not  interested  in  the  other  things.  It  was  an 
issue  which  they  met  on  common  ground,  and  did  not  bother  their 
heads  about  inquiring  as  to  the  religious  convictions  of  the  other 
parties  interested. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  any  Protestant  men  or  women,  or  did  you  hear 
of  any,  that  are  out  of  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement? 

A.  Not  one.  As  I  stated,  it  is  a  laboriously  artificial  condition 
that  they  have  a  great  difficulty  to  preserve  in  its  present  artificial 
state  in  the  north. 

Q.  You  indicated  that  that  is  due  to  the  efforts  on  the  part  of 
the  manufacturing  interests  to  divert  their  employees'  attention  from 
organizing  so  as  to  better  their  conditions? 

A.  Yes.  And  that  was  confirmed  by  a  passenger  coming  over, 
a  Protestant  gentleman  who  was  leaving  Belfast  because  of  the 
fanaticism  that  was  guilty  of  such  wild  work  there.  He  was  leaving 
Belfast  forever  and  coming  to  this  country.  He  confirmed  the 
thought  that  I  had  got  elsewhere. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Now  will  you  continue? 


A.  Yes.  I  want  you  to  know,  Senator,  very  particularly  about 
the  murder  of  Mayor  MacCurtain,  of  Cork,  for  the  reason  that  a 
thousand  pounds  reward — oh,  yes,  here  it  is;  this  affair,  the  burn- 
ing of  Mr.  Biggs's  place  of  business  was  on  July  twenty-sixth — 
a  thousand  pounds  reward  was  offered  in  the  American  papers  for 
the  arrest  and  conviction  of  the  Sinn  Feiners  that  murdered  Mayor 
MacCurtain,  of  Cork.  I  was  very  anxious  to  know  how  that  ques- 
tion stood,  because  of  the  hypocrisy  that  cloaked  the  crime.  So  I 
went  to  Cork  and  interviewed  one  of  the  jurors.  I  will  not  mention 
his  name,  for  the  reason  that  I  would  be  fearful  that  something 
might  happen  to  him  as  a  result  of  the  interview.  He  said:  "Dr. 
Cotter,  that  street  was  guarded  by  the  military.  The  converging 
street  was  guarded  by  the  police.  And  in  from  the  band  of  police 
went  eight  policemen  and  murdered  the  mayor  of  Cork" — Mayor 
MacCurtain,  who  preceded  immediately  Mayor  MacSwiney;  as 
afterwards  his  sister-in-law  told  me  in  Brixton  Prison  in  London, 
murdered  him  with  his  babe  in  his  arms.  A  policeman's  button 
was  found  on  the  floor,  but  never  was  the  circumstance  considered 
at  all.     The  verdict  of  the  jury   was  that  Mayor  MacCurtain   was 


murdered  by  Lloyd  George,  by  Field  Marshal  French,  Lord  Lieu- 
tenant of  Ireland;  by  Ian  MacPherson,  by  Swanzy,  the  district  in- 
spector of  police,  and  some  unknown  members  of  the  Royal  Irish 

Q.     Was  that  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury? 

A.     That  was  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury. 

Q.     Formed  under  English  law? 

A.     Yes,  before  they  were  abolished.     They  are  abolished  now. 

Q.  I  suppose  that  the  verdicts  were  so  often  against  the  English 
Government  that  they  thought  it  wise  to  abolish  them? 

A.     I  do  not  know  why,  but  the  fact  is  that  they  were  abolished. 

Again  I  say  that  I  have  a  hesitancy  in  mentioning  names  of  per- 
sons, because  I  believe  it  would  be  productive  of  disaster  to  them. 
Just  as  you  know  of  men  whom  you  have  summoned  and  who  will 
not  get  their  passport,  and  who  are  in  jail;  like  the  guard  of  honor 
of  eight  who  were  sent  over  to  accompany  the  remains  of  Mayor 
MacSwiney  and  are  now  in  jail;  they  never  came  back  from  Eng- 


In  Cork  I  was  shown  by  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  the  sister  of  the 
late  Lord  Mayor,  I  was  shown  by  her  a  bullet  that  flattens  as  it 
strikes.  It  was  fired  and  intended  for  her,  but  went  wide  of  the 
mark.  This  was  a  dum-dum  bullet.  It  was  not  made  in  Ireland. 
There,  instead  of  having  a  munitions  factory,  if  you  carry  a  gun 
you  get  two  years  or  anywhere  around  that. 


The  curfew  is  the  cloak  for  night  work.  In  Cork  first  came  down 
from  the  barracks  armed  lorries,  armed  motor  cars. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  these  yourself? 

A.  Yes.  At  ten  o'clock  or  a  little  before  ten — ten  o'clock  was 
the  hour  for  the  curfew,  but  they  used  to  come  a  little  before — 
these  motor  cars  filled  with  soldiers  with  their  guns  at  the  ready  and 
fixed  bayonets.  They  would  be  accompanied  often  with  tanks  and 

Q.     And  this  happened  every  night? 

A.  Every  night.  And  then  the  night  made  hideous  with  shots 
and  shouts,  making  you  tremble  because  of  the  indifference  of  the 
parties  themselves  and  the  lack  of  responsibility,  as  the  sequel 

A.     Down  Patrick  Street,  the  principal  street  in  Cork. 


Now,  to  give  you  an  instance  of  the  way  they  found  a  pretense 
for  what  they  called  reprisals.  A  reprisal  is  a  word  that  has  an 
English  and  not  a  general  meaning.  It  is  an  elastic  term  not  found 
in  our  dictionary,  but  used  by  England  at  the  present  hour  to  justify 
any  barbarity  that  has  no  connection  whatsoever  outside  of  manu- 
factured reason.  Right  opposite  the  Victoria  Hotel,  on  the  side- 
walk, there  was  a  hand  grenade  thrown — on  the  sidewalk!  The 
soldiery  made  this  a  reason  for  raiding  the  Cork  Examiner's  office, 
directly  opposite  the  Victoria  Hotel,  and  a  shop  called  the  Black 
Thorn  Shop,  where  one  hundred  pounds'  worth  of  stuff  was  taken. 
That  night  the  raid  was  made,  and  they  made  the  hand  grenade 
the  reason  for  that  action.  The  hand  grenade,  however,  came  on 
the  sidewalk.  You  have  to  suppose  either  one  of  two  things:  either 
that  the  man  who  owned  the  house  had  thrown  a  hand  grenade  from 
his  own  house  at  his  own  window,  or  that  a  man  on  the  sidewalk 
threw  it  at  his  toe.  It  evidently  came  from  the  center  of  the  street 
because  of  its  marked  destination.  And  yet  that  was  made  a  reason 
for  raiding  the  newspaper  office  and  the  Black  Thorn  Shop.  I  give 
this  as  an  instance  of  a  manufactured  reason  for  wanton  conduct. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  the  claim  was  made  that  this  hand 
grenade  was  thrown  from  the  window  of  this  establishment  at  a 
soldier  or  at  an  officer? 

A.     It  could  not  have  happened. 

Q.     But  was  that  the  claim  made? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  claim  made. 

Q.     But  you  are  saying  why  the  claim  was  invented? 

A.  Yes;  the  claim  was  that  they  were  justified  in  the  reprisals 
because  the  hand  grenade  was  thrown  at  them.  How,  nobody  could 
figure  out. 

Q.     But  this  happened  while  you  were  there? 

A.  Just  the  day  before  I  came  to  Cork  they  were  raiding  the 
Cork  Examiner  s  office.  When  Mr.  Ryan,  who  owned  the  Black 
Thorn  Shop,  reported  the  theft  of  one  hundred  pounds'  worth  of 
his  property  to  the  general  in  charge  of  the  troops,  he  was  told 
that  his  application  was  not  mannerly.  The  letter  was  pasted  up  in 
the  shop  window,  and  that  was  the  gist  of  it  all. 



From  Cork  I  went  to  Queenstown.  It  was  about  the  end  of  July 
or  the  first  of  August.  I  went  to  the  boat  regatta  that  they  have 
there.  In  the  evening  the  little  boys,  as  part  of  the  play  of  the 
day,  had  a  donkey  race.  They  raced  down  the  street  on  donkeys. 
They  had  to  go  through  a  line  of  soldiers  with  loaded  guns  and 
fixed  bayonets.     I  saw  that  from  the  window  of  the  Rob  Roy  Hotel. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  learn  that  that  was  a  nightly  occur- 
rence for  these  soldiers  with  fixed  bayonets  to  be  on  the  main 

A.  '  They  are  always  on  the  main  thoroughfares  whenever  they 
can  accommodate  them.  For  instance,  in  Limerick  they  were  having 
a  mass  in  one  of  the  churches  at — 

Q.     Did  you  see  that? 

A.     Yes,  I  saw  it. 

Senator  Walsh:  We  only  want  what  you  saw  personally. 

The  Witness:  I  was  on  the  outside.  The  crowd  came  out  of  the 
church  onto  the  street.  While  they  were  saying  mass  the  soldiers 
came  and  stacked  arms  and  fixed  bayonets  and  made  sounds  to 
indicate  to  people  that  they  were  there.  And  then  they  picked  up 
their  arms  and  passed  on.  It  was  really  an  interruption  of  a  re- 
ligious service. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  there  anything  else  in  Queenstown  besides 
the  instance  you  refer  to? 

A.  Nothing,  except  that  when  they  were  having  their  little  dance 
— some  little  girls  had  a  step  dance  on  the  platform  after  the  boat 
race; — the  soldiers  were  massed  on  the  platform  right  near  with  their 
loaded  guns  and  fixed  bayonets. 


In  Limerick  five  times  in  succession  they  raided  at  two  o'clock 
in  the  morning  the  house  of  a  lady  and  her  three  daughters.  The 
last  time  the  Black-and-Tans  came  in  there  perfectly  drunk.  They 
did  not  know  what  they  were  doing.  One  of  them  took  a  bayonet 
and  was  ripping  up  an  oak  floor. 

Q.     From  whom  did  you  get  this  information? 

A.     From  the  parties  themselves. 

Q.     You  visited  the  house? 

A.     Yes,  I  visited  the  house. 

Q.     How  soon  after  these  raids  had  been  made? 

A.     About  a  week  following. 


Q.     What  was  the  pretended  purpose  of  these  raids? 

A.  The  pretended  purpose  was  to  search  for  arms  or  for  persons 
carrying  arms  or  for  those  who  were  on  the  run — that  is,  those  who, 
if  they  were  caught,  would  be  put  in  jail,  and  so  they  sleep  away 
from  their  homes. 

The  curfew  was  put  on  in  Limerick  after  two  drunken  soldiers 
had  been  relieved  of  their  revolvers.  A  whole  street  called  Kerry 
Row,  a  street  where  everybody  was  exceedingly  poor,  was  raided  in 
reprisal.  I  went  into  their  houses  and  saw  the  results  and  sympa- 
thized with  them.  The  windows  were  all  broken  and  everything 
smashed.  The  butts  of  guns  and  bullets  did  not  have  far  to  go  in 
order  to  destroy  everything  those  poor  people  had. 

Q.     What  was  the  occasion  of  this  destruction? 

A.     The  taking  of  two  revolvers  from  drunken  soldiers. 

Q.     This  followed  that  act? 

A.  This  followed  that  act.  I  mention  it  to  show  that  there  is  no 
comparison  between  the  occurrence  of  the  act  and  its  punishment. 
This  whole  street  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  couple  of  boys  who 
took  away  their  revolvers.  Besides  the  houses  which  were  fired 
there,  a  beautiful  window  set  in  a  tower  opposite  the  Dominican 
Church  was  destroyed. 

Q.     By  what  was  it  struck? 

A.     By  the  military. 

Q.     By  what  weapon? 

A.     I  would  suppose  by  hand  grenades. 

In  Galway  I  saw  what  was  to  be  seen.  I  was  in  the  railroad 
station  after  returning  from  the  Islands  of  Aran.  The  boat  was 
very  late.  It  was  nearly  twelve  o'clock.  Suddenly  we  heard  a  sharp 
report.  I  was  with  Father  Kelley,  of  Spiddle,  a  place  near  Galway. 
I  said  to  him,  "These  are  shots."  Three  to  five  shots  were  then 
heard.  Then  a  pause  and  six  or  eight  more  shots.  Then  very 
quickly  a  Black-and-Tan  went  out  on  the  platform  that  leads  to 
the  back  door  of  the  railway  hotel,  and  when  the  people  were 
coming  to  get  the  papers  off  the  train  at  midnight,  he  used  his 
revolver  in  any  way,  shooting  in  any  direction.  He  shot  a  young 
fellow  named  Mulvoy.  I  saw  him  the  next  day.  He  was  shot 
directly  through  the  temple. 

Q.     Where  was  this  young  boy? 

A.  On  the  platform  getting  the  papers  with  the  rest.  They  had 
brought  up  the  papers  giving  the  news  of  Mayor  MacSwiney's  con- 

Q.     The  train  comes  in  at  midnight  and  they  were  trying  to  buy 


A.     Yes.      . 

Q.     Did  you  see  him  the  next  day? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  you  talk  with  him? 

A.     No,  he  was  dead. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  beg  your  pardon.  I  thought  he  was  only 

The  Witness:  A  civilian  jumped  on  the  back  of  the  Black-and- 
Tan  and  tried  to  get  the  revolver  out  of  his  hand.  He  tried  to  twist 
his  hand  so  as  to  shoot  the  man  on  his  back.  While  he  was  trying 
to  do  that  he  wounded  a  couple  of  bystanders. 

Q.     That  is,  after  the  soldier  had  shot  Mulvoy? 

A.  Yes,  someone  jumped  on  the  back  of  the  Black-and-Tan,  and 
while  he  was  trying  to  twist  the  revolver  from  him,  he  wounded  two 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  Mulvoy  was  an  innocent  bystander.  He 
was  not  connected  with  politics?  He  had  not  been  too  patriotic  in 
any  way? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  So  far  as  I  know,  no.  There  virtue  is  re- 
garded as  a  vice.  I  would  say,  Senator,  in  reply  to  your  question, 
that  all  young  men  are  patriotic. 

Q.  So  that  no  matter  in  what  direction  they  shoot,  they  are  apt 
to  shoot  a  patriot? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  After  he  had  wounded  a  couple  of  men,  a  civilian 
shot  him.  An  English  officer  on  the  platform  said  it  was  the  only 
thing  to  do  with  the  scoundrel.  In  every  civilized  land  under  the 
sun,  an  action  like  that  would  be  considered  the  right  thing  to  do. 
But  it  begot  reprisals.  These  reprisals  had  no  connection  with  the 
deed  and  were  entirely  out  of  proportion  to  it,  even  as  punishment, 
and  utterly  unmerited,  because  it  was  a  virtuous  act  to  kill  the 

Q.     Now,  what  were  the  reprisals? 

A.  The  reprisals  were  about  two  hours  afterward — about  two 
o'clock — 

Q.     I  understand  that  you  were  present  and  saw  this  shooting? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Two  hours  afterwards.  Lights  were  put  out  at 
once,  because  they  thought  they  would  come,  and  so  half-way  pre- 
pared for  their  coming.  With  the  lights  out  in  my  room,  I  peeped 
out  under  the  blinds  and  saw  what  appeared  to  be  about  two  hun- 
dred fifty  soldiers  or  police  halted  at  the  front  door  of  the  hotel. 
Immediately  after  the  order  "Halt!"  came  the  word  "Fire!"  So 
they   shot   there   for    several    hours   through   the   street,    terrifying 


everyone.  I  left  my  bed  and  lay  under  the  window — it  was  a  stone 
building — to  escape  a  possible  bullet. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  in  that  position? 

A.     About  an  hour  and  a  half. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  thought  that  was  the  safest  place  from  a  stray 
bullet  through  the  window? 

A.  That  is  the  place  that  is  generally  advised  in  Ireland — under 
the  window. 

Next  day  I  learned  that  after  shooting  up  the  street,  they  went  to 
a  Mr.  Broderick's  house,  locked  an  old  woman  of  sixty-five  or 
seventy  years  of  age — no,  not  locked,  but  shut  her  into  a  little  room 
in  her  own  house,  poured  petrol  into  the  parlor  and  everything 
near,  and  set  fire  to  her  house.     I  went  to  see  the  ruin  the  next  day. 

Q.     What  happened  to  that  fire?     Did  they  burn  the  house  down? 

A.  They  did  not  burn  the  house  down,  because  some  neighbors 
dared  to  come  out  of  their  houses  and  extinguish  the  flames.  But 
the  piano  was  burned,  and  a  trunk  that  belonged  to  a  woman  who 
had  just  come  from  America,  who  has  been  fifty  years  here,  and  it 
burned  her  trunk.  From  Broderick's  they  went  to  a  house  where  a 
man  named  Quirk  was  lodging.  They  took  him  out  of  bed,  did  not 
give  him  any  time  to  dress,  tied  him  to  a  lamp  post,  and  shot  him 
nine  times  below  the  belt,  literally  disemboweling  him.  An  inquest 
was  forbidden  to  be  held.  I  have  forgotten  to  say  that  they  de- 
stroyed the  Galway  Express  office,  smashed  all  the  type,  and  de- 
stroyed the  linotype. 

Q.     That  was  a  newspaper  office? 

A.     Yes,  a  newspaper  office. 

Q.     Did  that  newspaper  have  Republican  sympathies? 

A.     Republican  sympathies?     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  all  happened  in  one  night  after  that  railroad  station 
affair  in  the  town  of  Galway? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  the  next  morning  to  the  Galway  Express 
office.  The  owner  of  the  paper  was  picking  up  pieces  of  broken 
type  off  the  floor.  They  gathered  together  enough  to  print  a  paper 
on  a  sheet  about  the  size  of  that  (indicating  a  sheet  of  business 
letter  size),  and  in  big  block  letters  on  the  top  of  the  sheet  was 
"Keep  Cool,"  which  is  really  the  philosophy  of  the  passiveness  that 
Ireland  is  practicing  right  now.  Mr.  O'Day,  a  solicitor  of  Galway. 
for  the  sake  of  the  good  name  of  the  community,  inaugurated  an 
informal  inquiry  into  the  happenings,  and  his  house  was  bombed — 
or,  rather,  his  office  was  bombed— the  following  night.  And  so  it 
goes,  and  the  story  is  kept  from  the  rest  of  the  world. 



Q.     Do  you  know  the  political  sympathies  of  this  last  party? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  were  they? 

A.  Like  the  sympathies  of  everyone  I  met  in  Ireland,  Protestant 
and  Catholic — Republican. 

Q.     Republican? 

A.     Republican.     It  is  the  only  government. 

Q.     The  only  civil  government? 

A.     Yes,  civil  government. 

Q.  That  is,  you  found  no  vestige  of  British  civil  authority  in 
Ireland  at  all? 

A.  Absolutely  none,  except  this  meaningless  madness  that  is  the 
work  of  government. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  say  you  met  no  one  in  Ireland  that  is 
not  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  form  of  government? 

A.     None  at  all. 

Q.     That  is  literally  true? 

A.     Literally  true. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  you  never  met  anyone  at  all  who  is  not 
sympathetic  with  the  Republican  form  of  government? 

A.     No,  absolutely  none  at  all. 

Q.     You  mean  to  say  that  you  could  not  find  them? 

A.     Yes,  I  could  not  find  them. 


I  asked  them  about  their  courts.  They  said  that  one  court  gave  a 
regular  Solomon's  judgment.  Two  sons  were  disputing  about  a 
legacy.  The  judgment  of  the  court  was  that  the  eldest  should  divide 
the  property  and  the  younger  take  his  choice.  It  was  very  simple, 
but  it  was  right. 


I  was  in  Dublin  when  Mr.  Jack  Lynch  was  killed  in  the  Exchange 

Q.     Do  you  know  the  circumstances  of  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  not  there  to  see  it,  but  I  know  from  every 

Q.     You  investigated  it? 

A.  Yes.  Six  to  eight  police — I  do  not  know  the  exact  number, 
but  it  is   immaterial — or   rather  six  soldiers   came  to  the   door   of 


the  hotel  at  two  o'clock  in  the  morning,  asked  to  see  the  register, 
looked  for  a  name,  and  went  to  room  number  six.  They  left. 
Nobody  heard  any  sound.  And  some  half  hour  or  so  afterwards 
two  policemen  came  and  knocked  at  the  hotel  and  said  to  the  night 
clerk:  '"We  are  going  to  guard  room  number  six,  where  a  man  lies 
dying.  The  military  told  us  to  come  there."  All  the  next  day  they 
stood  guard  at  that  room,  and  did  not  even  admit  the  proprietor 
of  the  hotel  into  that  room.  They  supposed  the  man  was  dying. 
He  was  shot  in  the  throat.  Nobody  heard  the  shot,  because  they 
blanketed  the  revolver.  The  military  held  the  inquest.  The  coroner 
wras  first  notified  not  to  perform  the  functions  of  his  office. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know  what  was  the  pretended  reason 
for  attacking  Lynch? 

A.     He  was  an  officer  in  the  movement. 

Q.     He  was  an  officer  of  the  Irish  Republican  movement? 

A.     \es,  he  was  an  officer. 

Q.      Had  he  committed  any  outlaw   act  that  you  know? 


A.  None  whatever.  The  purpose  of  the  Volunteer  is  to  incul- 
cate three  virtues  in  a  very  practical  way:  the  first,  truth;  the 
second,  sobriety;  and  the  third,  patriotism.  There  is  no  officer  in 
the  Volunteer  army  that  touches  drink. 

Q.  And  I  suppose  that  they  appreciate  that  the  whole  success  of 
their  movement,  if  it  can  be  called  successful,  is  to  proceed  orderly 
and  without  the  commission  of  murder? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  there  is  the  highest  form  of  passive  resistance 
that  has  been  ever  attempted  in  the  world? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

To  that  same  barracks  from  which  the  police  came  to  take 
charge  of  that  room  where  the  man  was  dying,  as  it  was  supposed, 
I  wrent  to  report  to  the  police,  as  I  was  ordered  to  do  on  leaving 
the  ship  at  Liverpool.  The  man  who  was  at  the  desk  had  evidently 
been  imbibing.  The  lines  of  the  face  indicated  it.  He  said  to  me, 
"I  will  give  you  ten  days  to  get  to  Darlington.  If  you  do  not  get 
there  in  ten  days,  report  to  the  police,  for  they  will  be  looking  for 
you."     I  was  going  there  to  see  a  relative. 

Q.     He  knew  you  were  going  there? 

A.     Yes,  I  told  him  I  was  going  to  that  place. 


In  Tuam  there  was  a  magnificent  draper's  place,  the  finest  shop 
in  Tuam,  a  splendid  cut-stone  building  valued  at  forty  thousand 
pounds;  the  contents,  with  the  building  itself,  was  destroyed  by  the 
police.     The  wife  of  the  proprietor — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  it? 

A.     This  is  what  I  did  not  see,  but  got  from  others  who  did  see  it. 

Q.     How  soon  after  the  occurrence  happened? 

A.     About  two  or  three  weeks. 

Q.     This  establishment  was  destroyed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Who  was  the  owner  of  it? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  the  name — something  like  Carey.  It  was 
the  principal  building  in  town. 

Q.     Did  you  see  it? 

A.     Yes,  I  saw  it. 

Q.  And  when  you  arrived  there  a  few  weeks  later  you  investi- 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  heard  about  it,  and  then  when  I  got  there,  went 
and  saw  it  and  investigated. 

At  Tuam  the  wife  of  the  proprietor  escaped  from  the  burning 
building  with  her  child  in  her  arms,  when  she  was  covered  by  a 
loaded  gun  in  the  hands  of  a  policeman  and  told  to  get  back  there. 
She  escaped  over  a  high  wall  in  the  rear  to  a  neighboring  premises. 
As  a  result  of  her  awful  experience,  she  is  insane. 

Q.     Where  is  she  stationed — in  what  institution? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     You  did  not  see  her?     This  is  what  the  neighbors  told  you? 

A.  This  is  what  the  neighbors  told.  But  I  generally  ask  people 
who  are  intelligent  to  get  the  straight  of  it. 

Q.     Did  you  learn  what  had  been  done  to  incur  such  a  thing? 

A.  Absolutely  nothing.  There  were  two  policemen  shot  a  day 
or  two  before. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Up  to  the  date  of  the  burning  of  this 
man's  home,  nothing  had  happened  to  call  forth  a  reprisal  that 
was  known  to  the  general  public? 

A.     Nothing  at  all. 

Q.  Was  this  man  obviously  connected  with  the  Republican 
government  or  movement  in  Ireland? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Will   your   testimony   take   much   longer? 

A.     Very  short,  sir. 


In  that  same  town  a  Mr.  Casey,  who  identified  himself  very 
prominently  in  the  Republican  movement,  told  me  that  in  a  raid 
on  his  house  his  wife  was  made  to  walk  barefoot  over  the  back 
yard  that  was  full  of  glass.  They  extracted  fourteen  pieces  of 
glass  from  her  feet.  She  was  confined  the  week  afterwards  and 
bore  her  first  son. 

Mrs.  Annan  Bryce,  the  lady  whose  name  I  have  already  given, 
held  a  country  dance  in  her  garage,  and  the  next  night  her  garage 
was  burned  down. 

Q.     Is  this  the  sister-in-law  of  Ambassador  James  Bryce? 

A.     A  sister-in-law. 

Q.     Did  she  tell  you  this  herself? 

A.  Yes,  she  told  me  this  herself,  and  wrote  a  letter  giving  the 
details  to  the  papers  of  Glengariff. 

Q.     Have  you  a  copy  of  that  letter? 

A.  I  am  not  sure.  But  I  can  send  it  to  you,  whether  I  have 
it  or  not.     I  saw  it  upon  arriving  in  Glengariff. 

Arthur  Griffith,  the  vice-president  of  the  Republic,  told  me  that 
England  was  planning  a  massacre.  Before  I  left  Ireland  I  found 
that  his  words  were  true.  I  found  that  G.  K.  Chesterton,  the  lead- 
ing scholar  in  London,  in  his  magazine,  The  New  Witness,  exposes 
the  plot  entered  into  by  the  House  of  Commons  after  their  last 
adjournment  prior  to  the  present  session.  Ireland  has  been  gen- 
erally devastated.  Her  railroads  have  been  stopped  by  Sir  Eric 
Geddes,  the  brother  to  the  Ambassador  here.  The  way  they  stop 
them  is  to  send  soldiers  with  loaded  guns  to  the  train;  and  then 
the  train  does  not  start.  The  engineers  will  not  start  them  when 
they  are  used  for  military  purposes.  The  creameries,  you  have 
heard  about  them  being  destroyed.  It  is  a  plot  to  destroy  the 
economic  life  of  the  people. 

There  is  no  use  going  over  about  the  boy  being  shot  going  to 
bring  his  mother  to  church,  and  about  the  Midletown  boys  who 
were  taken  to  the  Cork  jail  and  were  strapped  back  to  back.  The 
officer  in  charge  took  it  into  his  head  to  see  if  one  bullet  would 
kill  the  two  men,  and  shot  them,  the  bullet  going  through  the 
back  of  one   and  through  the  shoulder  of  the   other.1 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Did  you  investigate  this  yourself? 

A.     No;    I    heard   of   it    from   responsible   people. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  we  should  rather  have  things  that,  as  a 
newspaper  man.  you  have  investigated  for  personal  reasons  rather 

The   Buckley  case.     See   affidavit  of   Bartholomew   Bucklev  and   index. 


than  general   comment  about  what  had  happened  here  and  there. 

The  Witness:  In  England  I  found  that  the  English  were  as  much 
deceived  about  conditions  as  the  Americans.  I  found  that  the 
government  dare  not  tell  the  people,  noble  and  humane,  dare  not 
tell  them  the  truth  about  Ireland. 

I  would  like  to  ask  the  Commission  to  read  a  little  extract  from 
the  inscription  by  the  author  of  a  work  written  forty  years  ago, 
by  the  sister  of  Admiral  Fitzgerald,  of  the  English  navy. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  am  afraid  we  would  be  getting  into  a  great 
deal  of  matter  that  would  be  interesting  and  historic,  and  yet 
would  not  pertain  to  the  immediate  inquiry  here.  I  think  we  had 
better  confine  ourselves  to  just  what  is  going  on  in  Ireland  today, 
what  acts  of  lawlessness  are  taking  place  and  how  much  destruc- 
tion of  life  and  property  and  loss  of  blood  there  is,  and  how 
much  and  to  what  extent  humane  treatment  has  been  abolished  or 
done  away  with. 


The  Witness:  I  will  state  just  one  more  thing.  I  wanted  to 
know  something  about  the  hundred  cowardly  murders  of  police. 
They  have  no  such  word  as  police  is  with  us.  They  use  a  different 
dictionary.  I  wanted  to  know  about  the  cowardly  murders.  I 
had  heard  about  these  cowardly  murders  through  the  speeches  of 
Lloyd  George.  The  cowardly  murder  takes  place  in  this  way: 
The  people  in  certain  parts  of  the  country  become  infuriated. 
They  have  no  weapons  of  their  own.  They  attack  a  police  bar- 
racks-, almost  with  their  bare  knuckles.  That  barracks  is  fortified 
and  well  protected  to  keep  anything  like  violent  hands  off.  In 
that  attack  on  the  barracks  the  policemen  are  killed.  So  too  are 
the  civilians  killed.  And  they  attack  armed  lorries  that  have  their 
guns  at  the  ready,  and  there  they  are  killed.  But  instead  of  being 
a  cowardly  act,  the  civilians  that  attack  these  barracks  and  these 
lorries  have  no  arms  at  all  with  which  to  meet  their  purpose. 

Then,  too,  the  police  are  spies.  When  a  camp  of  military  comes 
to  town,  they  point  out  to  this  military  marked  men,  and  these 
men's  houses  are  raided  or  they  are  shot.  And  they  are  treated  as 
spies.  The  people  conceive  of  a  state  of  war  as  existing,  which 
leads  them  to  regard  the  policemen  as  spies  and  give  them  the 
fate  of  spies. 

That  is  about  all. 



Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Doctor,  you  were  summoned  by  this  Com- 
mission and  invited  to  come  here  and  testify? 

A.     I  was  summoned  by  Mr.  MacDonald. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  want  to  have  it  in  the  record  that  you  are  here 
on  the  invitation   of  this  Commission  and  nobody  else. 

Chairman  Howe:  Are  there  any  other  questions? 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  The  inhabitants  of  Ireland  are  not 
allowed  to  have  in   their   possessions   any   firearms? 

A.  They  will  get  two  years  for  having  in  their  possession 

Q.     How  about  finding  firearms  in  their  homes? 

A.     It  is  the  same. 

The  Witness:  Thank  you,  gentlemen,  for  your  courtesy. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  of  the  Commission   will   adjourn 
until   ten  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 
Adjourned  5:20  p.  m. 

1  Under   the   recent   proclamation   of   martial    law    in    Ireland,   the    death 
penalty  may  be  inflicted  for  possession  of  arms  or  ammunition. 


Session  Two 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  La  Fayette,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C,  Friday,  November  19,   1920. 
10:15  a.  m. 


Chairman  Howe:  The  Commission  will  please  come  to  order. 
The  hearings  will  begin  by  the  testimony  of  Mr.  John  Derham,  of 
Balbriggan,  Ireland.     Mr.  Derham. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Mr.  Derham  has  asked  me  to  act  as  his  counsel 
in   bringing   out   his   testimony. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  is  your  name,  please? 

A.     John  Derham. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside? 

A.     Balbriggan,   County   Dublin,   Province  Leinster. 

Q.     How  far  is  Balbriggan  situated  from  the  city  of  Dublin? 

A.     Twenty  miles  north. 

Q.  What  communication  is  there  between  Balbriggan  and  the 
city  of  Dublin? 

A.  The  Northern  Railroad  and  a  main  road  between  Belfast 
and  Dublin. 


Q.  I   wish  you  would  describe  to  the  Commission  the  sort  of 

town  Balbriggan   is,    industrial    or    agricultural? 

A.  Industrial. 

Q.  What  are  the  industries? 

A.  Hosiery,  Balbriggan  hosiery. 

Q.  There  are  two  main  factories  there? 

A.  Two,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  size  of  them? 

A.  The  largest  factory  employs  about  three  hundred  or  two 
hundred  and  fifty  in  the  factory. 

Q.  The  smaller  one? 

A.  The  smaller  one,  one  hundred  twenty. 

Q.  One  was  burned,  I  believe? 

A.  That  was  the  smaller  one. 



Q.     That  had  one  hundred  twenty  employees? 

A.     In  the  factory. 

Q.  Were  there  others  in  the  town  that  worked  for  the  factory, 
and  in  what  way  was  that  done? 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    What  is  his  official  position? 

A.     Town  commissioner. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    When  were  you  elected? 

A.     The  fifteenth  of  January. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    I  believe  you  also  have  a  son? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  the  chairman  of  it. 

Q.     He  is  here? 

A.     No,  he  is  in  jail. 

Q.     He  was  in  jail  at  the  time  you  came? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  in  jail  at  Mountjoy  prison. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     For  what  offence? 

A.  For  riding  a  bicycle  at  night.  Nothing  found  on  him.  No 
charge.  He  had  to  go  on  hunger  strike  for  three  weeks  to  get  the 


Q.  Tell  us  a  little  more  about  the  election  on  the  fifteenth. 
What  parties  were  candidates? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Just  describe  that.  The  election  was  of  what 

A.     The  fifteenth  of  January. 

Q.     How  many  parties  had  candidates? 

A.  Republican,  Nationalists  or  Redmondites,  and  two  Unionists 
and  one  representing  the  Soldiers"  and  Sailors'  Federation. 

Q.     Any  Labor  Party  running? 

A.     Two  Labor. 

Q.     What  was  the  result  of  the  election? 

A.  The  result  of  the  election  was  that  Labor  and  the  Republi- 
cans, who  are  the  same,  five;  two  Unionists,  two  Nationalists,  and 
the  Soldiers  and  Sailors,  none. 

Q.     Your  town  commission  consists  of  how  many  members? 

A.     Nine. 

Q.     Did  you  perfect  your  election  before  your  son  was  arrested? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  he  was  not  arrested  until  June. 

Q.     What  was  your  son's  name? 

A.     James. 

Q.  Was  it  a  full  and  free  election,  participated  in  by  the  men 
and  women  of  Balbrigaan? 



Yes,  all  the  people  of  the  town. 

Q.     Was  there  any  disturbance? 

A.     Not  the  slightest.     There  was  a  very  full  vote. 

Q.     How  many  votes  were  cast? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     How  many  members  of  the  council  were  elected? 

A.     Nine. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  members  elected  were  sympathizers  with 
the  Republican  movement? 

A.     Five  Republicans. 

Q.     Were  any  other  of  the  men  sympathizers? 

A.     The  other  four  were  not. 

Q.     Which  party  received  the  highest  vote? 

A.     The  Nationalists. 

Q.  Which  party  came  in  as  members  of  the  council  through 
minority  representation?  That  is,  there  was  some  one  party  which 
got  the  highest  vote,  and  the  others — the  minority  representation 
was  given  to  the  others. 

A.  The  highest  vote  was  got  by  the  Nationalists.  The  next  was 
got  by  a  Labor  and  one  of  the  Unionists. 

Q.     And  the  Republicans  last? 

A.  No,  my  son  came  next,  the  Republican.  Then  one,  a  Labor 
man,  and  another  Republican  after  him. 

Q.  As  the  council  was  finally  made  up,  the  sympathizers  with 
the  Republican  movement  were  five  out  of  nine;  but,  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  the  highest  vote  was  given  to  other  than  Republican  candidates? 

A.  Yes,  you  can  explain  that  by  the  Unionist  and  Nationalist 
members.  The  Nationalist  member  was  a  very  old  member  there, 
for  nine  or  ten  years. 

Q.  Then  there  was  not  so  much  of  an  issue  as  to  sympathies 
with  the  Irish  Republic  as  with  local  conditions? 

A.  The  Unionists  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  that,  because  the 
Unionist  candidates  were  members  of  the  large  factory. 

Q.     Was  it  a  victory  for  the  Republicans,  then? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Your  town  was  a  Nationalist  stronghold? 

A.  A  Nationalist  stronghold.  But  it  had  not  been  tested  for 
three  years. 

Q.  You  say  that  factory  that  was  burned  gave  employment  to 
one  hundred  and  twenty,  and  gave  out  work  to  others  to  do  at  home. 
How  many? 


A.     Between  three  and  four  hundred. 

Q.  How  many  did  the  largest  factory  have  that  did  their  work 
at  home? 

A.     Between  five  and  six  hundred. 

Q.     The  backbone  of  the  town  was  the  hosiery  industry? 

A.     Yes,  it  extended  to  Skerries  and  Rush. 

Q.      It  went  to  villages  around  in  the  neighborhood? 

A.  Certainly.  There  were  not  people  enough  in  our  town  to 
do  it. 

Q.     Was  there  any  work  done  in  Dublin? 

A.     Yes,  the  big  factory  had  some  work  done  in  Dublin. 

Q.     Was  there  any  other  industry? 

A.     Yes,  linen. 

Q.     What  was  the  size  of  that? 

A.  Fortv  or  fifty  working  on  linen  ticking,  tablecloths,  sheets, 
and  the  like. 

Q.  Has  Balbriggan  any  other  resources?  Is  it  anything  of  a 
mountain  town? 

A.  No.  There  is  the  sea  on  one  side.  We  are  not  far  from 
Drogheda.  Then  there  is  the  national  fishing  fleet  motor  boats  in 

Q.     You  are  the  proprietor  of  a  licensed  public  house? 

A.     Yes,  for  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  Balbriggan? 

A.     For  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     You  are  a  married  man? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  many  in  the  family? 

A.     Eight. 

Q.     Can  you  give  their  names? 

A.  Yes.  Mary,  James,  Elizabeth,  Michael,  Kathleen,  John, 
Morris,  and  Louis. 

Q.     Did  these  children  all  live  at  home  with  you? 

A.     Yes. 


Q.  What  sort  of  a  barracks,  if  any,  is  there  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  A  large  house,  an  old  house. 

Q.  Was  there  a  police  barracks  in  Balbriggan  prior  to  this  time? 

A.  Always  in  Balbriggan. 

Q.  How  large  a  one  was  it? 


A.     The  house  was  fairly  large. 

Q.  How  many  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  ordi- 
narily were  there? 

A.     Ten  to  thirteen. 

Q.  After  the  war  was  there  any  military  establishment  close  to 

A.  During  the  latter  end  of  the  war  there  was  an  aerodrome 
built  for  flying  at  Gormanstown,  three  miles  further  north,  a  very 
large  one. 

Q.     Subsequently  what  has  that  been  used  for? 

A.  Turned  into  a  training  quarters  for  Black-and-Tans.  There 
is  supposed  to  be  fifteen  to  twenty  hundred  of  them.  We  cannot 
tell.     They  come  by  rail  and  motor  lorries. 

Q.     When  did  they  begin  to  use  the  aerodrome  for  that  purpose? 

A.     I  should  say  about  July  when  they  came  first. 

Q.     The  population  of  Balbriggan  is? 

A.     Twenty-five  hundred. 


Q.  How  did  you  find  the  population  was  as  to  Catholics  and 

A.  Oh,  the  population  is  Catholic.  We  have,  I  suppose,  sixty 
or  seventy  Protestants. 

Q.     Are  there  two  churches  there? 

A.     There  are,  the  Protestant  and  the  Catholic  Church. 

Q.     Who  is  the  pastor  of  the  Protestant  Church? 

A.     The  Reverend  William  Jamison. 

Q.     How  long  has  he  been  there? 

A.     I  should  say  about  a  year. 

Q.  Has  there  been  harmony  or  not  between  the  Catholics  and 
Protestants  in  Balbriggan?  # 

A.     Harmony. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  differences  there  between  them,  caused 
by  any  differences  in  belief  on  the  part  of  the  inhabitants? 

A.     Not  the  slightest. 

Q.     Do  they  cooperate  and  help  each  other? 

A.  Yes,  they  always  cooperate.  If  there  is  anything  for  the 
Chapel,  they  all  help. 

Q.     How  is  that? 

A.  The  Catholics  are  in  the  best  economic  position  to  do  so,  and 
they  extend  help  cheerfully. 



Q.     Upon  what  night  was  there  violence  in   Balbriggan? 

A.     The  twentieth  of  September. 

Q.     Was  there  a  Blaek-and-Tan  killed  in   Balbriggan? 

A.     One  killed  and  another  wounded. 

Q.     Were  you  present  at  the  time? 

A.     I  was  not  present  at  the  time  of  the  shooting. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  proceed  and  give  the  details  of  what  oc- 
curred at  your  own  home  and  at  the  Smith  public  house.  There  is 
a  public  house  there  kept  by  a  woman  named  Mrs.  Smith? 

A.     Yes,  Mrs.  Smith  has  a  house  known  as  the  New  Bar. 

Q.  Please  state  to  the  Commission  what  you  learned  the  follow- 
ing morning  about  what  occurred  in  that  place. 

A.  No,  that  night.  On  the  night  of  the  twentieth  of  September 
I  was  in  my  own  bar.  My  son,  John,  came  in  about  half  nine  and 
told  me  there  was  a  row  in  the  New  Bar  with  the  Black-and-Tans, 
and  that  two  of  them  were  shot. 

Q.     Did  you  get  any  other  details  at  that  time? 

A.     Nothing  further  at  that  time. 

Q.     Please  tell  what  you  finally  learned  about  this  occurrence? 

A.     About  how  it  did  take  place? 

Q.     Yes,  how  it  took  place. 

A.  District  Inspector  Burke  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
came  down  to  see  his  brother,  a  sergeant  in  the  R.  I.  C.  in  Bal- 

Q.     Where  did  Burke  live? 

A.     In  the  barracks  at  Balbriggan. 

Q.     That  is,  the  sergeant? 

A.     Yes,  the  sergeant  did.     The  brother  came  from  Dublin. 

Q.     What  had  he  been  before? 

A.     An  inspector. 

Q.     He  had  been  promoted? 

A.  Yes,  on  that  day  or  the  day  previous.  He  came  down  to  cele- 
brate it  with  a  few  friends,  There  were  two  motor  cars  or  taxis 
came  down  from  Dublin. 

Q.     Who  were  in  the  taxis? 

A.  Black-and-Tans.  They  stopped  at  Smith's  and  were  taking 
some  drink  there.  The  bar  maid  refused  to  give  them  more,  and 
they  went  behind  the  bar  to  take  it.  She  then  sent  for  the  R.  I.  C. 
They  came  up,  looked  in  at  the  door,  and  left  when  they  saw  who 
was  inside. 


Q.     Who  was  inside? 

A.     The  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  At  that  time,  according  to  your  information  received  there  the 
next  morning,  was  there  anyone  in  there  except  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     Not  that  I  heard. 

Q.     There  had  been  civilians  in  there,  but  they  had  left? 

A.  They  left  when  this  excitement  began  about  taking  the  drink. 
The  police  look.ed  in  and  left.  It  was  not  a  hundred  yards  from 
there  where  the  shooting  took  place. 

Q.     The  Black-and-Tans  came  out? 

A.     Yes,  through  the  Smith  door  of  the  street. 

Q.     What  became  of  the  taxicabs? 

A.     One  taxicab  immediately  left  for  Dublin. 

Q.     Did  you  hear  of  any  other  details? 

A.     That  was  practically  all. 

Q.     Was  there  ever  any  military  investigation? 

A.     No,  no  other  than  the  military  inquest  made  further  about  it. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  begin  now,  Mr.  Derham,  with  your  own 
experiences,  what  you  heard  and  saw. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  know  who. shot  these  Black-and- 

A.  No,  there  was  just  a  bit  of  a  row  there.  They  had  been 
drinking  and  were  a  bit  excited. 

Q.  Was  there  a  row  between  themselves,  or  with  citizens  of  Bal- 
briggan?     Or  did  citizens  waylay  them  and  shoot  them  outside? 

A.  No,  the  shooting  took  place  from  the  inside  at  some  of  the 
Black-and-Tans  already  gone  out. 

Q.     Who  shot  them? 

A,     Nobody  knows. 

Q.     The  bar  maid  was  inside? 

A.     She  was  inside. 

Q.     Has  not  somebody  made  an  inquiry  of  her? 

A.  She  says  she  knows  nothing  about  it.  She  was  very  excited 
about  these  people  coming  behind  the  bar. 

Q.     Did  any  civilians  get  inside  and  threaten  them  with  revolvers? 

A.     Not  that  is  known. 

Q.     It  could  have  happened  by  a  skirmish  among  themselves? 

A.     It  could. 

Q.  Or  it  could  have  happened  by  some  citizens  of  the  town 
shooting  these  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     It  could. 


Q.  Or  it  could  have  happened  from  inside  as  these  men   were 

joing  out? 

A.  It  could. 

Q.  Who  were  killed? 

A.  These  two  brothers. 

Q.  Was  there  any  inquiry? 

A.  There  was. 

Q.  Who  conducted  it? 

A.  The  military. 

Q.  What  was  the  verdict? 

A.  Shot  by  persons  unknown. 

Q.  Was  there  any  investigation  by  civil  authorities? 

A.  Oh,  no.     That  has  been  done  away  with. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been  done  away  with? 

A.  Four  or  five  months. 

Q.  In  what  condition  were  these  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  They  were  supposed  to  have  had  too  much  liquor. 

Q.  Does  the  bar  maid  claim  they  were  drunk? 

A.  She  claims  they  had  too  much. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  in  there? 

A.  Eight  or  nine  of  them. 

Q.  That  is  the  whole  story  about  that  episode? 

A.  That  is  all  as  far  as  that  is  concerned. 

Q.  The  bar  maid  did  not  know  them? 

A.  No.     She  was  not  long  there  in  the  employ  of  that  place. 

Q.  Do   any   of   those    Black-and-Tans   claim   that    civilians   shot 



A.  They  do. 

Q.  They  all  claim  that,  1  suppose? 

A.  They  do. 

Q.  Do  they  say  where  these  civilians  came  from? 

A.  There  is  a  back  door. 

Q.  Who  runs  this  place? 

A.  Mrs.  Smith. 

Q.  Has  she  any  sons? 

A.  No,  only  daughters.     The  men  folks  are  dead. 

Q.  Then  there  are  no  men  working  or  living  on  the  premises? 

A.  No.     Only  women. 

Q.  Has  she  any  assistants? 

A.  A  couple  of  bar  maids. 

Q.  After  the  police  officers  looked  into  the  front  door,  did  thev 


A.     Yes,  they  went  away.     There  was  no  disturbance. 

Q.     Does  the  bar  maid  claim   that  these  men  took  liquor  from 
behind  the  counter? 

A.     Yes,  they  did  take  it. 

Q.     What  were  they  drinking? 

A.     Bass,  I  suppose — the  usual  drink  over  there. 

Q.     But  about  the  Black-and-Tans'  claim  that  some  civilians  shot 
at  them  from  behind  the  door? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  the  excuse. 

Q.     You  do  not  care  to  state  from  your  inquiries  as  to  what  ex- 
tent these  Black-and-Tans  were  under  the  influence  of  liquor? 

A.     They  had  too  much  taken.     I  could  not  find  out  just  how 

Q.     There  was  a  celebration  going  on  there  on   account  of  the 
elevation  of  this  inspector? 

A.     Yes,  certainly. 

Q.     Were  any  of  these  Black-and-Tans  from  Dublin? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  all  from  Dublin  except  the  brother. 

Q.     They  got  the  brother  who  was  a  sergeant? 

A.     They  got  the  brother  of  the  inspector,  who  was  a  sergeant, 
from  the  barracks,  and  went  up  to  the  house  for  refreshments. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  in  there? 

A.     About  an  hour. 

Q.     Had  they  taken  drink  before  they  came  in  there? 

A.     I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  was  the  circumstance  of  the  other 

A.     Immediately  after  the  shooting  one  of  them  disappeared. 

Q.     Did  any  Black-and-Tans  get  into  the  taxicab? 

A.     I  could  not  find  out  about  that.     It  is  supposed  they  did. 

Q.     What  became  of  the  wounded  men? 

A.     He   that   died   was   taken   out,   and   the   wounded   man    was 
brought  to  the  police  barracks. 

Q.     You  may  proceed  and  recount  the  instances  that  occurred 
after  that. 

A.     My  own? 

Q.     Yes,  your  own. 

A.     I  need  not  tell  about  what  my  son  said. 

Q.     Mr.  Walsh:    No,  you  told   about   that.      Did   anything   else 
take  place  in  your  own  bar? 

A.     No,  I  immediately  ordered  the  porter  to  put  up  the  shutters. 
I  asked  the  men  on  the  premises  to  leave,  that  I  was  going  to  shut 


the  shop.  So  they  drank  up  and  left.  I  had  the  shop  shut  at  quar- 
ter to  ten  or  twenty  minutes  of.  I  then  went  inside  to  the  sitting 
room  with  my  family.  We  remained  there  until  half  after  ten. 
Then  my  son,  Mike,  came  in. 

Q.     How  old  is  Mike? 

A.     Just  twenty.     At  half  past  ten  he  came  in  and  went  to  bed. 

Q.  I  think  it  might  be  well  to  describe  the  location  of  the  rooms 
in  your  house.  How  many  rooms  and  where  is  the  bar  there  located 
with  reference  to  the  living  part  of  the  house? 

A.  The  bar,  of  course,  is  on  the  ground  floor.  The  bar  is  on 
Clanard  Street  on  the  Square. 

Q.     How  large  a  room  is  the  bar  room? 

A.     About  thirty-six  feet  in  length  and  about  fifteen  across. 

Q.     Describe  your  house  there. 

A.  At  the  back  of  the  bar  is  the  two  sitting  rooms,  and  the 
kitchen  at  the  back. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Are  those  for  private  use? 

A.  One  of  them  is  for  the  family,  for  private  use,  and  the  other 
is  for  the  bar. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    That  is  all  that  is  on  the  first  floor? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Now  describe  the  upstairs. 

A.  There  are  seven  rooms  upstairs,  six  bedrooms  and  another 

Q.     Of  what  material  is  your  house  built? 

A.     Of  stone. 

Q.     Two  stories? 

A.     Yes,  two  stories. 


Q.     You  were  saying  that  Mike  came  in  and  went  to  bed? 

A.  Yes.  And  the  rest  of  the  family  and  my  wife  went  to  bed  at 
eleven.  I  retired  about  quarter  past  eleven.  When  I  got  into  my 
bedroom  I  saw  and  heard  the  motor  lorries,  four  of  them,  come  in 
full  of  Black-and-Tans.  I  remained  then  to  see  what  they  were 
going  to  do. 

Q.     You  could  look  out  on  the  street  from  your  bedroom  window? 

A.  Yes,  the  barracks  is  about  fifty  yards  from  my  place,  and  I 
knew  that  they  were  going  to  stop  there.  After  they  stopped  I  saw 
from  ten  to  twelve  Black-and-Tans  proceed  down  Drogheda  Street. 
I  waited  then  to  see  what  was  going  to  happen  with  these  Black-and- 


Tans  for  some  ten  minutes  or  so.  It  might  have  been  half  past 
eleven.  The  first  I  heard  was  glass  breaking  up  the  street.  I  told 
my  wife,  "There  is  going  to  be  a  raid  on,"  because  I  heard  the 
glass.  Then  I  heard  some  shouting  and  more  glass.  I  went  inside 
and  called  the  daughters  and  told  them  to  go  into  the  back  room, 
not  to  light  any  lights,  and  bring  their  clothes  with  them.  I  then 
went  back  into  the  boys'  room  and  called  my  three  sons  and  told 
them  to  get  up  and  dress  and  use  no  light.  My  wife  did  the  same. 
They  remained  in  the  back  room  in  the  dark,  for  I  thought  there 
would  be  shooting.  You  could  hear  them  screeching  and  roaring, 
and  their  voices  got  worse,  and  I  heard  some  shots. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    The  voices  of  the  people  in  the  village? 

A.     No,  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.     What  were  they  saying? 


A.  We  could  not  tell  you  that.  They  were  yelling  down  the 
street.  What,  I  could  not  tell.  I  remained  in  the  room  for  three 
minutes  or  so.  We  heard  the  yells  coming  closer  to  our  place.  They 
started  in  breaking  in  the  shutters  and  windows. 

Q.     What,  your  house? 

A.  Yes.  The  yelling  was  something  fearful.  It  took  them  three 
or  four  minutes  to  break  into  the  front.  Then  they  started  breaking 
up  the  shop  and  the  two  rooms  below  stairs.  Then  the  excitement 
was  so  bad  in  the  room  that  I  got  a  candle. 

Q.     The  excitement  among  your  own  family? 

A.  Yes,  my  wife  and  one  of  the  daughters.  I  heard  them  com- 
ing upstairs  then  and  break  open  the  parlor  door.  Immediately  I 
heard,  "Hands  up  or  I  will  shoot."  So  I  put  my  head  out  through 
the  door  and  said,  "Come  this  way,  for  I  have  nothing." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  were  there  any  fire- 
arms or  weapons  in  your  house? 

A.  Not  a  thing.  Not  a  thing.  He  then  said,  "Come  out  or  I 
will  shoot,"  so  I  looked  out,  and  he  put  the  rifle  up  to  his  shoulder. 
I  ducked  back  and  told  him  to  come  this  way,  for  I  have  nothing. 

Q.     In  what  position  did  he  put  the  rifle? 

A.     Like  this  (indicating  raised  position  ready  to  fire). 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    To  your  body? 

A.  Like  this  (again  indicating  position  ready  to  fire).  I  said, 
"Come  this  way  for  I  have  nothing."  Then  ten  or  twelve  of  them 
advanced  up  to  the  front  room.     I  said,  "Spare  the  children."     And 


he  said,  "This  is  the  man.  Take  him."  And  my  wife  said,  "Where 
he  goes,  I  go,"  and  she  caught  me.  Then  I  was  taken  around  to 
look  at  the  family,  and  I  got  a  blow  in  the  jaw  from  a  man's  fist — 
I  did  not  see  the  man — and  pushed  down  the  passageway.  They 
stopped  there  for  about  a  minute,  perhaps,  until  more  Black-and- 
Tans  came  up  the  stairs.  I  was  then  taken  downstairs.  There  was 
none  of  our  family  fully  dressed.  The  wife  had  no  stockings  on; 
the  children  had  no  hats  or  boots — shoes;  I  had  no  hat  myself  or 
shoes.  I  was  taken  downstairs  and  was  going  through  the  hall  door 
when  the  policeman  turned  to  me  and  said:  "No,  you  are  going  out 
the  way  we  came  in,"  and  he  brought  me  out  through  the  shop. 
When  going  that  way  I  saw  that  the  two  rooms  were  packed  with 
Black-and-Tans  breaking  in  there. 


Q.     About  how  many  would  you  say  there  were  down  there? 

A.  There  were  at  least  seventy  on  the  premises  before  I  got 
through.     Seventy  at  least. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Were  they  drinking  any  of  your 

A.  I  do  not  think  so.  But  they  took  a  bird  I  had  there,  a  finch, 
took  it  out  of  the  cage  and  on. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  was  the  condition  of  your  bar  room 
when  you  got  downstairs? 

A.  Everything  was  completely  smashed.  The  glass  was  about 
a  foot  high  back  of  the  bar. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Did  they  destroy  any  of  your 

A.     They  did. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Did  they  destroy  all  of  your  stock? 

A.     There  was  much  left. 

Q.     Did  they  destroy  the  shop? 

A.     Yes,  counter  and  shades  and  so  forth  were  smashed. 

Q.     Did  they  take  anything? 

A.  They  did  not  take  what  they  could  have.  Some  dozen  or  so 
of  Three  Star  brandy  they  left,  and  some  other  liquors. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  you  did  not  have  time  to  investi- 

A.     No,  sir.     I  was  taken  to  the  shop  door.     Immediately  I  got 


to  the  shop  door  I  was  caught  by  the  neck  and  pulled  into  the  path. 
I  then  got  the  blow  of  a  rifle  in  the  side  of  the  head.  I  was  taken 
across  the  street  and  struck  four  times  and  asked,  "Where  is  your 
bloody  son?"     A  voice  said,  "Take  him  to  the  Green." 

Q.     What  is  the  Green? 

A.  The  Fair  Green.  I  thought  he  meant  to  take  me  there  for 
shooting  purposes.  That  is  what  I  thought  at  that  time.  Going 
across  the  street  I  was  stopped  then  and  searched  by  a  Black-and- 
Tan.  He  did  not  take  anything  from  me.  He  made  me  put  my 
hands  over  my  head,  high  up,  for  about  a  minute.  He  then  said, 
"Sit  down."  I  was  going  over  to  a  door  step  to  sit  down.  He  said, 
"Come  back  here  and  sit  down  on  the  curb,  you  dog."  I  sat  down 
on  the  curb  stone  and  there  were  seven  rifles  pointed  at  me.  I  re- 
mained there  for  about  five  minutes  more.  A  man  then  asked  me 
my  name,  and  I  told  him.  I  then  shifted  my  position  a  minute,  and 
he  said,  "Sit  down  there,  you  dog." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  All  of  this  time  there  were  seven  rifles 
pointed  at  you? 

A.     Yes,  all  that  time  there  was  seven  rifles  pointed  at  me. 

I  was  being  led  to  the  barracks  when  a  big  man  pointed  a  re- 
volver at  my  ear  and  said,  "I  will  blow  your  bloody  brains  out." 

Q.     Did  he  put  it  to  your  ear? 

A.     Yes,  right  at  the  side  of  my  ear. 

Q.     All  this  time  did  you  make  any  protest? 

A.     No ;  I  never  spoke. 

Q.     Never  spoke? 

A.  Never  spoke.  He  told  me  to  get  in  on  the  path.  I  was  on 
the  road.  And  immediately  I  was  struck  on  the  shoulder  and  tum- 
bled down  with  the  butt  of  a  rifle.  I  got  to  the  barracks  then.  It 
was  about  thirty  yards  away  where  all  this  was  happening.  He 
said,  "Put  this  man  in  the  day  room."  The  man  guarding  the  door 
said,  "He  cannot  go  in  there.  There  is  a  man  dying  in  there."  I 
was  told  to  stop  on  the  porch  of  the  barracks  and  remained  there 
for  about  five  minutes  or  eight  or  something  like  that.  The  man 
then  said,  "Take  this  man  to  the  hotel."  So  I  was  brought  to  the 
hotel.  Lawless — the  second  son  of  Mr.  Lawless — was  there  with  a 
child  three  years  old  with  bronchitis;  and  another  little  child  about 

Q.     Were  these  Lawless  children  driven  out  of  their  home? 
A.     Yes,  they  were  driven  out  with  their  father.     He  was  in  his 
bare  feet,  and  the  children  were  in  their  night  clothes. 


Q.     What  sort  of  weather  was  it? 

A.  The  weather  was  very  cold.  It  was  frosty,  too.  The  grass 
was  wet.     There  was  no  rain,  though. 

I  got  into  the  hotel.  When  I  got  there,  I  got  the  remainder  of 
my  family  with  me,  with  the  exception  of  Mike.  I  stopped  there 
until  half  past  six  in  the  morning. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  During  the  night  what  could  you  see  from 
the  hotel  as  to  what  was  going  on? 

A.  I  could  see  the  glare  of  the  fires.  I  could  see  that  two  houses 
were  gone  altogether. 

Q.     Could  you  see  your  own  house  from  there? 

A.  I  could.  Then  there  was  yelling  and  burning  and  shooting 
all  the  night. 

Q.  At  any  time  during  the  night  did  you  ascertain  that  anyone 
had  been  killed? 

A.  Not  until  half  past  six  in  the  morning.  The  Black-and-Tans 
were  stopping  and  yelling  outside  the  hotel  all  the  time.  There  was 
nearly  a  collapse  in  my  family  whenever  they  stopped. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  You  might  detail  at  this  time  what  you  saw 
and  heard  about  Mr.  Lawless  and  Mr.  Gibbons. 

A.     About  half  past  six  I  came  out  of  the  hotel. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Was  the  hotel  turned  into  police  banacks? 

A.     I  thought  so  all  night,  but  I  came  out  at  half  past  six. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  come  out  at  half  past  six? 

A.  There  was  no  police  with  me.  I  saw  civilians  walking  around 
outside.  I  got  down  to  the  barracks  and  was  told  that  Lawless  and 
Gibbons  were  shot,  and  were  down  in  the  lane  about  six  yards  off 
the  road.  I  saw  the  black  objects  of  their  bodies,  but  did  not  feel 
able  to  go  down  and  look  at  it  myself. 

Q.     Were  there  people  around  the  bodies? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  around  there  looking  at  them. 

Q.  What  was  your  information  about  where  they  were  killed 
and  how  the  bodies  got  there? 

A.     They  were  killed  around  the  corner  in  Quay  Street. 

Q.     Where  were  the  bodies  lying? 

A.     On  the  roadside,  by  two  pools  of  blood. 


Q.     What  was  your  information  about  how  the  bodies  got  there? 

A.  The  neighbors  carried  them  down  to  the  gate  in  the  lane, 
about  five  or  six  yards  down.  The  neighbors  found  their  bodies  on 
the  roadway  and  removed  them  from  the  sight  of  the  public. 

Q.     Who  was  Mr.  Lawless? 

A.     He  was  the  local  barber. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     James. 

Q.     Who  was  Mr.  Gibbons? 

A.  He  was  a  dairy  proprietor,  living  with  his  mother.  His 
name  was  John. 

Q.     How  old  was  Mr.  Gibbons? 

A.     About  thirty-five. 

Q.     Was  he  a  married  man? 

A.     No,  he  lived  with  his  mother  and  three  sisters. 

Q.     Was  he  a  law-abiding  man? 

A.     Yes,  indeed. 

Q.     How  old  was  Mr.  Lawless? 

A.     About  forty. 

Q.     Had  he  any  family? 

A.     Yes,  seven  children. 

Q.     Had  he  a  wife  living? 

A.     Yes,  she  is  living. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  I  wish  you  would  detail  the  circum- 
stances as  they  were  given  to  you  the  next  morning  about  the  death 
of  these  men. 

A.  Lawless  was  first  taken.  His  was  the  first  house  attacked. 
He  was  brought  into  the  barracks  at  the  time  I  was  brought  down. 

Q.     Did  you  see  him  there? 

A.  I  did  not.  But  his  sons  said  they  heard  their  father's  voice 
inside.  The  local  doctor  was  then  in  the  day  room.  He  was  badly 
bruised  and  beaten  about  the  head. 

Q.     Where  was  Mr.  Lawless's  son? 

A.     He  was  on  the  porch  of  the  barracks,  where  I  was. 

Q.     Did  he  have  anyone  with  him? 

A.     He  had  his  little  sister  about  four  years  old. 

Q.     The  sick  child? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Had  he  been  brought  there  with  his  father? 

A.     No,  he  came  there  after  his  father  was  taken. 

Q.     He  was  in  the  hotel  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  he  brought  the  child  to  the  hotel. 


Q.     You  were  telling  about  the  death  of  Mr.  Lawless. 

A.  About  half  past  one  two  Black-and-Tans  came  into  the  bar- 
racks and  asked  Lawless  to  tell  them  who  shot  Inspector  Burke. 
He  said  he  did  not  know,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  said,  "Tell  the 
truth  or  you  will  be  shot  at  half  two,"  looking  at  their  wrist  watches. 

Q.     He  looked  at  his  wrist  watch? 

A.  Yes,  and  said  right  out,  "You  will  be  shot  at  half  two."  He 
was  then  taken  outside  the  barracks,  and  there  was  some  shots  fired. 
It  was  presumed  to  be  at  Lawless,  but  not  to  hit  him — to  frighten 
him.  And  he  was  brought  in  again.  Gibbons,  John  Gibbons,  was 
brought  into  the  barracks  just  as  Lawless  went  back  to  the  barracks, 
and  after  half  an  hour  or  so  there,  they  came  in,  the  same  two 
Black-and-Tans,  and  asked  Gibbons  to  tell  who  shot  Burke.  He 
said  he  did  not  know.  They  said,  "You  will  have  to  tell  the  truth." 
He  said,  "I  am  telling  the  truth."  They  asked  him  to  tell  what  he 
had  to  do  with  the  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers.  He  said  he  was  secretary 
for  the  local  Volunteers.  The  two  of  them  were  then  brought  out, 
one  after  the  other,  again,  and  were  asked  the  same  questions,  and 
the  same  procedure  went  on.  That  is,  there  were  shots  fired,  and 
they  were  brought  in  again  to  the  barracks.  They  remained  there 
until  about  quarter  to  five  in  the  morning,  when  they  were  taken 
out  and  brought  around  to  Quay  Street,  about  ten  yards  from  the 
barracks,   and  were  bayoneted  to   death. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    They  were  stabbed  to  death  with  bayonets? 

A.     Yes,  with  bayonets. 

Q.     No  shots  were  fired  into  them  at  any  time? 

A.     No,  not  according  to  the  doctor's  report. 

Q.     How  many  times  were  the  bodies  pierced? 

A.  There  were  three  in  Gibbons's  neck  and  several  across  the 
body.  The  other  man  had  bayonet  wounds  nine  inches  long  in  each 
of  his  thighs. 


Q.     Did  you  find  all  of  your  family  in  the  hotel,  Mr.  Derham? 

A.  No.  After  passing  where  Lawless  and  Gibbons  was,  I  went 
further.     I  saw  nothing  was  standing  there. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:    Your  own  home? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  walls  were  all  tumbled  down.  Not  the  mak- 
ings of  a  match  was  left. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Burned  all  your  property? 


A.     The  whole  lot. 

Q.     Clothing? 

A.     Yes;  we  were  not  dressed. 

Q.     Everything  you  had  in  the  house  was  burned? 

A.  Yes,  everything  we  had.  I  was  told  then  by  the  people  that 
Mike  was  all  right,  that  he  was  up  in  a  neighbor's  cottage,  Murphy's, 
about  a  mile  out  of  town;  that  he  was  badly  beat  about  the  head. 
I  was  afraid,  because  so  many  were  telling  me  he  was  up  there,  that 
the  police  would  hear  about  it  and  beat  me  up  there,  and  so  I  went 
up  immediately. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    What  was  his  condition? 

A.  He  was  badly  cut  about  the  forehead;  his  lip  was  stitched 
here  (indicating  front  of  lip),  and  his  jaw  was  bruised  badly,  and 
several  bad  wounds  about  his  head.  His  arms  were  so  stiff  he  could 
hardly  shake  hands  with  me. 

Q.     He  was  lying  on  the  bed? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Dressed? 

A.  Partially  dressed — trousers  and  coat  and  stockings.  I  asked 
him  to  tell  me  how  he  got  out  of  the  house.  He  told  me  he  didn't 
know;  he  remembered  calling  for  his  mother  two  or  three  times, 
and  didn't  know  anything  more.  Finally  he  was  found  lying  in  the 
field  and  brought  to  this  house. 

Q.     What  is  your  information  about  what  happened  to  him? 

The  Witness:  After  he  left  the  house  and  went  into  the  next 

Senator  Walsh:    No,  before  he  left  the  house? 

The  Witness:    What  he  told  me  himself? 

Senator  Walsh:    Yes. 

The  Witness:  When  we  left  the  room  one  of  the  Black-and-Tans 
said:  "There  is  the  young  lad;  take  him."  And  they  went  to  choke 
his  brother,  John. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :    How  old  is  John? 

A.  Just  fifteen.  And  Mike  said,  "It  is  not  him,  it  is  me  who  is 
wanted."     And  they  immediately  left  John  go  and  went  for  him. 

Q.     How  old  is  Mike? 

A.  Just  twenty.  So  they  immediately  went  for  him  and  were 
beating  him  about  the  face  and  body.  They  had  him  on  the  bed. 
He  asked  them  to  shoot  him  and  end  it,  and  they  said  shooting  was 
too  good  for  him.  He  then  turned  his  face  on  the  bed  to  save  his 
face,  and  he  was  then  struck  on  the  back  of  the  head,  and  they  left 
him  unconscious.     They  left  him  there  on  account  of  the  fire. 


Q.     Where  was  he — in  the   burning  house? 

A.     That  was  where  he  was. 

Q.     Did  he  know  how  he  got  out  of  the  house? 

A.  No,  he  said.  He  got  out  and  called  for  his  mother  three 
times.  He  got  to  the  top  of  the  garden  and  got  "Halt,"  but  instead 
of  halting  he  ran  and  jumped  into  the  neighbor's — Burke's  garden. 
There  is  a  river  at  the  back  of  our  place  that  supplies  the  denim 
mill  with  water — about  knee  deep  or  so.  Mike  made  it  over  there. 
They  went  up  the  river  and  Mike  went  down  the  river. 

Q.     Who  went  up  the  river? 

A.  Burke.  Burke  and  his  two  sisters  went  up  the  river,  and 
Mike  went  down  the  river. 

Q.     Where  was  Mike  after  that? 

A.     He  was  seen  down  on  Quay  Street  and  Mill  Street. 

Q.     What  was  his  apparent  condition? 

A.  They  did  not  know.  He  gave  a  knock  at  a  door  as  he  was 
passing  through  the  town. 

Q.     Apparently  seeking  shelter? 

A.     Knocking  at  the  street  door  at  any  rate. 

Q.     Where  was  he  found? 

A.     Lying  in  a  field  of  oats  by  a  man  named  Costello. 

Q.     Where  was  he  then  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  Murphy's  cottage  with  no  clothes  on  him. 
I  then  came  back  from  there  and  got  a  motor  car  and  sent  him  to 
Drogheda,  both  to  be  attended  to  and  to  be  out  of  the  way;  and  I 
have  not  seen  him  since. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  he  all  right  now?  Have  you  got  word 
from  him  since? 

A.     No,  but  he  is  all  right.     He  cannot  communicate. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  condition 
of  your  own  house. 

A.  It  was  burned  to  the  ground,  and  not  a  vestige  left.  Not  a 
vestige  left.  Everything  burned  down.  My  neighbor's  house,  Con- 
nolly's, on  the  opposite  corner,  was  the  same  way.  Nothing  but 
bricks  and  stones.  Clanard  Street,  seventeen  houses  burned  in  that 
street,  nine  in  one  row. 

0-     Were  those  dwelling  houses? 

A.  Dwelling  houses.  Three  of  them  were  two-story  houses — 
shops — and  another  was  a  Mrs.  Cochran's  dairy.     When  the  Black- 


and-Tans  came  in  there  Mrs.  Cochran  ran  out  into  the  yard  and 
left  two  of  her  little  boys  behind.  One  of  them  was  about  twelve 
and  the  other  ten.  They  made  them  get  up  and  dress  themselves 
and  brought  them  through  the  house  upstairs  where  they  were  break- 
ing up  the  furniture.  Whenever  they  would  see  a  religious  picture, 
they  would  make  the  children  look  at  it,  and  put  their  bayonet 
through  it. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  They  would  have  the  children  put  the 
bayonet  through  it? 

A.  Oh,  no;  they  would  do  it;  but  they  would  make  the  children 
look  at  it  to  see  what  they  were  doing. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood1:    That  means  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Yes,  the  Black-and-Tans.  They  brought  them  down  the 
street  toward  our  place  to  see  Derham's  fire. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Did  they  sav  that  to  them? 

A.  Yes,  they  took  the  children  by  the  hand,  and  told  them  they 
were  bringing  them  down  to  see  Derham's  fire. 

Q.     That  is  to  say,  your  house  afire? 

A.  Yes,  to  see  my  house  afire.  They  brought  them  back,  then, 
into  their  own  yard,  and  told  them  to  sit  down  at  a  hay  rick  to  warm 
themselves.    They  threw  a  tin  of  petrol  over  the  rick  and  set  it  afire. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Where  did  they  get  the  petrol? 

A.  When  they  came  into  the  town,  they  went  that  night  at  quar- 
ter past  eleven  to  a  man  named  Martin  Connolly,  asking  him  for 
the  keys  of  his  garage;  got  them;  went  down  and  took  out  thirty 
tins  of  petrol;  locked  up  the  garage;  and  returned  the  keys  to  him, 
and  told  him  his  house  would  be  all  right. 

Q.     How  many  residences  were  there  burned? 

A.     Twenty-five  of  them  altogether. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Just  a  moment.  He  did  not  finish  about 
the  hay  rick. 

A.  They  then  set  fire  to  the  hay  rick,  and  then  set  fire  to  the 
Cochran  house. 

Q.     Was  that  house  completely  destroyed? 

A.     Completely,  except  the  back  of  the  kitchen. 

Q.     Were  there  other  houses  completely  destroyed? 

A.  Totally  destroyed.  Twenty-five  houses  in  the  town  were 
totally  destroyed. 

Q.     They  were  all  dwelling  houses  and  all  occupied? 

1  Mr.  L.  Hollingsworth  Wood  was  present  at  the  First  Hearings  by  invi- 
tation of  the  Commission,  and  was  elected  to  and  accepted  membership  on 
the  Commission  prior  to  the  Second  Hearings. 


A.  Yes,  all  occupied.  In  Clanard  Street  there  were  nine  single 
houses  and  all  destroyed — not  a  vestige  left. 

Q.  Were  these  houses  largely  owned  by  people  who  worked  in 
the  mills? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  occupied  by  the  mill  people  and  fishing  people 
and  laborers. 

Q.  Were  there  any  business  places  destroyed  other  than  the  fac- 
tory you  have  mentioned? 

A.  Yes.  Costello  and  myself  and  two  others;  four  publicans 
and  two  groceries;  six  business  houses  altogether. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  About  the  mill.  Where  was  the  mill  located 
with  reference  to  these  houses? 

The  Witness:    The  factory? 

Senator  Walsh:    Yes,  the  factory. 

A.  The  factory  would  be  about  five  hundred  yards  from  the 
nearest  burned  dwelling. 

Q.     Was  it  detached  from  the  rest  of  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  detached.  There  is  a  railroad  embankment  passing 
through  our  town  about  ten  to  fifteen  feet  high,  and  it  is  on  the  sea 
side  of  the  embankment  that  this  factory  is  situated.  You  cannot 
see  it  from  the  town. 

Q.     That  factory  was  burned  this  night? 

A.     It  was  burned  the  next  morning. 

Q.     Was  it  totally  destroyed? 

A.  Totally  destroyed;  one  hundred  thousand  pounds  loss.  It 
is  owned  in  London.  The  manager  is  an  Englishman.  There  is 
nothing  in  a  political  line  there.  Only  to  leave  destitution  in  the 

Q.     It  threw  them  out  of  work? 

A.  Yes,  one  hundred  twenty  people  in  the  factory  and  three  hun- 
dred more  working  in  their  homes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  say  these  people  worked  in  their 

A.  In  taking  the  stockings  in  their  homes  and  doing  embroidery 
on  them. 

Q.  So  on  your  estimate  it  threw  four  hundred  twenty  people  out 
of  employment? 

A.     Yes,  out  of  employment. 

Q.     That  was  their  sole  means  of  livelihood? 


A.     Yes,  their  sole  means. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  houses  in  Balbriggan  for  these  people 
whose  homes  were  burned? 

A.  No,  there  were  no  other  places  for  them.  I  myself  have  two 
of  my  girls  in  lodgings. 

Q.     Hired  a  lodging  for  them? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Describe  how  your  own  family  is  dis- 

A.  Two  of  them  are  in  lodgings  with  a  friend  in  Balbriggan, 
and  one  of  the  boys  is  with  a  friend  because  he  is  going  to  school 
there.  Mike  is  in  Drogheda,  and  the  rest  of  them  are  in  Rush,  nine 
miles  away. 

Q.     Where  did  you  stop? 

A.  I  stopped  in  Rush  with  my  wife.  We  could  not  get  a  place 
in  the  town  for  them. 

Q.     How  are  these  laborers  maintained? 

A.     There  was  a  public  subscription  for  them  in  the  town. 

Q.     As  a  rule,  none  of  them  had  savings? 

A.     Oh,  there  were  no  savings,  no. 


Q.     What  became  of  the  people  of  the  town? 

A.     That  was  a  night  of  terror.     Over  two-thirds  of  the  people 

were  in  the  country  all  that  night. 

Q.     Where  did  they  sleep? 

A.  In  the  fields.  They  slept  anywhere,  some  of  them  in  ditches 
filled  with  barbed  wire  all  night. 

Q.     They  left  things  behind  them? 

A.  Yes,  everything.  Some  of  them  went  out  only  with  their 
night  dresses  and  bare  feet. 

Q.     Men,  women,  and  children? 

A.     Yes,  everybody.    They  had  to. 

Q.     Many  children  in  the  town,  I  suppose? 

A.     Many  of  them. 

Q.     Was  there  any  other  damage  done? 

A.     In  that  Clanard  Street  I  spoke  of,  they  broke  the  windows  of 

fifty  houses  in  that  street,  along  with  burning  seventeen  houses. 

Q.     Did  that  state  of  terror  continue  for  some  time  after  that? 

A.     I  think  it  was  Sunday  before  they  settled  down. 

Q.     And  this  occurred  on  Monday  night? 


A.     On  Monday  night. 

Q.     For  the  balance  of  the  week,  where  did  the  people  go? 

A.  They  spent  the  night  in  the  country.  They  did  not  wait  until 
night  to  go.  When  four  o'clock  or  evening  came,  you  would  see 
them  going  away  to  the  country,  stopping  in  the  farmers'  stables  or 
barns  or  hay  lofts  or  anything  they  could  get,  or  in  the  ditches. 
Two-thirds  of  the  people  left  the  town  during  the  week. 

Q.     Afraid  to  stay  over  night? 

A.  Yes,  because  they  had  it  all  day.  They  had  these  Crossley 
engines  running  through  the  town  full  of  Black-and-Tans  sitting 
with  their  rifles  at  the  ready  all  the  time.  If  they  saw  a  crowd  at 
the  corner,  they  would  bring  up  their  rifles  and  fire  shots. 

Q.     Were  they  firing  shots  all  the  time? 

A.  They  were.  On  the  Wednesday  after  that  they  fired  in 
through  the  grocer's  window  and  took  half  his  collar  away,  just 
like  that  (indicating  coat  lapel).  At  the  same  time  they  threw  a 
Mills  bomb  in  the  butcher  shop  on  the  side  street,  and  a  piece  went 
through  an  apple  in  a  young  lad's  pocket.  The  next  grocery  shop 
they  fired  and  destroyed  the  scales.  And  another  place  they  fired 
into  a  crowd  of  young  ladies. 

Q.     Going  along  the  road,  what  is  the  situation? 

A.  They  go  along  the  road  with  these  big  lorries  of  three  to  five 
tons  at  a  dangerous  speed. 

Q.     Do  they  fire  along  the  road? 

A.  Oh,  constantly,  at  the  animals.  Take  Mr.  McCullough;  the 
old  gentleman  was  there  with  his  sons,  and  they  fired  on  them. 
Another  place  they  cut  the  tails  off  of  four  pullets,  and  one  of  them 
after  died. 


Q.     Did  they  do  any  other  damage? 

A.     Yes,  they  raped  and  looted. 

Q.     What  did  they  do? 

A.  In  the  house  next  to  me  there  was  a  public  house,  and  they 
took  the  bottles  away. 

Q.     Did  they  do  any  drinking? 

A.  No,  not  at  this  place.  The  place  opposite  me,  at  Connolly's, 
was  where  they  drank. 

Q.     What  was  the  situation  at  Connolly's? 

A.  Connolly  had  two  large  glass  windows,  and  they  broke  these 
with  the  butts  of  their  rifles.     The  place  was  well  lighted  up  by  the 


fire  from  my  house  opposite,  and  they  drank  to  their  fill  before  the 
place  was  destroyed.  Two  grocery  stores  they  looted  and  raped; 
threw  the  tea  and  sugar  and  soap  and  candles  and  everything  on  the 
floor  about  three  feet  high;  tramped  over  it;  and  pulled  things  out 
in  the  passage  to  destroy  what  they  did  not  set  fire  to. 

Q.     Did  you  see  the  stuff  there  the  next  day? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     Took  it  out  and  tramped  it  in  the  dirt? 

A.     They  did.     I  saw  it  myself. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  business  houses  destroyed? 

A.  Of  course,  there  were  four  public  houses  completely  de- 
stroyed.    All  the  things  in  them  were  completely  destroyed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Was  there  any  way  to  get  repaia- 
tion  from  the  British  Government? 

A.     They  are  working  for  that.     They  are  trying  to  do  it. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    Is  it  a  civil  process? 

A.  They  are  going  to  the  civil  courts  first,  and  they  do  not  know 
what  they  will  do  afterward. 

Q.     These  business  men  are  trying  to  do  this? 

A.     Yes,  they  are  trying  to  do  that. 

Q.     Does  the  British  Government  acknowledge  that  as  a  claim? 

A.  No,  they  do  not  acknowledge  that.  We  are  trying  to  test 
them  first. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  inquiry  held  in  Balbriggan  by  the  au- 

A.  No,  not  that  I  know  of.  I  never  had  an  invitation  to  any 

Q.  Did  the  British  Labor  Party  send  a  mission  to  Balbriggan  as 
it  did  to  Thurles? 

A.  No,  but  the  International  Women's  League  did.1  That  came 
from  Manchester. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    Can  you  tell  us  about  that? 

A.  Yes.  I  met  them  when  they  came.  I  was  on  the  same  train. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  leader  handed  me  a  letter  with  my  name  on 
it,  asking  me  where  Mr.  Derham  was. 

Q.     Did  they  seem  to  be  making  a  fair-minded  investigation? 

A.     They  did.     They  seemed  to  be  all  right. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:    Did  they  question  the  people  any? 

1  The  witness  refers  to  the  British  Branch  of  the  Women's  Interna- 
tional League,  which  sent  an  investigating  mission  to  Ireland,  two  mem- 
bers of  which,  Mrs.  Annot  Erskine  Robinson  and  Miss  Ellen  C.  Wilkin- 
son,  testified   before   the    Commission.      See   index   and   list   of   witnesses. 


A.  They  did.  They  questioned  the  people  who  had  gone 
through  the  fine  and  slept  out  in  the  fields. 

Q.     Did  they  question  the  police? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     How  long  a  time  did  they  spend  there? 

A.  From  half  twelve  to  five.  They  went  on  the  same  train 
back  to  Dublin  that  I  was  going  back. 

Q.     Half  twelve  means  half-past  eleven  or  half-past  twelve? 

A.     Half-past  twelve. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Were  there  any  dairies  in  the  neighbor- 
hood destroyed? 

A.  No;  we  do  not  have  any  dairies.  The  only  thing  we  had 
was  factories.     That  was  all  they  could  destroy. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  These  textile  workers,  do  they  be- 
long to  a  union? 

A.     They  do.     They  are  all   union. 

Q.     Do  you  have  any  other  unions  in  the  city? 

A.  The  only  other  union  we  have  is  the  Irish  Transport 

Q.  These  fishermen,  do  they  dispose  of  their  own  catch  or  work 
for  some  fishing  concern? 

A.  They  dispose  of  their  own  catch.  That  is  a  thing  that 
the  Republican  government  is  trying  to  bring  in — cooperation — so 
that  we  can  all  do  our  own  business. 

Q.  These  unions,  as  unions,  are  they  in  any  way  harassed  by 
the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military? 

A.     No,  not  as  unions.     That  would  be  too  large  a  job. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  the  press  in  Balbriggan  free  to  say 
what  it  pleases? 

A.  There  is  no  local  press.  There  is  the  Freeman,  but  the 
editor  is  to  be  up  before  the  Government  this  week  or  next  week 
for  condemning  the  actions  of  the  Black-and-Tans  in  the  country. 

He  is  under   arrest? 

Yes,  he  is  to  be  called  up  for  trial. 



Before   the   regular   criminal    courts? 

I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

There  is  an  indictment  against  him? 

Yes,    for   condemning   the   Black-and-Tans. 


Q.  Do  they  permit  public  meetings  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  No  public  meetings  are  allowed. 

Q.  No   gatherings   in   the   streets? 

A.  None  in  the  streets. 

Q.  Or  in  the  halls? 

A.  You  can  go  to  the  hall  if  they  know  what  the  meeting  is 

about,  but  you  cannot  hold  any  political  meeting. 

Q.  Where   do   the   Republicans   hold   their   political    meetings? 

A.  Oh,  different  places. 

Q.  But  they  do  hold  them? 

A.  Yes,  they  do  hold  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:   They   are  not  generally   advertised? 

A.  Oh,  no.     Oh,  no. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  has  been  the  effect  of  this  on  the 
business  of  Balbriggan,  especially  from  the  country  districts? 

A.  The  country  districts  are  bad.  It  is  hard  on  them.  You 
do  not  have  any  country  people  in  the  afternoon.  They  will  come 
in  only  when  they  have  to.  They  cannot  travel  on  the  roads  to 
Dublin  or  Drogheda,  for  they  are  afraid  of  the  shooting. 

Q.     Where  do  the  people  get  their  food  from? 

A.     It  has  to  come  in  on  the  trains  or  from  around  the  town. 

Q.     The  people  do  not  come  into  the  town  like  they  did? 

A.  No.  We  are  in  a  sense  isolated.  It  is  not  safe  to  be  com- 
ing in.     You  do  not  know  what  you  are  going  to  meet. 

Q.     Does  the  local  town  council  meet  regularly  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  It  did  not  for  awhile.  It  took  five  to  form  a  quorum.  When 
my  son  was  away,  we  could  not  get  a  quorum,  because  the  Union- 
ists did  not  attend. 

Q.     You  had  no  local  government,  then? 

A.  Not  until  he  came  out.  Since  then  we  have  had  two  or 
three  meetings.  He  would  go  to  Balbriggan  to  attend  them  and 
then  leave. 

Q.     So  your  local  government  is  not  functioning  now? 

A.  Oh,  well,  its  duties  are  not  much.  You  see  the  state  of 
terrorism  there,  and  people  are  so  frightened.  My  son  was  not 
out  until  the  fifteenth  of  October.  That  was  more  than  a  month 
afterwards.  He  went  down  to  Balbriggan  on  Saturday,  to  attend 
a  council  meeting.  On  Saturday  evening,  when  he  was  seen  about, 
they  got  a  report  that  there  would  be  a  raid  on  to  get  Derham  by 


night.  Half  the  town  slept  in  the  fields  that  night  in  fear  of  what 
might  happen. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  your  son  on  the  run? 

A.  The  two  of  them  are  on  the  run.  He  goes  in  the  daytime. 
They  are  not  afraid  in  the  daytime.  It  is  the  night  time  they  are 
afraid  of.  It  is  terrorism.  You  do  not  want  to  be  with  friends, 
for  you  are  liable  to  get  the  whole  place  broken  up  for  them. 
And  if  you  stay  in  your  own  home,  it  is  sure  to  be  broken  up. 


Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Have  there  been  any  deaths  since? 

A.  Five  of  them,  soon  after  that:  three  elderly  persons  and 
two  children.     The  fright  and  exposure  was  largely  to  blame  for  it. 

And  it  isn't  over  yet.  There  were  handbills  saying,  "Send  in- 
formation to  D.  W.  Ross,  London."  That  is  the  way  they  get  all 
their  information.  They  came  around  three  weeks  after  the  burn- 
ing and  pasted  one  on  every  door  in  town,  and  at  some  doors  they 
knocked.  There  was  an  old  woman  sixty-five  or  sixty-eight  years 
of  age,  and  she  died  from  the  fright. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:   What  were  these  bills? 

A.  Handbills  telling  us  to  send  any  information  we  knew  about 
Sinn  Fein  to  D.  W.  Ross,  London,  and  you  would  get  the  money 

Q.     Who  is  D.  W.  Ross?      Does  anybody  know? 

A.  That  is  unknown.  It  is  somebody  in  London.  You  send  in 
the  information,  and  you  would  get  a  reward  afterwards. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  these  raids,  did  they  just  take 
particular  parties,  or  did  they  take  the  whole  street,  or  select  those 
who  are  Republicans  and  Sinn  Fein? 

A.  They  did  not  take  everybody.  They  picked  them  out  like 
they  did  me. 

Q.     Any  big  business  property  molested  besides  the  big  mill? 

A.     No,  that  was  all,  the  big  mill. 


Now,  you  might  want  to  know  about  burials.  When  the  funerals 
of  Lawless  and  Gibbons  were  about  to  be  held,  we  were  going  to 
have  the  tricolor  on  the  coffins. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  is  the  tricolor? 

A.  The  colors  of  the  Irish  Republic.  When  the  funerals  were 
to  be  held,  we  wanted  to  have  the  Volunteers  there  and  march. 
But    about    twelve    o'clock    that    day,    or    eleven,    the    word    came 


through  some  of  the  clergy  that  if  this  thing  was  to  go  on,  if  there 
was  any  tricolor  out  or  any  military  formation,  the  Black-and- 
Tans  would  come  on  that  night  and  wipe  the  town  out.  There 
was  a  long  discussion.  Some  of  them  wanted  to  do  it  anyway. 
But  it  was  finally  decided  that  for  the  sake  of  the  town  we  would 
have  to  cut  it  out. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Is  there  any  limitation  of  the  number 
of  persons  who  are  allowed  to  attend  people's   funerals? 

A.  At  the  present  time  there  is  a  limitation,  as  in  the  case  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  Terrence  MacSwiney.  It  was  limited 
to  a  quarter  of  a  mile  long.  There  would  have  been  four  or  five 
miles  of  it.     And  then  you  are  accompanied  by  these  motor  lorries. 


Q.  I  believe  you  had  some  information  about  the  murder  of 
a  man  at  Sherries? 

A.     At  Skerries. 

Q.     What  is  the  situation  of  this  town? 

A.     Four  miles  from  us. 

Q.     What  are  the  circumstances  of  the  death  of  Mr.  Sherlock? 

A.  Penstraw  is  that  man's  name.  He  was  supposed  to  be 
around  with  the  Black-and-Tans  at  the  night  of  the  sacking  of 
Balbriggan,  showing  them  where  the  Sinns  were.  So  he  left  the 
town  the  day  after,  and  he  was  in  Skerries.  The  report  was  that 
the  Skerries  Volunteers  put  him  out  of  Skerries.  That  was  the 
report.  That  was  about  three  or  four  days  afterwards.  About  a 
month  after  that,  there  was  a  body  got  about  eight  miles  away  in 
a  ditch.  It  turned  out  to  be  Penstraw.  He  was  not  buried  right. 
There  was  heavy  rains  on.  There  was  some  young  lads  in  the 
ditch  getting  blackberries,  and  they  found  the  body. 

Q.     Was  there  a  man  named  Sherlock  in  that  place? 

A.  Well,  then,  he  was  identified.  The  police  were  very  active, 
and  he  was  identified  as  Penstraw. 

Q.     Was  there  a  man  named  Sherlock  killed  there? 

A.  Yes.  Well,  that  night  they  went  up  to  Skerries  in  motor 

Q.     How  many? 

A.  I  do  not  know  how  many  lorries  went  up,  but  there  was  a 
hundred  or  so  Black-and-Tans.  They  stopped  out  on  the  Balbriggan 
side  of  the  town  and  walked  so  that  they  would  make  no  noise. 
They  went  to   a  namesake  of  mine,   Derham,   and  knocked   on  his 


door,  and  he  let  them  in,  and  stood  in  another  door  as  they  passed 
by  and  went  upstairs  in  the  house.  And  then  they  went  out  again. 
Derham  immediately  went  out,  when  they  broke  in  the  door  to  look 
for  him.  So  he  escaped.  They  then  went  to  a  young  man  named 
Terrol  and  kept  him  on  his  knees  for  two  hours,  and  then  went  for 
Sherlock.  The  father  answered  the  door.  They  asked  for  his  son 
John — John  Sherlock.  The  father  said,  "He  is  not  in.-"  He  said, 
"it  is  all  right,  father.  They  will  not  do  me  any  harm."  They 
brought  him  away  about  three  hundred  yards  in  a  field,  and  when 
his  father  and  sister  found  him  that  morning,  about  seven  o'clock, 
there  were  three  bullet  wounds  in  his  breast  and  four  in  his  head. 
But  Terrol  was  all  right.  They  did  not  shoot  him.  The  next  night 
they  came  again  and  set  fire  to  Derham's  house  and  burned  it 
all  up. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  This  first  man,  he  was  an  informer? 

A.  \es.  he  was  said  to  be  an  informer,  going  around  with  the 

Q.  Was  there  any  reason  for  the  Black-and-Tans  believing  that 
these  men  were  implicated  in  this  crime? 

A.  The  only  reason  was  that  the  body  was  found  about  eight 
miles  away  from  Skerries. 

Q.     There  was  no  oth 

was  no  otner  reason 

A.     No. 

Q.      It  was  only  an  excuse? 

A.  Yes,  all  they  wanted  was  an  excuse.  That  was  all  they 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:  But  was  this  body  identified  as  that  of  the  man? 

A.     Yes,  I  believe  an  uncle  and  an  aunt  identified  it. 

Q.     But  the  body  had  been  dead  a  long  time? 

A.  Yes,  it  was.  He  was  missing  for  about  a  month.  I  don't 
know  how  long  the  body  was  there.  But  they  could  identify  it  by 
some  of  the  things  or.  the  body. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  further  statement  you  want 
to  make? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  that  covers  it,  Mr.  Derham. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:  The  Smith  public  house  was  also  destroyed? 

A.     Oh,  no;  nothing  done  there.     Not  a  pane  of  glass  broken. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  that  Smith  place  a  place  to  which  the 
Black-and-Tans  resorted  a  great  deal? 

A.     They  did. 

Q.     None  of  them  ever  came  to  your  place? 

A.  They  did  not.  None  of  them  came  there.  Perhaps  two  or 
three  times  altogether. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  do  you  explain  that?  They  left 
the  Smith  house  and  destroyed  the  others. 

A.  That  is  the  mystery.  If  that  had  happened  in  my  house,  1 
would  not  be  here.  There  was  not  a  pane  of  glass  broken  in  the 
Smith  house. 

Chairman  Howe:  That  is  all.    Thank  you  very  much. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 

*  *  *  *  *  »  *  « 


Chairman  Howe:  Is  Mrs.  King  here? 

(The  witness  takes  the  stand.) 

Mrs.  King,  of  Ironton. 

Q.     Please  state,  Mrs.  King,  your  full  name  and  residence. 

A.     Agnes  B.  King,  of  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  Ironton? 

A.     Six  years. 

Q.     And  in  the  United  States? 

A.     All  my  life. 

Q.     You  were  born  here? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  you  married? 

A.     I  am  a  widow  with  three  children. 

Q.     Are  you  a  professional  woman? 

A.  I  cannot  be  said  to  be  that,  no.  I  have  taught  school  formerly 
in  the  Cleveland  public  schools.     That  is  all. 

Q.     You  have  been  recently  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  for  about  eight  weeks,  and  one  week  in  London. 

Q.     When  did  you  enter  Ireland? 

A.     I  entered  Ireland  on  the  twenty-second  of  July. 

Q.     When  did  you  leave? 

A.     The  twenty-third  of  September,  1920. 

Q.     What  led  you  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  went  over  at  first  for  my  health.  I  did  not  intend  to  visit 
Ireland  except  for  two  or  three  weeks.  My  real  intention  was  to 
take  my  grown-up  niece,  who  was  a  French  student,  to  France.  But 
I  changed  my  mind  after  being  in  Ireland  two  or  three  weeks,  be- 
cause the  situation  was  so  engrossing.  And  so,  although  I  had  a 
passport  to  France,  I  did  not  go. 

Q.     Why  did  you  go  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  went  to  Ireland  because  my  mother  and  father  were  born 
in  Ireland.  My  father  was  all  through  his  life  a  very  strict  Protes- 
tant, and  would  not  on  any  account  enter  a  Catholic  church.     He 


was  opposed  to  the  Catholic  faith  save  as  he  saw  it  exemplified  in 
my  mother's  life,  and  this  he  admired. 

Q.     Your  mother  was  a  Catholic? 

A.     Yes,  she  was  a  Catholic. 

Q.     Were  they  born  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  both  born  in  Cork  city.  He  was  baptized  in 
the  famous  Shandon  church.  I  got  his  baptismal  record  while  I 
was  over  there. 

Q.     What  was  your  father's  business? 

A.     He  was  a  manufacturer  of  barrels  all  his  life. 

Q.     You  went  back  to  visit  their  old  home? 

A.  Yes.  My  mother  died  last  January,  and  I  became  very  ill 
after  her  death,  and  my  people  suggested  that  a  sea  voyage  would 
do  me  much  good,  and  I  said  that  perhaps  the  sight  of  my  mother's 
and  my  father's  birthplace  would  reawaken  interest  in  me.  And  I 
also  wanted  to  take  this  niece,  who  had  been  raised  by  mother  from 
a  baby.  I  thought  that  if  she  had  a  stay  in  France,  it  would  be 
the  best  thing  for  her.  I  also  took  my  daughter  with  me.  My 
daughter  is  twelve  years  of  age. 

Q.     Where  did  you  land  in  Ireland? 

A.  Kingstown,  I  think.  We  went  straight  across  from  Liver- 
pool.    We  took  a  taxi  up  to  the  hotel  in  Dublin. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  remain  in  Dublin? 

A.     About  a  week,  I  think. 

Q.     What  did  you  do  there? 

Q.  We  went  sight-seeing,  and  I  called  on  my  people  there.  We 
visited  all  the  famous  churches  there,  and  the  cemeteries.  I  think 
that  is  about  all  that  I  did  in  Dublin. 

Q.  You  know  in  a  general  way  the  purposes  of  this  inquiry. 
Now,  go  on  in  your  own  way. 


A.  The  first  time  that  I  was  terrified  in  Ireland  was  at  Temple- 
more.  I  remember  going  with  my  daughter  and  my  niece  to  visit  a 
church  on  Saturday  evening,  and  the  lorries  were  coming  into  town 
at  full  speed.  This  was  my  first  close  view  of  lorries.  They  were 
bent  on  terrorizing  the  people.  They  came  down  the  road  at  a  very 
high  rate  of  speed.  The  drivers  were  completely  white  with  dust. 
It  seemed  to  me  almost  like  flour  dust,  they  were  going  so  fast. 
The  lorries  were  all  filled  with  soldiers.  The  guns  were  all  at  atten- 
tion. I  clung  to  my  daughter  and  my  niece,  and  I  think  we  said  a 
few  prayers,  for  it  had  been  said  in  Templemore  that  day  that  they 


were  bent  on  mischief.  The  driver  wanted  to  have  a  little  fun,  for 
he  swung  the  first  lorry  near  to  the  curb,  and  the  muffler  blew  off  just 
as  they  passed  us.  I  called  out,  "We  are  Americans,"  but  of  course 
it  was  only  my  woman's  fright  and  terror. 

During  that  night  we  drew  the  dresser  up  in  front  of  the  window, 
and  during  that  night  there  were  shots  fired   in  the  Square. 

Q.     Where  is  Templemore? 

A.  It  is  in  the  central  part  of  Tipperary,  not  far  from  Thurles. 
When  I  arrived  in  Templemore  I  heard  of  the  outrages  in  Thurles, 
and  the  air  seemed  rife  with  coming  danger.  So  I  was  anxious  to 
be  out  of  the  place  as  soon  as  possible.  I  might  say  that  in  every 
place  and  in  every  town  where  we  stopped  in  Ireland,  the  dressers 
were  put  up  before  the  windows  to  ward  off  the  shots  if  there  were 
firing  during  the  night.  In  Cork,  really  the  only  place  that  I  was 
interested  in  seeing  in  Ireland,  because  it  was  the  city  of  my  parents' 
nativity,  I  was  thinking  of  anything  but  of  the  military  program  in 
that  city,  and  was  bent  on  thoughts  of  my  recently  deceased  mother 
when  we  entered  the  city.  There  we  were  in  the  midst  of  scenes 
of  great  military  activity,  and  I  was  almost  regretful  that  I  had 
come.  There  was  a  raid  on,  and  there  were  Lewis  guns  and  tanks 
and  many  of  the  military  surrounding  the  place  where  they  were 
raiding.  The  citizenry  of  Cork  was  standing  about  in  a  very  quiet 
way,  and  I  believe  that  I  was  the  most  turbulent  person  there  and 
the  most  agitated.  I  rushed  to  the  hotel  and  said,  "Please  give  me 
a  back  room,  so  that  we  will  be  as  far  as  possible  away  from  this 
shooting."  The  lady  said  to  me,  "You  are  not  brave  like  the  women 
of  Ireland.  You  do  not  have  to  suffer  like  this  in  America."  My 
daughter  and  myself  were  given  a  rear  room  on  the  top  floor  of  the 
hotel,  but  there  was  a  window  in  this  room  that  let  out  on  the  side 
street.  The  porter  placed  the  dresser  and  the  large  wardrobe  before 
that  window  as  a  protection  from  stray  shots  that  might  come  down 
that  side  street.  My  little  daughter  seemed  to  be  less  fearful  than 
myself.  Once  or  twice  after  the  curfew  had  been  on  that  night — 
the  curfew  lowers  at  ten  o'clock  in  Cork;  it  had  been  put  on  about 
a  week  before  we  entered  the  town — my  little  daughter  went  to  the 
window  to  look  out,  and  I  called  her  back.  She  said,  "Mama,  there 
is  no  danger  if  you  peek  out  of  the  corner  of  the  window."  We 
then  peeked  out  and  it  seemed  to  me  that  about  a  dozen  soldiers — 
I  cannot  give  the  exact  number — were  halting  men  in  the  side  street. 
I  think  some  of  those  men  escaped  halting,  because  of  the  inter- 
mittent peeks  that  we  gave.  We  watched  those  men:  in  some  way 
they  ran  into  the  side  street  and  escaped  the  military  that  night. 
I  saw  the  military  all  through  the  night  down  that  side  street  as  if 


watching  for  someone.  Needless  to  say,  there  was  very  little  sleep 
that  night,  and  I  almost  forgot  that  it  was  my  mother's  birthplace. 
I  may  say  that  the  next  day  I  started  to  take  a  picture  from  the 
upper  window  of  the  hotel,  where  many  people  were  watching  the 
soldiers  in  the  square  below,  and  a  man  said  to  me — a  man  with 
a  decided  English  accent — 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  were  the  soldiers  doing? 

A.     Preparing  for  a  raid. 

Q.     Would  you  please  describe  this  raid? 

A.  There  were  many  lorries  and  hundreds  of  soldiers  with  their 
guns  at  attention.  Each  squad  of  soldiers  were  pointing  their  guns 
in  different  directions,  so  that  no  angle  was  left  uncovered  by  guns 
and  bayonets.  The  Lewis  guns  were  ready  for  firing,  and  what 
were  called  tanks — I  would  not  have  known  it,  but  they  told  me  it 
was  a  tank  that  was  waiting  there.  The  officers  were  busy  com- 
manding the  soldiers.  And  then  suddenly  they  rushed  into  this 
house  to  raid  it.     What  they  did  inside  this  house  I  do  not  know. 

Q.     A  private  house  or  a  business  house? 

A.  A  business  house,  a  publishing  business,  and  also  a  store- 
house for  groceries. 

Q.     What  did  they  do  on  that  raid? 

A.     I  was  not  inside.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     You  saw  the  soldiers  go  into  that  house? 

A.     Yes,  dozens  of  soldiers  going  in  with  bayonets  at  attention. 

Q.     Did  they  bring  anything  out? 

A.     They  brought  nothing  out. 

Q.     Was  the  house  destroyed  or  burned? 

A.  No,  not  that  day.  It  was  what  one  would  call,  after  seeing 
others,  a  peaceful  raid.  They  were  searching,  I  believe,  for  a  man 
they  did  not  get,  and  for  documents,  according  to  what  was  said  in 
the  papers. 

I  Went  to  take  the  picture  of  this  immense  gathering  of  military 
because  of  the  fact  that  it  was  my  nearest  approach  to  war  in  my 
lifetime.  And  this  man  said,  "My  God,  girl,  if  they  see  you  they 
will  shoot!"  I  said,  "Why  would  they  shoot?"  He  said,  "They 
would  take  that  camera  to  be  something  that  a  Sinn  Feiner  was 
throwing,  and  they  would  shoot."  He  said,  "I  am  an  Englishman, 
and  I  would  not  take  a  picture  of  this  gathering  myself." 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Did  you  see  any  other  raids? 

A.  I  did.  Shall  I  give  you  some  of  the  other  things  I  saw  at 

Senator  Walsh:  Yes,  chronologically. 



The  Witness:  The  nights,  then,  while  I  stayed  in  the  hotel — my 
stays  were  very  brief  in  Cork  because  of  my  extreme  timidity,  but 
I  still  wanted  to  get  in  touch  with  some  of  my  mother's  and  father's 
relatives  because  they  had  long  been  in  America;  so  I  went  back, 
I  think,  four  times  to  Cork — the  people  would  gather  in  the  lower 
parlor,  that  is,  the  parlor  on  the  second  floor  of  the  hotel,  in  order 
to  watch  the  movements  of  the  military  as  soon  as  the  curfew  hour 
approached.  One  could  gather  by  that  whether  the  military  were 
bent  on  any  dread  business  that  night.  At  any  rate,  lights  went 
out  and  at  five  minutes  to  ten  there  was  on  each  night  a  scurrying 
of  bullets  on  the  road  from  Patrick  Street  down  (Patrick  Street  is 
on  the  road  straight  up  from  the  hotel ) — a  scurrying  of  bullets  to 
clear  the  street,  as  near  as  one  could  tell.  In  the  morning  one 
would  read  from  the  papers  that  these  bullets  would  fly  because 
men  would  not  halt,  or  something  of  that  sort.  After  the  first  scurry 
of  bullets  there  would  be  motor  lorries.  Sometimes  they  would 
come  at  a  rapid  pace  through  the  town,  making  a  great  noise. 
Sometimes  they  would  come  in  funeral  style:  first  fifty  soldiers 
advancing,  with  a  slow-moving  lorry  after,  and  then  fifty  more 
soldiers  and  a  slow-moving  lorry,  and  then  at  the  head  of  this 
procession  a  great  searchlight,  which  they  would  throw  onto  the 
top  of  the  buildings.  They  seemed  to  single  out  churches  more 
than  any  other  buildings,  from  what  I  could  see.  One  woman  at 
the  windows — she  was  not  on  the  run,  but  her  husband  was,  and  so 
she  was  stopping  wherever  she  could  get  a  night's  rest,  and  this 
night  she  was  stopping  at  the  hotel — she  was  well-nigh  sick  or 
hysterical  with  fear  because  she  could  not  know  where  her  husband 
was.  And  she  turned  to  an  English  gentleman  who  was  in  the  parlor 
and  said,  "Is  not  this  terrible?  We  can  never  return  to  our  own 
homes."  And  he  said,  "When  I  return  to  England  I  shall  tell  my 
people  that  they  are  waging  war  on  women  and  children  rather 
than  on  men,  for  from  what  I  have  seen,  it  is  doing  more  harm  to 
the  women  and  children  than  to  the  men."  I  turned  to  him  and 
said,  "You  are  an  Englishman?"  "I  am,"  he  said.  "Why  did  you 
come  to  Ireland?"  I  said.  "Just  to  see  the  conditions."  And  that 
is  all  the  conversation  that  occurred  then.  Later  I  said,  "It  is 
frightening  me."     He  said,  "It  is  frightening  everyone." 

Then  we  went  into  the  back  room  and  barricaded  the  door.  On 
each  night  of  our  stay  in  Cork,  there  were  shots  near  or  far  away 
from  our  immediate  room. 



Tien  I  went  to  Bantry,  because  my  daughter  was  named  after 
someone  in  Bantry.  and  I  wished  her  to  see  her  namesake.  I  had 
never  known  or  met  this  woman  before.  On  the  night  I  entered 
Bantry  the  scenes  were  very  terrifying,  and  I  readily  concluded  that 
one  night  was  all  I  could  stand  in  Bantry.  While  in  Bantry  I  talked 
with  the  mother  of  a  little  boy  who  had  been  shot  a  few  nights 
previously.  That  was  about  the  first  week  in  August  that  the  boy 
had  been  shot.  The  mother  was  quite  repressive  on  account  of  the 
disaster  that  had  occurred  in  her  home.  I  cannot  say  her  age,  but 
she  seemed  to  me  a  woman  well  up  in  the  sixties.  She  said  that 
she  had  one  Volunteer  son  who  was  on  the  run,  and  a  little  hunch- 
back boy  who  was  at  home  with  her  and  his  father  on  the  night 
that  the  raid  occurred.  There  were  no  lights  at  night  on  the  streets 
of  Bantry,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  or  the  R.  I.  C. — they  are  dis- 
guised so  that  one  could  not  tell  to  which  body  they  belonged — 
they  knocked  on  the  door.  She  answered  the  knock  with  a  candle 
in  her  hand.  The  soldiers  knocked  the  candle  from  her,  using  an 
electric  light  to  light  them  up  the  stairs.  The  Volunteer  boy  was 
not  at  home.  The  little  hunch-back  boy  ran  from  his  own  room 
into  his  brother's  room.  The  mother  rushed  up  the  stairs  after 
them,  and  was  in  sight  of  the  tragedy  when  it  occurred.  "My  boy's 
hands  were  raised  in  prayer,"  she  said.  "He  was  only  a  little 
hunch-back  and  had  never  done  any  harm  to  anybody.  He  had 
never  done  any  greater  harm  than  trapping  a  rabbit  now  and  then 
to  make  a  few  pennies  to  make  him  feel  that  he  was  in  the  world 
of  the  living.  They  shot  through  his  uplifted  hands;  and  his  mother 
said  that  as  they  shot  he  was  saying,  "My  Jesus,  have  mercy  on  me." 
He  fell  back  as  a  shot  pierced  his  hands,  and  the  men  stepped  close 
to  the  bedside  and  pierced  the  chest  with  three  bullets.  They  then 
left  the  house,  and  they  completed  then  the  raiding  in  that  town. 
Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  old  was  that  hunch-back  boy?- 
A.  I  did  not  ask  his  age,  but  I  should  say  about  fifteen  or 

Q.  This  was  all  related  to  you  by  the  mother?  You  did  not  see 
any  of  it  yourself? 


A.  I  did  not  see  any  of  it  myself.  I  saw  the  ravages  in  the 
town;  and,  strange  to  say,  one  of  the  worst  ravages  in  that  town 
occurred  on  the  home  of  a  Unionist  and  a  man  of  the  Protestant 
faith.     Most  of  the  people  in  the  town  are  of  the  Catholic  faith., 


This  man  had  written  a  letter  about  the  little  hunch-back's  death 
and  the  misconduct  of  the  military  to  the  newspaper,  and  sa  d  he 
also  wished  to  state  in  public  that  there  had  never  been  any  religious 
ill-feeling  in  their  community,  and  that  he  had  always  lived  in  peace 
and  harmony  with  his  neighbors  of  different  faith.  The  next  night 
his  place  was  completely  burned,  and  I  saw  the  ruins  of  it.  There 
Was  scarcely  a  stone  left  upon  a  stone.  I  believe  at  that  time  he 
had  entered  a  report  of  damages  to  the  British  Government  to  the 
extent  of  thirty  thousand  pounds.  It  was  after  making  the  second 
statement  about  the  misconduct  of  the  military  in  that  town  that 
his  home  was  burned.  I  saw  the  place  that  was  set  on  fire.  If  I 
remember  rightly,  his  name  was  Hennissey,  a  man  with  seven  or 
eight  children  in  the  family.  The  house  was  burned  while  all  the 
occupants  were  inside  the  house.  I  asked  if  any  were  burned,  and 
they  said  that  fortunately  all  escaped  over  the  rear  walls  or  through 
the  windows,  and  were  only  bruised  and  cut  a  bit  by  glass. 

The  entire  appearance  of  Bantry  is  of  a  devastated  town  where 
business  is  at  a  standstill.  The  young  men  of  the  town  are  many 
of  them  on  the  run.  They  are  sent  out  from  their  own  homes  to 
other  places,  so  that  the  military  cannot  find  them  when  they  are 
in  search  of  them.  This  cripples  the  industry  of  the  town;  and 
then  the  leading  places  of  the  town  being  burned  and  bombed  has 
crippled  business. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  large  a  place  is  Bantry — three  or  four 

A.  Yes,  more  than  that,  I  think.  It  has  one  long  main  street. 
While  I  was  there,  the  day  I  was  there,  the  workhouse  was  com- 
mandeered by  the  soldiers;  and  the  sisters  in  charge,  the  Sisters  of 
Mercy,  were  given  twenty-four  hours  to  have  all  their  things  taken 
out.  The  poor  and  the  old  people  of  the  town  were  there.  I  think 
there  were  twelve  sisters  in  charge  of  the  institution  ordinarily. 
And  then  all  the  inmates  were  forced  to  leave. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  The  workhouse  in  Ireland  corresponds  with 
the  home  for  the  aged  here? 

A.  Yes;  the  old  and  infirm  and  those  who  have  no  one  to  help 
them.  I  visited  the  town  of  Youghal,  a  seaside  resort,  expecting 
to  have  rest  and  quiet  there.  But  military  lorries  patrolled  the  town 
through  the  day  and  through  the  night,  and  there  was  very  little 
rest  possible.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  destruction,  and  there 
I  witnessed  a  raid  on  several  houses.  They  were  looking  for  boys 
who  were  on  the  run  and  supposed  to  be  in  hiding  there.  I  took 
a  ride  on  the  Blackwater  up  to  Cappoquin,  accompanied  by  my 
niece  and  my  daughter  and  three  of  my  mother's  second  cousins. 


We  were  engaged  on  a  studious  talk  on  that  occasion.  The  girls 
were  speaking  Irish  and  French  to  me.  It  was  an  interesting  gather- 
ing. The  tide  did  not  allow  us  to  return  easily.  We  had  to  oar 
it  all  the  way.  We  had  two  oarsmen  in  the  boat,  and  they  worked 
hard  until  we  reached  Youghal,  about  one-thirty  in  the  morning. 
When  we  reached  the  landing,  military  activities  on  both  sides  of 
the  river  commenced.  The  little  boat  going  down  the  river  made 
them  think,  perhaps,  that  it  was  a  Volunteer  party,  so  that  lights 
were  played  on  the  boat  constantly.  I  was  afraid  they  would  fire 
on  us,  and  I  began  to  sing  "The  Star-Spangled  Banner"  as  well 
as  I  could  sing  it.  I  told  the  girls,  who  had,  perhaps,  a  strong 
Southern  accent,  though  they  speak  a  number  of  languages  with 
equal  fluency,  not  to  speak,  and  I  would  speak  in  my  Yankee  tone. 
So  I  carried  on  a  long  conversation  about  George  Washington. 
Then  we  three  Americans  all  sang  "The  Star-Spangled  Banner," 
and  the  two  oarsmen  pulled  hard  to  reach  the  landing  before  any 
more  signals  were  given  or  lights  played  on  the  boat.  Perhaps  the 
signals  might  be  accounted  for  by  the  fact  that  they  might  have 
thought  we  were  these  boys  on  the  run,  as  they  raided  many  homes 
in  Youghal  the  following  morning. 


I  returned  to  Templemore  mainly  in  the  interests  of  my  religious 
convictions  a  few  weeks  later,  because  there  had  been  reported 
something  like  a  miracle  transpiring  in  Templemore.  On  that 
second  visit  I  saw  the  ruins  of  the  town  hall,  and  talked  to  an  ex- 
soldier  who  explained  that — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Ex-British  soldier,  or  an  Irishman? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  an  Irish  soldier  who  had  served  with  the  British 
forces  in  the  World  War,  and  was  still  badly  crippled.  He  still 
wore  his  uniform.  He  explained  how  the  petrol  had  been  gathered 
from  the  garages  on  the  little  street  facing  the  Square,  and  how  it 
had  been  poured  over  this  building  and  set  fire  to  the  night  before, 
the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  going  through  the  streets 
knocking  at  the  doors  and  calling,  "Come  out,  you  Irish  swine." 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Had  anything  happened  before  this 
in  Templemore?     What  led  them  to  this  attack? 

A.     No,  not  that  I  could  hear  of,  Miss  Addams. 

The  town  hall  was  where  the  people  gathered  for  their  pleasure 
gatherings.  They  poured  petrol  over  it  and  set  fire  to  it;  but  one 
soldier,  in  attempting  to  burn  it,  was  imprisoned  inside,  and  the 
officer  who  was  with  him,  in  trying  to  jump  through  the  window, 
had  his  leg  broken  and  died  two  days  later. 


Then  this  religious  miracle  that  the  people  could  only  explain 
in  one  way  over  there.  It  created  a  spirit  of  friendliness  between 
the  people  inside  the  barracks  and  the  rest  of  the  people.  They 
refused  to  go  on  with  their  work  of  shooting  and  terrorizing.  I 
was  all  through  that  barracks  at  Templemore.  That  was  the  only 
barracks  I  had  a  chance  of  getting  into.  The  windows  were  all 
barred,  and  there  were  large  sacks  around  the  windows,  and  barbed 
wire  around  the  building. 

Q.  But  what  I  wanted  to  get  at  was  what  started  the  military  to 
attack  Templemore? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  could  not  find  anything.  I  only  know 
that  this  second  burning  with  petrol  was  caused  by  the  death  of  the 
officer  who  had  jumped  through  the  window  of  the  burning  building. 
They  warned  the  people  that  if  the  officer  died  the  town  would  be 
razed  to  the  ground.  It  was  at  this  time  that  the  miracle  occurred. 
The  people  of  every  kind  were  immensely  impressed  with  the 
orderly  nature  of  the  thousands  who  poured  into  the  city  to  see  it, 
as  were  the  police  themselves.  The  police  were  not  in  any  way 
able  to  keep  the  thousands  or  tens  of  thousands  of  people  who  came 
into  the  city  in  order,  and  so  the  Volunteers  did  the  work.  The 
Volunteer  who  led  me  into  the  Square,  he  led  me  in  ahead  of  the 
rest  because  I  was  an  American,  and  I  offered  him  a  pound  note 
and  he  said,  "I  am  a  member  of  the  Volunteer  Army,  and  we  are 
not  allowed  to  take  anything  for  acts  of  courtesy,"  so  he  refused 
this  from  me.  At  this  time  they  were  riding  out  to  a  town  named 
Carriheen,  about  seven  miles  from  Templemore.  Everybody  was 
bent  on  going  out  to  this  village,  and  some  of  the  car  drivers  were 
exacting  up  to  seventy  shillings  for  the  trip.  The  Volunteers  fixed 
the  price  at  something  like  thirty  shillings  less,  so  as  to  prevent  a 
very  great  graft  in  carrying  people  this  short  distance.  They  also 
asked  each  vehicle  that  passed  over  the  road  to  contribute  a  very 
small  sum  toward  the  upkeep  of  the  roads  around  the  town,  which 
was  gladly  paid. 

Q.     Did  they  know  the  Volunteers  were  doing  this? 

A.  Yes,  they  knew,  and  the  police  were  helpless.  They  could 
not  do  anything  with  this  crowd  of  people;  there  were  too  many 
of  them.  The  police  would  come  out  and  talk  with  the  Volunteers 
and  say,  "Boys,  keep  the  people  back  from  the  police  barracks." 



I  asked  one  of  the  policemen  inside  of  the  barracks  on  this  occa- 
sion if  he  was  an  Irishman,  and  he  said,  "I  am."  I  said,  "Are  you 
then  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement,  or  are  you  in 
sympathy  with  the  Union  as  heretofore  practiced  in  Ireland?"  He 
said,  "You  must  not  ask  me  such  a  question.  There  may  be  some- 
body listening."  I  said,  "If  you  would  resign  your  position,  what 
would  happen  to  you?"  And  he  said  to  me,  "Miss,  do  you  read 
the  papers?  Do  you  know  that  when  a  policeman  resigns  he  either 
has  to  get  out  of  the  country  at  this  stage  of  the  game  or  else  the 
Black-and-Tans  will  probably  tell  him  that  he  has  done  wrong  in 
a  very  effective  way?"  I  got  very  little  from  that.  I  give  it  to 
you  just  as  he  told  it  to  me.  He  said  the  Black-and-Tans  would 
soon  let  a  man  know  that  he  had  done  wrong  in  quitting  the  force. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  What  kind  of  police? 

A.  The  R.  I.  C.  They  have  to  give  a  thirty-day  notice  to  quit 
the  force.  There  was  one  in  Cork  who  gave  this  notice,  and  im- 
mediately there  was  a  police  murder  in  Cork,  and  the  paper  said, 
"Killed  by  parties  unknown." 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  This  same  policeman  was  killed? 

A.  Yes,  the  same  man.  The  policeman  in  the  barracks  called 
my  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  same  man  was  killed  by  parties 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  get  the  impression  that  the  Black- 
and-Tan  organization  was  independent  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabu- 
lary, and  was  sort  of  a  spy  organization  upon  the  Royal  Irish 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  The  authorities  got  the  impression  that  they  could  not  trust 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  to  do  their  work,  and  so  checked  up 
on  them  by  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  The  two  parties  do  not  get  along  very  well 
in  most  cases.  Inside  the  police  barracks  there  are  usually  several 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  the  Black-and-Tans  became  friendly 
with  the  crowd? 

A.  It  means  all  who  were  in  the  barracks;  because  in  this  bar- 
racks there  were  only,  I  think,  two  Black-and-Tans.  I  remember 
passing  them  when  I  walked  into  the  barracks.  There  was  a  great 
deal   of  respect  shown  by  the  military   in   the  adjoining   military 


barracks,  which  is  quite  distinct  from  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
barracks,  in  the  way  the  Volunteers  handled  the  crowd. 

Q.     Up  to  this  time  there  had  been  no  destruction  in  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  the  town  hall  was  destroyed  the  night  before,  and  they 
were  coming  back  in  case  this  officer  died  to  destroy  the  town.  But 
this  little  boy  had  manifested  some  miraculous  evidences,  and  they 
did  not  destroy  the  rest  of  the  town.  The  crowds  were  largely 
praying  through  the  day  and  the  night,  and  the  officers  looked 
around  at  the  crowds  without  attempting  anything.  I  had  a  front 
room  in  the  hotel,  the  first  time  I  was  brave  enough  to  have  one, 
and  looked  out  at  the  crowds. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  These  crowds  came  out  in  anticipa- 
tion of  the  town  being  destroyed? 

A.  No,  on  account  of  the  miracle.  The  crowds  came  from  all 
parts  of  Ireland  and  England.  I  met  many  people  from  England 
who  had  been  waiting  to  get  into  the  town  from  six  o'clock  in  the 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  The  story  had  gone  out  that  the  miracle 
had  occurred  there  and  the  people  came  from  all  directions  to  see 
about  it? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  it. 


The  main  terror  of  my  experience  in  Ireland  was  in  Gal  way.  I 
had  come  home  late  from  the  Isles  of  Aran,  accompanied  there  by 
a  friend.  I  went  up  to  get  a  paper  from  the  platform  at  the  railroad 
station.  It  was  the  custom  when  the  goods  train  came  in — there 
were  no  passenger  trains  coming  into  Galway — to  have  the  people 
of  the  town  go  up  and  get  the  papers  from  the  train.  They  were 
anxious  to  get  the  news  of  the  condition  of  Mayor  MacSwiney. 
There  was  a  man  on  the  platform  to  whom  I  paid  little  attention, 
and  could  not  give  a  description  of  him  in  a  satisfactory  way.  He 
wore  what  I  think  was  a  loose  cap.  He  did  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  a  regular  soldier,  nor  did  he  seem  to  me  to  be  the  customary 
Black-and-Tan.  There  was  a  woman  on  the  platform  at  the  station 
with  three  or  four  children.  There  was  an  English  officer  on  the 
platform,  and  there  were  many  civilians.  I  turned  my  head  in  this 
direction  (indicating  aside),  and  the  man  in  this  peculiar  uniform 
whipped  out  a  revolver.  He  was  standing  with  another  man  in 
ordinary  attire.  And  he  slashed  the  revolver  around  and  began 
shooting.  One  shot  hit  a  boy  in  the  leg,  and  I  heard  him  call,  "I 
got  it  in  the  leg."  I  ran  then  for  shelter  to  the  door  of  the  hotel, 
and  looked  at  the  woman  running  to  the  British  officer  with  her 


children.  He  seemed  to  be  wholly  engaged  in  keeping  this  woman 
and  children  safe.  I  thought  at  the  time  they  were  his  family,  but 
I  do  not  know  that.  One  of  the  boys  stepped  up  quickly  to  the 
man  who  had  been  shot,  and  then  I  heard  another  shot  ring  out. 
That  boy  was  not  killed  instantly,  but  fell  at  once.  He  later  died, 
and  the  next  day  I  saw  him  in  death.  Then  another  boy  jumped 
from  the  back  and  caught  the  soldier  in  this  way  (indicating  across 
the  body),  so  that  he  had  only  one  hand  free.  And  then  a  harsh 
shot  rang  out  and  this  soldier  fell  to  the  ground. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  fired  the  first  shot? 

A.  This  man  in  a  strange  attire.  He  was  not  dressed  as  a 
Black-and-Tan  that  night.  There  was  perfect  peace,  and  we  were 
all  waiting  for  the  papers,  and  he  whipped  out  the  revolver  and 
began  to  fire. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  was  the  purpose  of  the  shooting? 

A.  That  I  could  not  tell.  The  reason  I  went  to  Galway  was  that 
everything  was  quiet  there.  There  was  no  curfew  there  and  every- 
thing was  quiet. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Could  you  give  any  information  why  a  man 
on  the  station  platform,  without  any  reason — a  Black-and-Tan  or 
anybody  else — would  draw  a  revolver  and  begin  to  fire  shots? 

A.  I  cannot  say.  Unless  there  is  some  actual  damage  done  in 
the  town  by  civilians  or  others,  there  is  no  curfew  law.  And  there 
was  no  curfew  law  in  Galway. 

Q.  So  you  think  that  this  man  was  stationed  there  to  shoot  so 
that  the  curfew  law  would  be  applied  to  Galway? 

A.     That  is  what  has  been  suggested. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  The  man  was  not  insane? 

A.     Not  that  I  know. 

Q.  Could  you  gather  whether  the  man  who  did  the  shooting  was 
an  Englishman  or  an  Irishman? 

A.  He  was  an  Englishman  as  well  as  I  could  gather  from  the 
gathering  of  men  in  the  hotel  immediately  after  the  shooting.  It 
was  what  is  known  over  there  as  a  shoneen  hotel,  where  many 
British  officers  stay.  I  chose  this  hotel  for  my  own  safety.  The 
officers  who  were  there  during  the  day  were  downstairs  with  their 
bathrobes  about  them.  One  man  in  full  civilian  dress,  with  the 
same  sort  of  a  cap  on  him  as  the  man  on  the  outside  had,  stepped 
up  to  a  man  right  at  my  side  and  asked  who  had  been  shot.  He 
said,  "I  don't  know  who  he  was."  And  then  the  other  man  said, 
"Tell  me  how  he  was  dressed."  The  man  by  my  side  described  him 
as  best  he  could,  and  then  the  man  with  the  cap  on  said,  "My  God, 
it   is  my   brother,"   and   dashed   up  the  hotel   stairs.     And   then   in 


about  three  minutes  he  jumped  down  the  stairway  of  the  hotel  and 
hurried  out,  stopping  to  talk  to  no  one  and  pushing  them  in  front 
of  him  very  rapidly. 

Immediately  the  crowd  said  there  would  be  a  raid  this  night.  I 
had  a  front  room  up  to  this  time,  for  I  was  unafraid. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  understood  that  this  man  said  that  the 
Englishman  who  was  speaking  was  a  brother  to  the  man  who  fired 
the  shot  and  was  later  killed? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  to  my  room  and  did  not  undress.  I  threw 
a  loose  coat  about  me  and  lay  on  the  bed,  awaiting  danger.  1  was 
not  asleep.  Presently  I  heard  the  tramp  of  soldiers  approaching. 
I  had  with  me,  I  may  explain,  a  few  letters  from  the  Countess 
Markievicz  introducing  me  to  a  British  general.  General  Barton,  who 
is  now  in  Pentonville  prison,  I  believe. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  General  Barton  the  distinguished  general 
who  did  such  splendid  service  during  the  war.  and  returned  to 
Ireland,  and  was  converted  to  Sinn  Fein? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  now  in  Pentonville  prison. 

Q.     You  had  a  letter  to  him? 

A.  Yes,  I  had  a  letter  from  his  sister,  and  also  two  or  three 
letters  from  a  man  in  Cork  whose  business  was  ruined  and  who  got 
out  this  letter,  and  I  bought  several  of  them  for  souvenirs.  I  also 
had  this  copy  of  Dail  Eireann,  which  was  given  to  me  by  the 
Minister  of  Labor,  Countess  Markievicz.  I  also  had  the  card  of 
Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney  for  a  souvenir.  I  had  nothing  else,  with 
the  exception  of  one  or  two  things  as  souvenirs.  I  had  a  letter  to 
Mrs.  Bryce,  the  sister-in-law  of  our  former  ambassador.  All  of  these 
things  seemed  to  me  to  be  contraband  of  war,  and  I  became  abso- 
lutely terrorized,  thinking  that  any  minute  they  might  connect  me 
with  this  murder  case  and  hurry  me  off  to  prison.  I  could  not  light 
a  light  because,  as  I  looked  outside  the  window,  the  soldiers  were 
immediately  outside  the  hotel  door.  There  seemed  to  be  about  two 
hundred  fifty  of  them,  with  helmets  on  them  and  fully  accoutered 
in  war  clothing.  I  drew  back  in  the  room  and  held  these  papers 
as  if  they  were  absolutely  deadly  instruments  instead  of  mere 
writings.  I  began  to  chew  up  the  Lord  Mayor's  card.  I  was  afraid 
they  would  enter  the  room,  and  the  papers  fell  out  of  my  hand  to 
the  floor  and  I  could  not  see  all  of  them.  I  then  opened  the  door 
and  called  to  the  only  man  whom  I  saw  walking  in  the  corridor. 
I  called  to  him  and  said:  "I  am  ill  and  am  alone,  and  want  you 
to  come  in  and  help  me  gather  some  papers."  He  said,  "What 
papers  are  they?"  I  said,  "They  are  merely  personal  correspond- 
ence.    I  want  to  get  them  out  of  the  way."     He  said,  "Then  destroy 

them/'  I  -aid.  "Yes,  destro)  them,  but  one  cannot  light  a  light  in 
here."  He  said.  •"Follow  me."  I  followed  him  into  the  lavatory, 
and  he  said.  ."Throw  them  into  the  lavatory."  I  said.  "If  the) 
don't  go  down,  and  they  find  them,  what  will  happen  to  me?  Then 
I  will  he  shot."  He  said.  "Give  them  to  me,"  and  tore  them  up  in 
hits  and  got  rid  of  them,  and  then  he  asked  me,  "What  right  have 
you  to  have  them?"  I  said,  "They  are  only  letters."  He  said.  "Do 
not  carry  any  letters  or  even  what  is  printed.  The  law  makes  what 
was  printed  or  written  legally  only  a  few  weeks  ago  a  seditious 
document  now." 

Then  I  went  out  into  the  hall  and  saw  two  British  officers,  and 
said.  "Will  some  of  you  men  come  down?  I  am  alone  back  here. 
This  seems  to  he  war  on  women  more  than  on  men."  The  man  said. 
"^  on  may  go  into  your  room.  There  will  he  nothing  happen  to  you. 
You  are  an  American.  Thev  are  only  taking  reprisals  out  in  the 
street."  I  said.  "What  do  you  mean  by  reprisals?"  He  said. 
"They  are  shooting  some  of  the  townspeople  that  deserve  shooting."' 
The  shootings  continued,  volley  after  volley. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  During  all  this  time  was  there  shooting 
going  on? 

A.  Right  outside  the  door.  ^1  on  could  hear  the  shooting  and 
the  commands  given  to  the  soldiers.  1  went  the  next  morning  to  a 
home  that  had  been  almost  completely  destroyed,  petrol  having  been 
poured  upon  it.  One  of  the  ladies  there  had  just  returned  to  Ireland 
on  a  trip  from  America,  after  fifty  years*  absence.  Her  trunk  was 
burned  in  the  fire.  The  house  had  been  attacked  and  they  had 
broken  the  windows  before  trying  to  burn  it.  The  women  got  out 
to  safety. 

Q.     Why  was  this  house  attacked? 

A.  There  was  a  young  boy  there  named  Broderick  who  was  taken 
out  to  be  shot  because  he  was  a  Volunteer.  He  is  not  dead;  he  is  in 
charge  of  the  military  now,  or  has  escaped.  The  Black-and-Tans 
kept  the  firing  up,  and  then  they  went  to  the  lodgings  of  a  young 
boy  named  Quirk.  His  corpse  was  found  early  the  next  morning. 
There  were  nine  bullet  holes  in  his  body  below  the  waist.  He  was 
taken  to  the  spot  where  the  Black-and-Tan  was  shot,  and  then  he 
was  shot  nine  times  below  the  waistdine,  and  did  not  die  until  three 
hours  later.  He  was  virtually  disemboweled.  There  were  pools  of 
blood  from  the  station  just  across  the  way  clear  across  the  street. 
He  died  at  five  o'clock  in  the  morning.  His  name  was  Quirk,  and 
he  was  on  the  run  from  Cork.  There  were  no  inquests  allowed  in 
these  cases.  At  five  o'clock  in  the  morning  there  was  a  very  great 
sound  of  breaking,  although  the  military  were  returning,  and  I  was 


up  and  dressed  and  out  in  the  hall  to  be  near  the  British  officers 
when  the  bullets  were  flying.  It  was  not  the  return  of  the  military. 
They  were  engaged  in  battering  down  the  only  newspaper  in  the 
town.     It  is  called  The  Galway  Express. 

Q.  Commissioner  Acldams:  Who  was  battering  down  this 

A.  The  Black-and-Tans.  They  battered  clown  everything  in  the 
office.  I  saw  the  office  at  eight  o'clock  the  next  morning,  and  there 
was  not  a  vestige  of  the  machinery  left.  Everything  was  on  the 
floor  in  heaps.  I  saw  the  manager  of  the  place  stooping  down  and 
gathering  up  single  bits  of  type  which  he  saw  on  the  floor.  They 
gathered  up  enough  type  to  get  out  a  special  edition  of  the  paper 
on  a  little  sheet  like  this  (holding  up  copy).  I  would  like  to  read 
you  what  it  says  (reads)  : 

"The  Galway  Express,  Thursday,  September  Ninth.  Special 
Issue.  Price,  one  penny.  The  Murder  of  Innocent  Men.  People's 
Admirable  Restraint  Under  Extreme  Provocation.  Galway  Express 
Premises  Demolished.  An  Unparalleled  Outbreak  of  Crime  Took 
Place  in  Galway  This  Morning." 

The  Witness:  Perhaps  I  had  better  not  read  it.  It  is  all  like 
that.     Only  this  line  (reads)  : 

"While  definitely  charging  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  with  full 
responsibility  for  the  murders,  we  feel  it  incumbent  upon  us  to 
counsel  the  people  of  Galway  to  remain  calm  under  this  terrible 
provocation.  We  regret  that  under  the  circumstances  we  cannot 
make  any  announcement  of  the  exact  date  on  which  we  will  resume 
publication.  Remember,  Galway  men  and  Galway  women,  the 
watchword  is,  KEEP  COOL." 

I  saw  also  the  body,  the  corpse  of  the  young  Volunteer  who  was 
shot  on  the  station  platform.  There  was  one  bullet  hole  clear 
through  his  head. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  May  I  not  ask  you  about  this? 
Is  it  not  the  same  case  that  Dr.  Cotter  told  us  about  yesterday? 

A.  It  is  the  same  case.  I  do  not  think  Dr.  Cotter  was  on  the 
platform.  I  happened  to  be  there  at  the  time.  I  think  he  was  in 
the  hotel. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  the  man  was  running  amuck,  as  we 
say?  Was  he  not  crazy  to  do  that  when  women  and  children 
were  about? 

A.  That  has  happened  in  several  different  towns.  So  there 
must  be  several  insane  men  about. 

Q.  That  could  happen  under  the  abnormal  pressure  of  that 
situation.     But  you  think  that  there  was  no  provocation? 


A.  No.  Galway  was  a  very  quiet  town,  and  there  was  no  provo- 
cation or  there  would  have  been  a  curfew. 

Q.     But  it  might  have  been  done  more  suddenly. 

A.  The  idea,  I  believe,  was  to  provoke  the  people  into  open 
rebellion.     I  imagine  that  from  what  I  have  said. 

In  Limerick  I  had  a  rear  room  in  the  hotel,  and  I  was  awakened 
from  my  sleep  by- the  cries.  "Halt"*  and  "Fire."  I  jumped  from  my 
bed  and  dressed  quickly.  The  same  cry  rang  out:  "Halt,"  "Hands 
Up,"  "Fire."  It  terrified  me.  I  looked  into  the  court  yard  and 
there  was  nobody  there.  Presently  I  opened  my  door  and  called 
for  some  help.  The  lady  clerk  came  and  said,  "Never  mind.  That 
is  a  man  who  was  on  the  run,  and  he  was  caught  and  escaped.  His 
mind  is  a  little  shattered  now,  and  he  is  resting  in  the  next  room. 
He  does  that  now  all  through  the  night. 


I  think  you  asked  me,  Mr.  Walsh,  about  the  amicable  relations 
between  the  Black-and-Tans  and  R.  I.  C? 

Senator  Walsh:     Yes. 

The  Witness:  I  had  the  privilege  of  going  into  a  prison,  and 
while  there,  one  in  the  prison,  not  incarcerated,  told  me  that  they 
had  spent  the  previous  day  in  watching  the  conduct  between  the 
Black-and-Tans  and  the  R.  I.  C,  and  that  there  was  great  disorder 
within  the  barracks  where  they  were  staying  the  day  before,  and 
that  there  was  a  great  deal  of  whiskey  being  drunk,  and  that  caused 
open  rebellion  between  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  Black-and-Tans,  and 
there  was  as  much  fighting  going  on  inside  as  there  was  outside  the 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Are  you  at  liberty  to  name  that  place? 

A.  I  would  not  be  privileged  to  name  it,  because  the  man  whom 
I  mention  is  now  on  the  run,  and  he  was  in  the  prison  as  well  as 
in  the  barrack.  I  could  give  you  intimate  details  of  what  was  going 
on  in  the  barrack. 

I  might  say  that  when  I  reported  to  the  police  on  the  day  when 
Balbriggan  was  devastated,  both  the  policeman  who  took  my  report 
and  the  policeman  who  checked  it  up,  and  the  two  policemen  who 
came  to  look  at  the  American  who  came  in  with  the  passport,  all 
were  strongly  under  the  influence  of  drink.  That  is,  their  eyes 
were  very  bloodshot,  their  faces  very  red,  the  pronunciation  of  their 
words  very  guttural,  and  their  entire  attitude  indicated  it.  The  one 
who  took  my  report  was  a  man  from  England.  He  was  not  dressed 
as  the  other  men.     He  did  not  even  have  on  a  collar,  and  had  his 


shirt  front  tucked  clown  in  careless  fashion,  and  did  not  know 
anything  of  the  places  I  had  visited  in  Ireland,  and  knew  only 
places  in  England  where  I  was  going. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  they  smell   of  liquor? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.     How  many  of  them? 

A.     There  were  five. 

Q.     Where  was  this? 

A.     In  Dublin. 

Q.     What   building? 

A.     The  Strong  Street  Station. 

Q.     Police  station? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  the  police  station  to  arrange  for  your 
itinerary  in  Ireland,  you  met  these  officers  of  the  government,  and 
it  was  while  you  were  talking  with  them  tbat  you  observed  their 

A.      Yes. 

Q.     It  was  about  what  hour  of  the  day? 

A.  About  three  o'clock  in  the  afternoon.  One  had  come  out  of 
a  side  room,  as  if  awakened  from  sleep,  and  he  looked  as  if  he  was 
not  in  any  condition  to  talk  to  anyone. 

Q.     He  was  drunk? 

A.  He  was  not  so  much  drunk  as  in  the  condition  of  emerging 
from  drinking. 


I  may  say  that  in  Limerick  I  went  down  one  whole  street  and 
went  down  both  sides  of  the  street  counting  one  house  after  another, 
and  found  not  one  undevastated  house  in  the  whole  street.  It  wa.« 
the  street  where  the  poor  people  lived,  called  Kerry  Row.  I  asked 
them  about  the  conditions  on  the  day  on  which  their  homes  were 
destroyed,  and  they  all  had  a  pitiable  tale  to  tell.  In  Limerick  the 
Black-and-Tans  are  still  patrolling  the  streets  in  groups  of  eight  to 
ten,  and  lorries  were  passing  down  the  principal  thoroughfares. 
iVfany  homes  were  burned,  and  during  the  night  there  was  a  home 
bombed  and  burned  while  I  Was  there. 

Q.      Did  you  find  any  peaceful  conditions  anywhere  in  Ireland? 

A,.  Let  me  see.  I  think  the  most  peaceful  place  I  found  was  at 

Q.     How  many  places  did  you  visit? 

A.      I  visited,  I  think,  forty  or  fifty  towns  in  Ireland. 


Q.  And  this  was  the  only  place  where  you  found  normal  con- 

A.  The  conditions  were  not  normal  there,  hul  the  conditions 
were  less  terrorizing  than  in  any  other  town  I  visited.  It  is  a  water- 
ing place,  and  there  are  many  English  officers  there. 

Q.     What  is  your  nationality? 

A.     My  father  is  of  English  descent,  and  my  mother,  Irish. 

I  have  here  letters  from  the  Minister  of  Labor  in  Ireland,  show- 
ing the  nature  of  the  laws  as  operated  by  the  Republican  forces. 
This  was  given  to  me  by  the  Countess  Markieviez,  the  Minister  of 
Labor;  it  was  issued  a  few  days  before  I  visited  her.  1 1  shows  how 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     Is  it  printed  in  Gaelic  or  in  English? 

A.     It  is  printed  in  both. 

Q.     Can  you  leave  it  with  us  for  a  few  hours? 

A.      I  can  leave  it. 


I  was  going  to  say  that  I  have  more  to  tell  you  from  Balbriggan. 
I  was  in  the  room  while  the  testimony  was  given.  But  I  went  out  to 
Balbriggan  the  following  day,  the  day  before  Patrick  Lynch  wa> 
killed  in  a  Dublin  hotel.  I  went  out,  but  I  was  so  terrified  by  the 
appearances — it  seemed  to  me  that  hundreds  of  Black-and-Tans  were 
on  the  roads  going  out — wonderful  military  activity.  As  you  ap- 
proached the  town,  you  met  the  people  fleeing,  with  sometimes 
pathetic  amounts  of  baggage  in  their  hands.  Sometimes  they  were 
taking  all  they  had  with  them.  I  met  many  women  with  children 
huddled  about  their  skirts,  fleeing  from  the  town.  1  witnessed  all 
the  burned  buildings  that  have  been  spoken  about  this  morning. 
The  terror  of  the  roads  is  quite  indescribable! 

I  The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.  I 

Senator  Walsh  (presiding)  :  Air.  Hackett,  will  you  be  here  until 
half -past  two? 

Mr.   Hackett:    Yes. 

Senator  Walsh:    We  shall   adjourn,  then,  until   half-pasl   two. 

(1:15  P.  M.) 


(2:35  P.  M.) 

Chairman  Howe:  The  session  will  please  come  to  order.  The 
first  witness  this  afternoon  is  Air.  Francis  Hackett  of  the  Neiv 
Republic.  New   York.      (The  witness  takes  the  stand.  I 


Q.  Mr.  Hackett,  will  you  please  state  your  professional  relations 
and  anything  else  about  yourself  that  you  desire,  as  a  preliminary 
statement  of  fact? 

A.  First  of  all,  I  think  I  had  better  state  that  I  am  an  Irishman 
born.  I  have  been  in  this  country  since  1900.  I  think  I  was  about 
eighteen  when  I  came  here.  And  I  have  lived  here  continuously 
since,  with  the  exception  of  one  year.  I  was  a  year  in  Ireland  in 
1912  to  1913.  I  went  home  for  personal  reasons.  My  father  was 
ill,  and  I  stayed  with  him  as  long  as  he  lived.  Then  I  came  back 
to  this  country  and  became  an  editor  of  the  New  Republic,  and 
stayed  in  this  country  until  last  May.  My  wife,  Miss  Toksvig,  and 
myself  went  then  to  England  and  then  to  Denmark  for  five  weeks, 
and  reached  Ireland  in  July, — towards  the  end  of  July,  and  stayed 
there  until  the  end  of  September.  We  were  then  eight  weeks  in 
Ireland.  I  went  to  Ireland  for  two  reasons:  one  was  to  see  my 
own  people,  and  the  other  was  to  write  a  few  articles  for  the  New 
York  World  and  to  make  an  investigation  as  much  all  over  the 
country  as  possible  under  the  circumstances.  As  I  said,  we  stayed 
there  for  eight  weeks,  going  over  the  ground  in  the  south  and  north 
and  west  of  Ireland,  and,  of  course,  in  Dublin  a  great  deal. 

Q.     How  much  country  did  you 

cover : 

A.  I  should  say  we  covered  roughly  about  two-thirds  of  the 
country.  We  went  to  my  home  town,  which  is  a  small  place,  Kil- 
kenny. We  went  from  Kilkenny  to  Waterford,  and  from  Waterford 
to  Drogheda,  and  from  Drogheda  to  Cork,  and  to  Kerry  for  a  few 
days,  and  then  to  Limerick,  and  then  to  Dublin,  and  then  to  Bel- 
fast, and  then  to  Galway,  and  back  to  Dublin  and  Kilkenny;  and 
then  we  spent  several  days  in  Londonderry  before  we  sailed. 

Q.  All  this  time  you  were  gathering  material  for  the  work  you 
were  doing  for  the  New  York  World? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.     And  you  are  also  the  author  of  a  book  on  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 


When  I  went  home  in  1913  I  was  particularly  interested  in  the 
economic  conditions  in  Ireland.  I  thought  that  the  Irish  question 
was  largely  a  democratic  economic  question, — the  question  of   the 


struggle  of  lower  classes  to  come  up.  In  other  words,  the  very 
much  same  sort  of  struggle  that  was  going  on  in  England,  but  com- 
plicated by  the  fact  that  the  ruling  class,  the  shell,  was  not  only 
different  economically  but  also  different  racially.  I  made  up  my 
mind  while  I  was  there  to  collect  all  the  material  1  could  that  bore 
on  that  subject,  and  then  to  write  a  book  on  Ireland  after  my  return 
to  America.  At  first  I  thought  of  calling  the  book  "What  America 
Could  Teach  Ireland."  I  thought  there  was  a  great  deal  to  be 
learned  from  this  country  in  practical  ways  as  far  as  education  was 
concerned,  as  far  as  self-help  is  concerned,  the  organization  of 
laborers,  the  organization  of  educational  bodies,  and  that  sort  of 
thing.  I  did  not  get  the  book  completed  until  the  war  came  on,  and 
a  lot  of  preconceptions  that  I  had  about  the  possibilities  of  self-help 
and  the  unimportance  of  politics  went.  I  became  convinced  that  it 
did  matter  what  political  relations  you  had  and  what  the  sover- 
eignty of  a  country  was.  After  we  went  into  the  war,  I  determined 
that  since  Ireland  was  a  small  nation  in  the  same  sort  of  plight  with 
a  great  many  other  small  nations,  I  made  a  great  effort  to  get  out 
my  book.  And  I  got  out  this  book,  which  is  about  four  hundred 
pages,  in  1914.  I  got  it  out  because  I  came  to  believe  that  the  thing 
that  the  Irish  had  to  do  was  to  get  a  working  relationship  in  Ireland, 
and  in  order  to  do  so  they  must  have  a  measure  of  self-government 
in  Ireland.  At  the  time  I  believed  that  the  best  measure  they  could 
get  was  a  measure  of  dominion  home  rule.  I  wrote  the  book  with 
that  as  a  conclusion;  the  helpful  thing  for  Ireland  was  not  to  get 
an  economically  workable  solution  like  the  Home  Rule  Bill  of  1914, 
but  an  economically  workable  solution  like  the  Dominion  Acts  of 
Canada  and  Australia  and  South  Africa.  In  1919,  after  observing 
the  situation,  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that  the  British  were  not  in 
a  position  to  give  the  Irish  that  solution.  There  was  no  prospect 
for  a  solution  along  this  line;  that  the  real  vitality  in  Ireland  was  a 
vitality  that  demanded  a  different  solution — a  solution  along  the 
lines  laid  down  by  President  Wilson  for  the  squaring  of  the  troubles 
on  the  continent  of  Europe.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  who  came  to  this 
country  in  1919,  asked  me  if  I  would  be  the  representative  for  a 
new  paper  he  was  about  to  start  called  The  New  Statesman.  I  made 
up  my  mind  that  it  would  be  against  the  will  of  the  majority  of  the 
Irish  people  to  advocate  the  solution  he  represented,  and  I  deter- 
mined to  publish  a  new  edition  of  my  book  stating  that  the  Irish 
problem  solution  was  to  give  the  Irish  the  same  sort  of  autonomy 
that  the  American  Republic  achieved  in  1776.     In    1914  I  wrote  in 


the  New  Republic  that  the  English  were  taking  a  course  of  action 
that  any  Englishman  would  see  was  leading  to  an  armed  crisis. 
Certainly  it  was  apparent  to  any  man  who  had  studied  the  Irish 
situation  that  something  like  that  was  bound  to  occur. 

When  I  went  to  Ireland,  I  went  not  only  to  investigate  the  facts, 
but  also  to  interpret  them.  I  saw  the  situation  very  like  the  situation 
in  Finland  that  we  have  long  been  familiar  with;  like  the  situation 
in  Bohemia,  the  Jugo-Slav  situation,  the  Schleswig  situation,  the 
Armenian  situation,  the  Alsace-Lorraine  situation, — the  situation  of 
a  people  that  had  long  been  imperialized  struggling  to  get  for 
themselves  conditions  of  self-development  that  they  could  not  get 
without  a  new  constitution, — a  new  constitution  that  they  only  could 
hope  to  get  by  securing  independence.  I  was  very  instructed  in  that 
field  by  the  attitude  that  we  ourselves  took  in  this  country  toward 
similar  struggles.  On  my  paper,  the  New  Republic,  we  had  two 
members  of  our  staff  who  went  to  work  for  the  United  States  Gov- 
ernment after  we  went  into  the  war  in  1917,  and  their  particular  job 
was  this:  they  went  into  Military  Intelligence,  and  they  were  dis- 
patched by  our  government  to  England.  And  there  they  worked  out 
in  conjunction  with  certain  Englishmen  a  policy  by  which  they 
would  get  information  over  to  the  Czecho-Slovaks,  who  were  fight- 
ing for  Austria,  by  which  they  would  persuade  the  Czecho-Slovaks 
not  to  fight  for  Austria  but  to  desert  the  cause  of  Austria,  and  to 
assert  their  own  legitimate  claims  to  freedom  by  deserting  Austria. 
I  bring  this  point  in  for  this  purpose:  everything  depends  in  these 
situations  of  nationalism  on  what  you  mean  by  law  and  order  and 
what  you  mean  by  lawlessness.  When  a  man  like  Sir  Roger  Case- 
ment, for  example,  went,  to  the  Irish  soldiers  who  were  in  the  British 
army  and  said  the  same  thing  to  them  that  the  editors  of  the  New 
Republic  said  to  the  Czecho-Slovaks  by  sending  them  similar  mes- 
sages tied  to  balloons  that  were  timed  to  come  down  at  the  right 
time  and  in  the  right  places,  Sir  Roger  Casement  was  tried  and  exe- 
cuted for  treason  for  that  sort  of  propaganda.  But  we  of  the  United 
States  saw  that  justice  for  Czecho-Slovakia  and  other  small  nations 
on  the  continent  of  Europe  meant  that  they  could  not  be  free  unless 
they  broke  away  from  an  empire  that  was  sacrificing  them. 


I  conceived  that  there  was  some  such  sort  of  situation  in  Ireland, 
and  in  order  to  interpret  the  facts,  one  had  to  find  out  what  one 
meant   by   law   and  order.      And  I   went   to   Ireland  to   answer  two 


questions  for  myself:  1  was  told  in  London  that  the  Irish  were  kill- 
ing police,  and  that  the  Irish  were  being  lawless,  and  that  the  law- 
lessness was  in  the  hands  of  a  band  of  young  men  who  were  not 
responsible,  and  that  that  lawless  situation  in  Ireland  must  be  met 
with  force. — by  the  use  of  military  force.  I  was  told  by  certain 
Englishmen  in  conversation  that  that  was  the  real  interpretation  ol 
the  Irish  situation.  The  manager  of  Cook's  bank  in  London  told 
me  that  that  was  the  true  solution  of  the  Irish  situation.  I  met  an 
old  man  on  the  street  whose  bag  I  carried  (although  at  first  he  was 
a  bit  sceptical  and  thought  I  might  be  a  pickpocket,  yet  he  final  I  y 
did  take  a  chance,  for  the  bag  was  heavy),  and  he  told  me  that  that 
was  the  solution  of  the  Irish  question.  I  found  that  that  was  the 
general  idea  in  England;  on  the  one  hand,  a  band  of  extremists  who 
were  excitable  and  did  not  know  what  they  wanted  and  who  were 
killing  the  police  who  were  striving  to  maintain  law  and  order;  and 
on  the  other  hand  a  band  of  noble,  heroic  police  seeking  to  suppress 
this  lawlessness.  And  I  went  to  Ireland  to  find  out  if  that  was  the 

I  have  been  here  for  two  days  and  heard  the  testimony  of  various 
kinds  covering  what  happened  in  Dublin  and  Thurles  and  Balbrig- 
gan,  and  perhaps  I  could  help  out  if  I  stated  other  facts. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  would  like  to  have  you  state  whether  you 
found  those  facts  general  in  Ireland,  and  also  tell  what  you  think 
should  be  done. 

Senator  Walsh:  May  I  interrupt  you  to  inquire  about  your  re- 

A.  May  I  tell  you  exactly  what  my  religion  is?  I  was  born  in 
the  Roman  Catholic  Church.  I  have  a  brother  in  the  clergy  who  is 
now  stationed  in  Limerick,  who  is  a  hot  Sinn  Feiner.  but  who,  din- 
ing trouble  in  Limerick,   saved  the   lives   of  three  English    officers. 

Q.  I  do  not  want  to  be  personal  at  all,  but  I  want  to  weigh  your 
evidence  by  way  of  your  religious   convictions. 

A.  I  formed  a  newr  religion  when  I  came  to  this  country.  I  am 
a  man  of  religious  feeling,  but  1  am  a  member  of  no  church.  I  have 
not  been  inside  a  church,  except  for  curiosity,  for  twenty  years. 

Q.  Did  you  have  Sinn  Fein  sympathies  when  you  went  to  lie- 

A.  I  have  always  sympathized  with  Sinn  Fein  as  an  aspiration. 
I  have  never  believed  it  was  practicable  until  1919.  In  1919,  when 
Sir  Horace  Plunkett  asked  me  to  be  the  representative  of  his  paper. 
I  had  to  make  a  choice,  and  1  decided  that  Sinn  Fein  was  practical. 


and  was  the  only  healthy  moral  thing  for  the  Irish  to  act  upon. 
They  really  wanted  independence,  in  my  belief,  and  they  had  to  be 
honest  with  themselves.  There  was  no  use  saying  they  wanted  a 
half-measure  when  they  wanted  independence. 

Senator  Walsh:  Excuse  the  interruption.  I  merely  wanted  to 
get  the  background. 


The  Witness:  First,  when  I  went  into  Ireland  I  found  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary.  They  were  invented  by  Peel  in  1820.  There 
was  trouble  in  Ireland  a  hundred  years  ago  just  as  there  is  today, — 
trouble  in  Cork  and  Belfast  and  Dublin  and  elsewhere.  The  gov- 
ernment was  authorized  by  Peel  to  put  the  military  into  Ireland. 
If  you  made  a  chart  of  the  police  stations  in  Ireland,  you  would  find 
that  if  you  had  a  gridiron  with  spaces  ten  miles  square  and  covering 
Ireland,  you  would  find  a  police  station  in  the  center  of  each  space 
of  the  gridiron.  Sometimes  the  police  stations  are  in  hamlets  of  a 
few  homes,  and  sometimes  in  a  town  like  Kilkenny  you  will  find 
forty  or  fifty  policemen.  The  number  of  policemen  in  Scotland  is 
about  three  to  four  thousand.  In  Ireland  there  are  from  thirty  lo 
forty  thousand  police.  In  population  the  two  countries  are  about 
the  same  size:  Scotland  has  4,700,000  and  Ireland  4,300,000.  Ire- 
land, then,  has  ten  times  as  many  police  to  the  population  as  has 
Scotland.  And  this  in  time  of  peace  when  crimes  like  manslaughter 
and  murder  have  always  been  less  in  Ireland  than  in  Scotland.  The 
police  were  put  in  Ireland  for  a  political  purpose.  They  were  really 
the  advance-guard  of  imperialism.  They  were  there  not  because 
there  was  work  for  them  to  do,  but  because  there  might  be  work 
for  them  to  do,  largely  in  regard  to  public  opinion.  Three-fourths 
of  the  police  are  Catholics,  but  the  men  were  picked  for  other  rea- 
sons. Oxford  and  Cambridge  men  were  preferred  for  the  police. 
The  police  were  always  semi-armed,— bayonets  on  their  belts  and 
batons.  And  they  always  had  in  the  barracks  carbines,  and  were 
drilled  by  the  military  in  the  barracks  yards.  They  were  recruited 
from  the  Irish  peasantry.  If  the  farm  could  not  support  two  or 
three  men  in  Kerry  or  Tipperary  or  Cork,  the  boy  would  go  into  the 
police.  It  was  never  looked  upon  as  a  very  desirable  occupation, 
but  if  there  was  no  work  to  do  on  the  farm,  the  boys  would  go  into 
the  police. 



After  1916  and  the  uprising  in  Dublin  a  new  situation  occurred 
with  regard  to  the  police  that  is  very  important  to  grasp.  When  the 
rising  took  place,  it  only  took  place  in  Dublin  and  in  Galway.  But 
it  was  firmly  believed  that  there  were  plans  for  a  rising  all  over 
Ireland.  The  week  after  the  rising,  troops  were  brought  into  Ire- 
land. They  poured  into  the  country  in  great  numbers.  There  were 
a  thousand  in  Kilkenny.  The  military  immediately  got  into  touch 
with  the  police  and  said:  "Who  are  the  people  here  who  are  sus- 
pected of  being  Sinn  Feiners,  or  people  of  independent  opinion,  or 
dangerous  people?"'  The  head  constable  in  my  own  town  of  Kil- 
kenny gave  a  list  to  the  military  of  people  who  had  ever  given  him 
any  trouble  of  any  kind.  In  that  little  town,  over  fifty  young  men 
were  deported,  young  men  who  belonged  to  Sinn  Fein  and  others 
who  believed  in  the  Republican  movement  philosophically.  It  was 
a  philosophical  belief  rather  than  an  armed  program.  About  two 
thousand  people  were  deported  from  Ireland  to  detention  camps  in 
England.  Those  men  went  with  a  certain  feeling  toward  the  police, 
and  then  when  they  came  back  they  were  down  on  the  police  books 
as  radicals  and  dangerous  men.  And  then  the  fight  for  conscription 
began  in  Ireland,  and  it  became  necessary  to  make  a  case  out  for 
conscription  and  also  for  the  attitude  of  Ireland  in  regard  to  Ger- 
many. And  so  the  discovery  was  made  that  there  was  in  Ireland  a 
German  plot.  In  1917  the  Irish  convention  was  called  by  Lloyd 
George,  and  there  was  an  amnesty.  And  in  1918  there  were  a  large 
number  of  men  arrested  and  kept  in  England  without  trial  for  about 
ten  months  and  then  released.  In  1917  and  1918  the  police  became 
very  anxious  in  Ireland  about  the  people  in  case  they  should  resist 


It  was  particularly  important  because  there  was  a  contrast  in  the 
treatment  between  the  people  in  the  south  of  Ireland  and  the  people 
in  the  north  of  Ireland.  If  I  may  dwell  on  this  question  for  about 
three  minutes  I  think  it  will  illuminate  the  attitude  of  the  Irish 
people  toward  law  and  order.  In  1913  when  I  was  home  there  was 
a  rebellion  going  on  in  Ireland  of  a  very  respectable  character.  It 
was  headed  by  Lord  Londonderry,  Lord  Willoughby  de  Broke,  the 
Duke  of  Abercorn,  Sir  Edward  Carson,  Lord  Birkenhead,  General 


Hackett  Payne,  who  is  now  the  military  commander  in  Ulster,  and 
a  large  number  of  other  gentlemen  from  the  House  of  Lords  in 
England,  and  other  persons  who  might  be  called  by  an  unsym- 
pathetic person  members  of  the  Junker  class.  These  men  had  or- 
ganized rebellion  against  the  British  Government  because  there  was 
in  process  of  being  passed  by  Parliament  a  Home  Rule  Bill  for  Ire- 
land; the  point  of  this  rebellion  by  these  gentlemen  Junkers  was 
that  Ulster  was  to  be  brought  under  the  Home  Rule  bill,  and  thev 
did  not  want  that  to  be  brought  about.  They  wanted  Ulster  inde- 
pendent. A  projected  independence  for  Ulster  was  arranged  by  Sir 
Edward  Carson,  and  a  virtual  revolution  declared  in  1914.  Machine 
guns  and  rifles  were  imported  from  Germany,  and — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Before  autumn  of  1914? 

A.  Late  in  1913  and  early  in  1914.  This  effort  to  bring  arms  to 
Ireland  was  going  on  all  the  time,  and  was  very  successful  because 
the  military  authorities  did  not  try  to  stop  it. 

Q.  You  began  to  utter  the  sentence  that  the  British  officers  ab- 
sented themselves  from  the  docks,  and  by  their  absence  allowed  the 
revolutionists  in  the  north  of  Ireland  to  receive  arms  and  munitions 
from  Germany,  did  you  not? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  Who  were  the  leaders  in  this  movement  in  the  north  of  Ire 

A.  The  leaders  were  Sir  Edward  Carson,  Mr.  Bonar  Law,  F.  E. 
Smith,  who  is  now  Lord  Birkenhead,  Lord  Chancellor  of  England. 
Lord  Londonderry,  who  is  now  dead,  and  various  members  of  the 
House  of  Lords.  The  chief  recruiting  officer  of  that  lot  in  London 
was  Lord  Roberts.  They  raised  large  sums  of  money.  They  raised 
five  thousand  dollars  for  Red  Cross  wrork — at  least  they  raised  it  on 
paper.  They  had  a  huge  parade  in  Belfast  that  was  attended  by 
newspaper  reporters  from  all  over  the  world;  also  by  reporters  from 
Germany,  who  wanted  to  see  how  big  the  revolution  was  going  to  be. 

Q.     What  was  the  organization  called? 

A.  The  Ulster  Volunteers.  By  the  way,  I  must  point  out  that  at 
this  time  there  was  a  Liberal  government  in  England.  The  Liberal 
government  almost  got  to  the  point  of  arresting  Sir  Edward  Carson; 
but  it  was  recently  disclosed  by  Colonel  Reppington  in  his  biography 
of  the  war  that  when  the  arrest  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  brought 
up  by  the  Liberal  government,  the  King  absolutely  prohibited  the 

I  to 

0.     What  was  the  charge  against  him? 

A.  Treason  against  the  Crown.  Sir  Edward  Carson  said:  "There 
is  no  need  to  inform  me  that  what  I  am  doing  is  anarchy.  I  know 
it."  And  he  was  very  well  informed  ahout  it.  for  he  knew  that  the 
British  army  would  not  move  against  Lister.  Orders  were  given  to 
troops  to  move  from  Kildare  to  I  lster.  and  they  refused  to  move. 
Certain  resignations  were  taken  from  the  army  on  that  occasion. 
One  of  the  resigners  was  Lord  French,  who  is  now  Lord  Lieutenant 
of  Ireland:  also  General  Hackett  Payne,  who  was  then  recruiting 
for  the  army,  and  is  now  in  command  of  the  government  troops  in 
Munster.  You  might  not  remember  that  some  months  later  Sir 
Edward  Carson  was  put  into  the  British  Cabinet. 


The  young  men  in  the  south  of  Ireland  said:  "Now  the  north  ol 
Ireland  is  armed.  We  have  never  been  allowed  to  have  arms  in  the 
south  of  Ireland,  except  for  Held  sports, — shotguns  and  so  forth." 
Permits  were  given  by  the  local  authorities,  the  resident  magis- 
trates, for  sporting  guns  and  rifles. — I  imagine  to  shoot  rooks  with, 
and  things  like  that.  The  lists  of  people  who  had  such  guns  were 
known  to  the  police,  and  usually  hung  up  in  the  post-office.  They 
were  usually  rich  people.  The  people  of  the  south  of  Ireland  made 
up  their  minds  that  if  the  north  of  Ireland  were  to  be  armed,  that 
they  were  to  be  armed  too.  Perhaps  it  was  a  reprehensible  thing, 
from  my  humanitarian  point  of  view,  a  very  bad  thing;  but  perhaps 
it  was  human.  The  moment  the  south  of  Ireland  began  to  import 
arms,  the  government  moved.  The  last  day  of  August,  1914,  a 
yacht  brought  arms  to  a  place  called  Howth  outside  of  Dublin,  and 
landed  arms  to  a  body  called  the  National  Volunteers.  The 

Q.      Senator  Walsh:     The    British  troops? 


A.  The  British  troops  and  the  police  were  sent  to  intercept  those 
arms,  and  they  failed  to  get  there  in  time  to  intercept  them.  Thev 
came  back  to  the  city  of  Dublin  from  Howth.  a  seven  miles"  walk. 
The  people  came  out  from  the  terrible  slums  of  Dublin,  and  I  think 
they  must  have  jeered  at  the  soldiers.     Some  said  they  also   threw 


stones.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  feeling  against  the  soldiers.  The 
soldiers  fired  into  the  crowd  and  killed  four  and  wounded  about 
sixty.  This  was  in  the  week  before  the  declaration  of  war  against 
Germany.  The  young  Sinn  Fein  men  who  were  running  the  three 
or  four  papers  that  were  allowed  to  be  published  said:  "This  is  the 
beginning  of  the  end  in  Ireland.  Blood  has  been  shed  by  the  Brit- 
ish soldiers."  There  was  an  inquest  after  this  killing  that  was  a 
whitewash.  The  regiment  was  moved  away.  The  young  Sinn 
Feiners  said:  "We  have  no  sympathy  with  the  war  to  be  fought  by 
men  who  have  just  been  killing  civilians  on  the  streets  of  Dublin 
with  only  very  slight  provocation." 


Then  you  have  got  the  situation  developing  in  1916  and  the  use 
of  the  police  for  political  purposes.  They  were  used  to  root  out  all 
the  young  men  of  advanced  ideas,  and  in  many  cases  the  women, 
and  to  put  all  those  who  had  any  idea  of  freedom  for  Ireland  in 
the  place  of  criminals.  You  got  a  contrast  all  the  time  there  be- 
tween the  heroes  of  Poland  and  the  people  of  Czecho-Slovakia  and 
the  people  in  Schleswig  and  Finland  and  Alsace-Lorraine  who  had 
no  part  in  this  war, — who  were  going  to  be  given  their  freedom; 
the  contrast  between  them  and  the  people  of  Ireland,  who  had  simi- 
lar claims  and  who  were  regarded  as  criminals. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  For  the  sake  of  the  record,  will  you  state 
how  far  and  to  what  extent  the  Home  Rule  Bill  had  reached  at  the 
outbreak  of  the  war? 

A.  There  was  no  dominion  home  rule  bill.  There  was  pending 
a  bill  to  give  Ireland  a  sort  of  qualified  home  rule. 

Q.  That  bill  was  accepted  by  Redmond  and  that  party,  but  not 
acceptable  to  the  Ulsterites? 

A.  Yes,  not  acceptable  to  the  Ulsterites.  It  had  passed  the  House 
of  Lords,  and  the  King  was  to  sign  it  on  September  14,  1914.  He 
signed  it,  and  it  was  to  become  law  for  Ireland.  But  a  compromise 
was  reached  by  which  it  was  to  be  held  up  and  not  become  law  until 
an  amendment  was  passed  making  some  provision  for  Ulster. 

Q.     How  can  a  bill  that  had  been  passed  and  signed  be  held  up? 

A.  Senator  Walsh,  the  British  constitution  is  an  unwritten  docu- 
ment, depending  upon  the  interpretation  of  lawyers.     The  idea  was 


that  they  had  suspended  this  law  for  one  year,  and  that  this  amend- 
ment was  to  be  made. 

Q.  The  bill  was  enacted,  but  the  administrative  forces  refused, 
or  by  agreement  did  not  provide  machinery  to  carry  it  out? 

A.  Exactly.  That  is  the  legal  situation.  The  bill  has  since  been 
repealed.  As  part  of  the  Home  Rule  Bill  now  before  the  House  of 
Commons,  this  Home  Rule  Bill  is  to  be  repealed. 

Q.  Was  it  apparent  that  during  all  that  time  in  1914  that  this 
bill  was  to  be  passed  by  the  House  of  Lords? 

A.  The  bill  was  never  passed  by  the  House  of  Lords.  But  in 

Q.  Yes,  I  know.  It  was  passed  twice  by  the  House  of  Commons, 
which  made  the  action  of  the  House  of  Lords  unnecessary. 

A.  Yes,  in  1910  a  Veto  Bill  was  passed  that  if  the  House  of 
Lords  rejected  a  bill  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  twice,  it 
could  be  passed  over  their  heads. 

The  people  say  in  Ireland:  Do  you  want  Dominion  Home  Rule 
in  Ireland?  They  say:  Suppose  we  do  agree  to  accept  Dominion 
Home  Rule,  and  that  bill  is  introduced  in  the  House  of  Commons, 
and  it  is  then  passed  after  many  amendments  to  it.  It  then  goes  to 
the  House  of  Lords,  and  is  rejected.  It  is  then  passed  by  the  House 
of  Commons  and  given  back  to  the  House  of  Lords,  and  is  then 
rejected.  Then  many  amendments  are  made,  and  it  then  goes  back 
to  the  House  of  Lords.  And  then  it  is,  after  four  years,  again  really 
enacted  by  the  Commons  and  goes  to  the  King  for  his  signature, 
and  afterwards  put  on  the  statute  books.  And  then  there  will  be 
other  details  and  delays  until,  they  say,  perhaps  bv  that  time  our 
great  grandchildren  will  be  interested  in  it.  And  they  say:  We 
have  no  interest  in  a  Home  Rule  Bill  along  those  lines. 

When  I  went  to  Ireland  I  went  to  get  an  answer  to  these  ques- 
tions: Is  it  true,  as  they  say  in  London,  that  the  Irish  are  killing 
policemen,  and  that  the  Irish  who  are  killing  policemen  are  a  small 
band  of  extremists?  I  went  all  over  the  ground  that  we  heard 
covered  this  morning.  It  seems  to  me  that  what  was  said  is  per- 
fectly in  accord  with  the  facts. 


Now,  I  went  to  a  number  of  places  in  Ireland,  first  of  all  with 
the  preoccupation  of  finding  out  the  facts  about  military  rule:  how 
far  does  military  rule  exist  in  Ireland?  I  tried  first  of  all  to  find 
out  how  many  troops  were  there  in  Ireland.     It  is  generally  be- 


lieved  that  the  number  of  troops  in  this  country  would  be  three  to 
four  hundred  thousand. 

Senator  Walsh:  Before  the  war  about  one  hundred  fifty  thou- 
sand.    Our  new  bill  provides  for  much  more  than  that. 

The  Witness:  In  Ireland,  which  is  a  country  of  four  million 
three  hundred  thousand  people,  the  British  government  said  there 
were  about  fifty  thousand  troops.  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith,  the  acting 
president  of  the  Irish  Republic,  said  he  could  prove  there  were  one 
hundred  thirty  thousand  troops  stationed  in  Ireland.  In  addition  to 
those,  there  were  around  thirty  thousand  of  the  Irish  police,  less 
about  one  thousand  that  had  resigned,  plus  about  a  thousand  re- 
cruited Black-and-Tans  who  had  the  status  of  sergeants  and  a  large 
body  of  Black-and-Tans  who  came  in  with  the  ordinary  status  of 
constable, — perhaps  six  or  seven  thousand.  So  you  got  in  all  a 
body  hovering  around  one  hundred  fifty  thousand,  as  large  as  the 
ordinary  peace  establishment  in  the  United  States,  which  has  a 
population  of  one  hundred  million;  that  is  to  say,  twenty-five  times 
as  many  per  person  as  would  normally  be  here  before  the  war. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  That  was  true  when  you  left? 

A.  Before  I  left  I  saw  Arthur  Griffith,  late  in  September.  I 
need  not  tell  you  that  it  is  impossible  to  find  out  from  the  British 
Government  how  many  troops  there  are  in  Ireland.  They  convert 
homes  and  public  buildings  of  all  sorts  into  barracks,  so  that  it  is 
impossible  to  tell  how  many  there  are.  Before  the  war  Ireland  was 
a  great  training  ground  for  British  troops, — perhaps  twenty-five 
thousand  always  in  training  there. 

I  am  just  trying  to  give  the  first  crude  aspects  of  British  rule. 
Perhaps  it  would  be  more  interesting  to  the  Commission  if  I  an- 
swered questions  which  would  be  given  rather  than  relate  my  own 


Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  think  it  would  be  interesting  to 
know  how  many  policemen  were  killed. 

A.  I  wanted  to  find  out  why  the  policemen  were  killed  and  how 
many  were  killed.  The  numbers  given  in  the  British  House  of  Com- 
mons are  about  one  hundred  twenty  killed  during  the  last  few  years 
in  Ireland.  The  situation  may  be  illuminated  if  I  hand  in  a  pam- 
phlet called  "The  Two  Years  of  British  Atrocities  in  Ireland."  That 
is  the  pamphlet  compiled  by  the  Sinn  Feiners  giving  the  numbers 
of  civilians  killed  in  Ireland  before  a  single  policeman  was  killed 


in  Ireland.  In  1910  no  policeman  was  killed  in  Ireland.  Ab  I 
understand  it,  in  1917-1918  there  were  about  a  dozen  murder- 
charged  to  the  police  and  about  twenty  thousand  raids,  a  number 
of  wrhich  are  detailed  here,  the  suppression  of  newspapers,  and  so 
forth,  all  of  which  you  have  heard  described. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  All  of  this,  as  T  understand  it.  was  before 
the  killing  of  any  police  officer? 

A.  \es.  sir,  previous  to  the  killing  of  any  police.  Then  :he 
killing  of  police  began.  Sometimes  they  have  been  ambushed  and 
killed.  On  one  occasion  a  policeman  was  killed  going  into  chapel 
to  mass.  On  another  occasion  a  policeman  has  been  killed  on  patrol 
formation.  On  one  occasion  a  patrol  came  into  contact  with  a 
small  group  of  armed  Sinn  Feiners.  They  fired,  and  fell  back  into 
a  ditch,  and  the  young  Sinn  Feiners  returned  the  fire.  These  police- 
men were  killed  fighting.  Some  policemen  have  resigned  from  the 
force  and  then  been  killed.  One  was  killed  at  Oranmore  in  Sep- 
tember after  he  had  resigned. 

Q.  Is  it  the  intimation  that  the  police  officer  who  resigns  and  is 
killed  is  killed  by  the  British  authorities,  or  by  the  Sinn  Feiners? 

A.  That  i*  rather  interesting.  I  have  never  heard  that  imputa- 
tion until  today.  But  I  can  give  the  case  specifically  where  Black- 
and-Tans  have  called  at  the  home  of  a  man  who  has  resigned  and 
have  brought  him  out  of  his  home  and  flogged  him  mercilessly.  So 
that  that  explanation  seems  to  me  to  be  plausible.  On  the  other 
hand,  I  heard  of  this  case,  where  the  policeman  wa*  killed  by  mis- 

So  I  went  to  the  Sinn  Feiners  and  said:  "Why  are  these  police 
killed?  Why  was  Allan  Bell  killed  in  Dublin,  that  old  magis- 
trate?" Certain  Sinn  Feiners  said:  "Oh,  it  is  all  done  by  impetuous 
young  people."  But  as  I  got  down  into  contact  with  responsible 
men,  they  said, — many  of  them  said:  "This  killing  of  policemen  is 
a  necessary  act  of  justice.  As  far  as  we  know,  no  policeman  has 
been  killed  who  has  not  been  tried.  If  a  policeman  commits  mur- 
der or  something  similar  to  murder,  he  is  given  a  trial  without  him- 
self being  present,  and  he  is  punished."  I  asked  for  instances,  and 
I  was  given  the  instance  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain.'  I  was  told  by 
several  Sinn  Feiners — it  may  be  folklore  but  I  give  it  for  what  it 
is  worth — I  was  told  by  responsible  men  that  the  policemen  who 
killed  or  carried  out  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were 
numbered;  that  one  was  killed  on  his  way  into  a  chapel  in  Cork,  ami 
three  more  had  been  killed  around  Cork;  and  that  another  remained 
to  be  killed,  and  that  his  name  was  Swanzy,  and  that  he  had  left 


Cork  to  go  to  Lisburn;  and  a  few  weeks  later  policeman  Swanzy 
was  killed  as  he  was  going  out  of  church  in  Lisburn.  And  in  re- 
taliation the  Orangemen  of  Lisburn  set  fire  to  the  Catholic  section 
and  did  damage  to  the  extent  of  two  or  three  hundred  thousand 
dollars.     That  I  give  you  as  an  instance  of  a  police  murder. 

Q.  The  Sinn  Feiners  declare  that  they  had  a  trial  and  heard 
testimony  and  were  satisfied  that  these  police  had  committed  the 
murder  of  Mayor  MacCurtain,  and  that  they  had  pronounced  the 
death  sentence  against  them? 

A.  Exactly.  I  went  to  see  a  very  splendid  young  man  whom  I 
would  not  wish  to  identify  because  it  would  be  dangerous  for  him, 
but  a  man  in  a  very  responsible  public  position,  and  I  asked  him 
about  the  killing  of  police.  I  asked  him,  "Why  did  they  kill  Wilson 
in  Wexford?"  And  he  said,  "That  man  was  a  proper  ruffian,"  and 
he  gave  me  a  number  of  instances  of  things  that  this  man  had  done 
which  seemed  criminal  and  brutal  in  his  life.  And  I  said,  "Do  you 
know  any  other  instances  of  men  like  that  who  have  been  killed?" 
And  he  said,  "Most  of  the  men  who  have  been  killed  have  been 
guilty  of  murder."  And  I  said,  "Do  you  know  of  any  other  instances 
in  your  district?"  And  he  said,  "A  young  man  works  for  me,  and 
he  said  the  other  day  when  he  came  in,  T  have  seen  the  policeman 
in  town  who  killed  my  brother,  and  I  am  going  to  kill  him.'  "  And 
his  employer  said:  "You  are  a  member  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  and 
you  mean  to  say  that  you  are  going  to  take  the  law  into  your  own 
hands?  You  know  the  proper  course  to  pursue.  If  you  have  any 
charge  to  make  against  that  policeman,  you  know  where  to  send  it 
and  you  know  what  action  will  be  taken."  He  prevailed  upon  the 
young  man  to  get  out  of  the  way  of  the  police;  and  the  police  got 
wind  of  the  fact  that  this  particular  policeman  was  identified,  and 
he  left  town.  By  these  instances  you  get  a  practical  illustration  of 
the  fact  that  the  men  who  have  tried  to  break  down  the  will  of  Sinn 
Fein,  to  break  clown  the  will  of  the  Irish  as  expressed  in  two  elec- 
tions, have  not  succeeded.  And  you  inevitably  get  a  clash  between 
these  men  and  the  Sinn  Feiners — the  Irish  Volunteers. 


The  English  policy  in  this  question  is  very  important.  The  Eng- 
lish maintain  that  they  are  holding  up  law  and  order  in  Ireland. 
They  maintain  that  all  these  instances  that  you  have  heard  about  in 
the  last  two  days  are  instances  to  be  explained  by  rational  proc- 
esses, and  that  they  stand  for  law  and  order.     The  results  of  my 


investigation  are  this:  the  English  maintain  that  they  are  standing 
for  law  and  order,  and  that  the  Sinn  Feiners  are  a  band  of  extrem- 
ists; but  at  the  same  time  they  are  pursuing  a  policy  of  provocation 
and  assassinations  and  murders,  and  make  no  effort  whatever  to 
bring  to  book  those  members  of  their  organization  who  commit 
murders  and  assassinations,  and  are  making  every  effort  to  throw 
the  onus  of  disorder  and  lawlessness  on  Sinn  Fein;  that  Sinn  Fein, 
on  the  other  hand,  wishes  to  have  peace  in  Ireland,  to  have  their 
own  government  perfected,  but  are  constantly  running  into  the  law- 
lessness and  oppression  of  the  old  police,  the  Black-and-Tans,  and 
the  military  in  Ireland. 

And  I  would  like,  if  I  may,  in  relation  to  this  to  show  the  sequel 
to  the  Balbriggan  affair  as  brought  out  today.  I  made  no  investiga- 
tion in  Balbriggan  myself.  I  made  an  investigation  in  Gal  way  and 
Dublin.  But  the  sequel  in  Balbriggan  is  this:  I  wish  to  quote  Sir 
Hamar  Greenwood,  the  British  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland,  on  the 
subject  of  Balbriggan  and  the  inquiry  into  Balbriggan.  There  was 
an  effort  made  to  get  the  House  of  Commons  at  the  end  of  October, 
two  weeks  ago — no.  I  guess  about  three  weeks  ago, — to  appoint  a 
commission  to  investigate  and  find  out  what  actually  happened  at 
Balbriggan.  And  the  House  of  Commons  voted  to  refuse  this  move. 
They  declined  to  appoint  a  commission  to  investigate.  But  the 
phrases  that  illumine  the  state  of  mind  of  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood 
are  important.  He  said :  "I  admit  that  nineteen  houses  were  de- 
stroyed and  others  damaged;  that  four  public  houses  were  destroyed, 
and  one  hosiery  factory  that  employs  two  hundred  hands  was  also 
destroyed.  I  admit  it  is  difficult  to  defend  the  destruction  of  that 
factory."  And  he  was  asked  if  two  men  were  not  also  killed.  He 
said:  "Two  men  were  also  killed."  And  Sir  Arthur  Balfour  said: 
"Murder!"  And  he  said:  "If  the  right  honorable  gentleman  gets 
any  satisfaction  out  of  it,  I  would  say,  murder."  He  admitted  that 
the  murder  was  not  the  act  of  irresponsible  men,  that  it  was  organ- 
ized ;  that  it  was  the  work  of  men  who  went  from  a  barrack  seven 
miles  away;  and  he  said:  "I  have  myself  made  an  inquiry  into  this 
case,  and  I  will  tell  the  House  what  I  have  found:  that  some  hun- 
dred to  one  hundred  fifty  men  went  to  Balbriggan  to  avenge  the 
murder  of  a  comrade  murdered  in  cold  blood;  and  I  find  that  it  is 
impossible  out  of  those  one  hundred  fifty  men  to  find  out  who  did 
the  deed,  who  did  the  burning;  and  I  have  had  the  most  careful  pos- 
sible investigation  made."  In  other  words,  the  British  Government 
is   confronted   with   a  situation  not  dissimilar   to   that   which   con- 


fronted  President  Roosevelt  at  Brownsville.  But  where  President 
Roosevelt  took  the  regiment  who  were  there  and  investigated  and 
carried  out  the  results  of  this  investigation,  the  British  Government 
says:  We  know  the  regiment  that  went  there,  and  we  know  that  they 
burned  down  nineteen  houses  and  killed  two  men,  and  all  this;  but 
we  are  not  able  to  push  it  further.  Therefore,  nothing  will  be  done 
about  what  was  done  at  Balbriggan. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Who  is  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood? 

A.  He  is  that  member  of  the  British  Cabinet  responsible  for  Ire- 
land.    He  is  the  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland. 

Q.  And  this  was  the  speech  he  made  in  the  House  of  Commons 
when  a  motion  was  made  to  have  an  investigation  made  of  Bal- 
briggan ? 


A.  Exactly.  And  my  object  in  bringing  that  up  is  this:  that 
while  nominally  England  stands  for  law  and  order  in  Ireland,  they 
are  really  out  to  crush  what  they  think  is  revolution ;  and  when  they 
run  into  something  that  they  think  does  not  fit  into  the  categories 
of  democratic  government  and  decency,  they  simply  say  that  they 
are  powerless,  and  decline  to  carry  out  an  investigation, — such  an 
investigation  as  would  be  carried  out  in  any  other  civilized  country 
where  there  was  an  established  government.  Thirty  creameries  have 
been  burned  down,  and  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  was  confronted  with 
the  evidence  of  the  burning  down  of  these  creameries;  that  uniformed 
men  have  gone  out  in  lorries;  that  they  have  been  seen;  and  they 
have  burned  down  the  creameries.  And  he  is  unable  to  act  because 
he  has  seen  no  evidence:  "I  have  never  seen  a  tittle  of  evidence  to 
prove  that  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  have  destroyed  creameries." 
Well,  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  and  Mr.  George  Russell  have  tried  to  put 
evidence  in  his  hands  that  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  have  de- 
stroyed creameries.  I  think  it  would  make  it  clear  if  I  might  read 
a  letter  written  by  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  on  the  twenty-sixth  of 
October:  "Both  Houses  of  Parliament  and  the  public  have  been 
completely  misled  as  to  the  destruction  of  creameries  and  other 
property  of  cooperative  societies  in  Ireland,  and  in  all  seriousness 
I  am  compelled  to  charge  the  Government  with  suppression  of  the 
truth.  During  the  past  six  months  a  correspondence  upon  this 
subject  has  been  carried  on  between  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organ- 
ization Society  and  myself,  as  its  President,  on  the  one  hand,  and 
the  civil  government  and  the  military  authority  in  Ireland  on  the 


other.  On  Wednesday  last,  in  the  reprisals  debate  in  the  Com- 
mons, Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  selected  out  of  this  mass  of  letters  a 
single  extract  from  a  letter  of  his  own  to  me.  In  this  extract  he 
deplored  and  condemned  'these  outrages,'  promised  to  try  and 
prevent  them,  and  to  punish  those  responsible.  He  adverted  to 
'the  outstanding  difficulty  .  .  .  that  the  sufferers  have  been 
unable  or  unwilling  to  come  forward  with  evidence,'  and  invited  me 
to  provide  it.  He  then  told  the  House  that  he  had  'never  seen  a 
tittle  of  evidence  to  prove  that  the  servants  of  the  Crown  had  de- 
stroyed these  creameries.'  This  morning  I  was  told  by  a  distin- 
guished member  of  the  House  of  Lords  that  Lord  Curzon  had  on 
the  same  day  made  an  identical  statement — of  course,  from  the 
material  supplied  to  him.'  He  quoted  the  same  extract  from  the 
official  correspondence,  and  then  gave  it  as  'a  curious  corroboration' 
of  the  innocence  of  the  servants  of  the  Crown  that  I  had  failed  to 
supply  'evidence  of  any  sort.' 

"Space  forbids  the  production  in  your  columns  of  the  evidence 
in  the  possession  of  the  Government,  partly  from  the  records  of  their 
own  courts,  partly  furnished  by  us.  It  will  suffice  here  to  say  that 
the  unfortunate  victims  of  these  outrages  have  only  one  means  of 
proving  their  loss.  They  have  to  bring  suit  under  the  Malicious 
Injuries  Acts  before  the  County  Court  Judge  at  Quarter  Sessions. 
If  the  judge  is  satisfied  that  the  injury  is  malicious,  even  if  it  is 
proved  beyond  all  possibility  of  doubt,  as  it  was  in  a  trial  which  I 
personally  attended,  that  servants  of  the  Crown  destroyed  the  prop- 
erty, he  has  to  charge  the  amount  of  compensation  awarded  (in 
this  case  £12,349)  on  the  rates.  In  other  words,  the  victims  of  the 
outrages,  and  other  innocent  persons,  have  to  pay  for  damage  in- 
flicted upon  the  community  by  the  guardians  of  the  law. 

"Everybody  in  Ireland  knows,  and  the  Government  knows,  that 
these  acts  are  deliberate  reprisals  by  servants  of  the  Crown.  Unless 
discipline  has  hopelessly  broken  down,  the  Government  could 
easily  identify  the  criminals.  It  is  scandalous  that  for  lack  of  this 
identification  such  a  crying  injustice  should  go  unredressed.  We 
have  asked  for  an  open  and  impartial  inquiry  in  Dublin,  where 
witnesses  can  be  protected.  To  say  that  this  would  be  a  mere  con- 
flict of  perjury  is  untrue  as  regards  the  evidence  we  are  ready  to 
produce,  and  is  not  complimentary  to  the  peace  officers  of  the  Gov- 
ernment. Redress  in  this  case  is  urgently  demanded  far  more  on 
account  of  the  position  and  influence  of  the  agricultural  cooperative 
movement  in  Ireland  than  for  the  direct  and  indirect  restriction  in 
food  production,  which  is  no  light  matter.  As  I  write,  a  telegram 
reaches  me  reporting  the  burning  of  vet  another  oreamerv." 


The  Witness:  I  would  like  to  leave  this  letter  to  show  the  situation 
they  are  in  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Just  give  us  that  citation,  please. 

A.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  writing  to  the  London  Times,  printed 
on  the  twenty-sixth  of  October  of  this  year.  There  is  an  editorial 
on  the  same  subject  in  this  issue  of  The  Irish  Homestead,  which 
reprints  the  letter,  by  George  W.  Russell. 


There  is  evidence  that  there  is  justice  going  on  in  Ireland  from 
the  Irish  side.  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  himself  said  that  courts  are 
going  on  in  Ireland  conducted  by  the  Irish  people.  Not  so  much 
can  be  said  for  the  Government  courts  in  Ireland,  even  where  they 
have  not  been  superseded  by  courts  martial.  In  the  north  of  Ire- 
land, a  man  found  with  a  revolver  is  fined  two-and-six-pence  or 
three  shillings.  But  in  the  south  of  Ireland  I  have  found  no  case 
where  a  man  found  with  arms  is  given  less  than  two  years'  im- 


Worse  than  the  assertion  that  the  courts-martial  have  the  full 
confidence  of  the  Irish  people  are  the  constant  assertions  that  the 
British  Government  is  working  in  Ireland  in  the  interests  of  the 
whole  people.  I  would  like  to  give  you  the  analysis  of  the  vote 
in  1918  and  in  1920  to  bring  out  the  point  whether  the  de  facto 
government  of  Sinn  Fein  has  the  confidence  of  the  people  or  has 
not.  I  think  this  material  is  absolutely  trustworthy  and  very  closely 
analyzed.  It  shows  that  the  Sinn  Fein  party  secured  nearly  75  per 
cent,  of  the  seats  on  the  county  councils  at  the  last  election. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  election  is  this? 

A.  June,  1920.  The  total  number  of  county  council  seats  in 
Ireland  is  given  as  699.  Of  those  county  council  seats,  Sinn  Fein 
secured  71.9  per  cent.;  Sinn  Fein  and  Labor,  who  work  together, 
secured  between  them  80  per  cent.  Putting  in  with  them  the  Ulster 
Nationalists,  who  can  be  put  in  as  believing  in  self-government  for 
Ireland,  the  number  of  seats  won  is  84  per  cent.2     Of  course  that 

1  The   death  penalty   may   now   be   imposed   for   possession   of   arms   or 

2  Of  the  699  seats,  612  were  won  by  candidates  opposed  to  union  with 
England,  and  87  seats  were  won  by  Unionists. 


is  not  unanimity-  I  personally  found  no  unanimity  in  Ireland  on 
the  subject  of  Sinn  Fein.  But  what  I  did  find  was  this:  that  all 
the  class  of  Unionists  in  the  south  of  Ireland  that  were  descended 
from  the  landlord  class,  and  who,  until  the  question  of  landlordism 
had  been  settled  in  favor  of  peasant  proprietorship,  had  been  all 
dead  against  independence,  I  found  that  these  men  were  now  all 
in  favor  of  home  rule.  In  the  Irish  Times  for  September,  a  con- 
servative paper.  I  found  at  least  two  hundred  letters  from  very 
conservative  gentlemen  saying  that  independence  was  the  only  way 
out.  If  you  desire,  I  can  get  a  collection  of  those  letters,  because 
it  seems  to  me  that  they  are  real  evidence  of  opinion  in  the  south 
of  Ireland.  Those  gentry  constitute  the  magistrates  and  the  upper 
class,  so  to  speak.  The  great  majority  of  these  people  have  resigned 
from  their  offices,  men  like  Sir  Henry  Grattan  Bellew,  Sir  Algernon 
Coote,  Sir  Thomas  Stafford,  and  other  men,  a  list  of  whom  I  can 
give  you.  These  men  are  all  deputy  lieutenants.  These  men  all 
resigned  while  I  was  in  Ireland.  And  when  I  was  in  Dublin,  there 
was  a  conference  of  six  hundred  men  and  women  of  this  particular 
class  of  Unionist  persuasion  who  came  together  to  plead  for  do- 
minion home  rule.  Lord  Shaftesbury,  a  prominent  Ulsterman,  also 
pleads  for  dominion  home  rule. 

Q.     And  until  recently  these  men  were  all  against  it? 

A.  While  these  men  were  all  landlords,  their  interests  were  all 
against  home  rule.  But  now,  since  they  have  settled  down  in  Ire- 
land, their  interests  are  with  the  people.  Many  of  them  have  said 
to  me  they  had  just  as  soon  have  Sinn  Fein  government  as  not. 
Many  of  them  go  to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts.  A  big  merchant  in  Cork, 
called  J.  C.  Dowdall,  who  had  just  come  back  from  a  delegation 
that  had  gone  to  Lloyd  George — 

Q.     What  nationality? 

A.  A  Cork  Protestant  Irishman.  He  told  me  that  a  relative  of 
his  had  for  months  tried  to  get  a  land  settlement  from  the  British 
Government  and  had  failed;  and  in  a  few  weeks  he  got  the  whole 
question  settled  by  the  Sinn  Fein  courts.  Many  of  them  have  gone 
to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts  to  get  them  justice,  and  in  many  cases  the 
courts  have  leaned  backwards  to  give  them  justice. 

Here  is  a  list  of  county  councils  and  urban  councils  and  other 
bodies  that  have  declared  their  allegiance  not  to  Britain,  but  to 
Dail  Eireann.  And  I  will  put  in  here  the  analysis  of  the  vote  in 
1918,  the  object  of  which  is  to  show  that  Sinn  Fein  is  not  a  small 
body  of  extremists,  but  is  80  per  cent,  of  the  people  of  Ireland, 
who  have  so  declared  themselves  in  the  election  of  1918,  and  have 
reiterated  that  decision  in  the  elections  of  1920. 


Q.  What  per  cent,  of  the  county  councils  have  renounced  alle- 
giance to  the  British  Government  and  are  now  doing  business  with 
the  Sinn  Fein  government? 

A.     I  think  all  the  county  councils  outside  Ulster. 

Q.     How  many  is  that? 

A.  There  are  thirty-two  altogether,1  and  outside  of  Ulster  I 
think  that  twenty-six  have  submitted  themselves  totally  to  the  Sinn 
Fein  government. 

Q.  Of  the  total  number  of  town  councils  and  urban  councils  and 
county  councils,  and  all  the  bodies  chosen  by  the  people  to  manage 
their  affairs,  how  many  now  recognize  British  authority? 

A.  I  think  that  outside  the  six  or  four  counties  in  the  northwest 
of  Ulster  there  are  practically  no  public  bodies  in  the  south  of 
Ireland  that  recognize  the  British  Government.  But  there  are  mi- 
nority representatives  who  believe  in  the  British  Government  on  a 
great  many  of  these  bodies — men  of  property  who  still  believe  that 
the  Sinn  Fein  policy  is  not  desirable. 

I  do  not  seem  to  have  succeeded  anywhere  in  giving  evidence  on 
military  rule,  and  I  would  like  very  much  to  go  ahead  on  whatever 
lines  you  would  suggest. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  have  been  in  the  north  of 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  industries  there?  In  other 
words,  in  the  north  of  Ireland  there  are  great  textile  industries. 
Have  you  investigated  anything  among  the  workers  there — what  the 
standard  of  living  is,  under  what  conditions  the  women  work,  and 
are  there  any  labor  unions  there,  and  what  influence  is  brought  to 
bear  by  the  large  employers  upon  these  workers  to  keep  them  di- 
vided on  religious  prejudices  and  to  keep  them  from  organizing 
into  industrial  organizations?  Do  you  know  anything  about  any 
of  these  questions? 

A.  I  think  I  know  something.  Yes,  I  went  in  Belfast  to  one  of 
the  factories,  and  had  a  long  talk  with  the  employer,  and  I  have 

1  While  there  are  32  counties  in  Ireland,  there  are  33  county  councils, 
Tipperary  being  divided  into  North  and  South  constituencies.  Of  the  nine 
counties  in  Ulster,  only  four  (Antrim,  Armagh,  Derry,  and  Down)  elected 
a  majority  of  Unionist  councillors.  None  of  the  24  county  councils  outside 
of  Ulster  went  Unionist.  In  fact,  of  the  510  seats  on  these  councils,  only 
three  were  won  bv  Unionists, 


studied  to  a  certain  extent  government  reports  on  the  condition 
of  industries  in  Belfast.  I  think  it  is  generally  admitted  that  the 
standard  of  wages  in  Belfast  is  especially  low,  because  in  house- 
holds the  men  usually  work  in  the  shipyards  and  in  higher  branches 
of  the  textile  industry,  and  the  women  work  in  very  low  occupa- 
tions: and  the  Belfast  employer  looks  upon  the  joint  wage  in  appor- 
tioning wages.  L  p  to  a  very  few  years  ago,  the  women  employed 
in  Belfast  seldom  wore  boots.  There  are  very  many  bad  factories. 
There  are  also  some  good  factories.  But  the  trade-union  situation 
is  very  complicated,  because  the  lower  wages  are  usually  paid  t<» 
the  Catholic  workers,  and  when  the  Catholic  worker  becomes  a 
foreman,  any  non-Catholic  worker  who  wishes  to  raise  the  religious 
issue  can  raise  it  and  make  it  impossible  for  the  Catholic  workman 
to  be  regarded  as  a  union  man.  And  that  has  been  constantly  done 
with  British  unions.  A  very  serious  situation  was  created  in  July 
when  the  Protestant  workers  drove  out  a  number  of  Catholic  work- 
ers up  to  five  thousand,  and  not  only  drove  them  out,  but  burned 
their  homes;  and  in  a  very  short  time  fifty-six  people  were  killed 
on  the  streets  of  Belfast. 

Q.     How  long  ago  was  that? 

A.  That  was  in  July  and  August  of  this  year.  I  think  my  wife 
will  tell  you  more  on  the  labor  aspect.  There  is  no  doubt  that  the 
religious  issue  has  been  kept  alive  by  the  employers  to  keep  trade 
unionism  from  growing  in  Belfast.  It  has  been  a  red  herring  across 
the  trail  of  the  labor  situation,  and  constantly  labor  organizers  like 
James  Connolly,  who  worked  in  Belfast,  have  been  up  against  this 
situation.  It  is  kept  alive  continually  by  the  newspapers  and  the 
sermons.  I  think  there  are  more  political  sermons  in  Belfast  than 
anywhere  else  in  the  world.  Practically  all  the  sermons  in  Belfast 
are  political  sermons.  And  that  is  a  very  bad  situation  for  the 

Q.      Belfast  is  not  very  well   organized? 

A.  Belfast  is  not  very  well  organized.  The  Transport  Workers 
are  the  strongest  union  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Are  they  in  Belfast? 

A.  I  do  not  think  they  are  in  Belfast.  I  am  not  well  informed 
on  that  point.  But  wages  in  Belfast  are  very  low  in  comparison 
to  similar  wages  in  England. 

Q.     And  what  are  housing  conditions  among  the  workers? 

A.  The  housing  conditions  are  good  because  ground  rents  are 
very,  very  low,  and  they  have  built  a  vast  number  of  one-story 
houses.  There  is  no  congestion.  It  is  a  new  city  which  has  been 
built  up  in  small  houses,  so  that  there  is  no  slum  problem  as  there 


is  in  Dublin,  where  twenty  thousand  families  live  in  single  rooms — 
one-third  of  the  population  of  Dublin  live  in  twenty  thousand 
rooms!  Sometimes  families  of  ten  or  twelve  people  live  in  one 

Q.     And  what  is  the  standard  of  living  in  Belfast? 

A.  The  standard  of  living  is  fairly  low,  considering  the  good 
housing.  I  think  it  is  a  squalid  city.  It  is  like  some  of  the  Cana- 
dian towns,  I  would  say;  it  is  in  a  state  of  early  capitalism. 

Q.     What  is  the  general  morale  of  the  place? 

A.  The  Belfast  Chamber  of  Commerce  is  one  of  the  most  reac- 
tionary bodies  whose  pronouncements  I  have  ever  read.  The  Dub- 
lin Chamber  of  Commerce  is  very  much  better.  Although  in  regard 
to  labor,  I  must  say  that  the  Dublin  Chamber  of  Commerce  showed 
up  very  badly  when  I  was  home.  In  relation  to  that  may  I  say  this: 
although  there  is  a  very  bad  situation  in  regard  to  the  social  struggle 
in  Ireland,  still  Irish  labor  outside  of  Belfast  is  all  for  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.     In  Belfast  what  is  the  situation? 

A.  In  Belfast  labor  is  opposed.  Of  course  you  have  to  take 
Catholic  labor  and  Protestant  labor  separately.  In  the  British 
House  of  Commons  there  is  a  member,  Mr.  Joseph  Devlin,  elected 
by  labor  as  a  Labor  representative.  He,  of  course,  has  stood  for 
Irish  independence.  There  is  a  gradual  tendency  on  the  part  of 
Labor  to  get  together.  The  whole  fight  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  and 
his  group  is  to  keep  the  religious  question   elevated. 

When  the  question  came  up  in  regard  to  what  part  of  Ulster  is  to 
be  excluded  from  the  Home  Rule  Bill,  they  did  not  put  in  the  three 
counties  of  Ulster  that  had  a  majority  of  Catholics,  or  the  four 
manufacturing  counties  where  labor  might  get  together,  but  rather 
the  two  agricultural  counties  where  there  might  be  enough  farmers 
who  had  an  interest  against  labor,  to  go  into  the  Ulster  Parliament. 

Q.  After  all,  the  religious  differences  in  Ireland  are  primarily 
political  and  economic? 

A.  I  think  the  religious  differences  in  Ireland  are  clearly  politi- 
cal and  economic,  and  that  the  theological  basis  is  practically  nil. 

Commissioner  Maurer:   That  is  what  I   think. 

The  Witness:  I  do  not  think  that  those  who  conduct  the  religious 
agitation  in  Belfast  do  know  very  much  about  the  theology  of  Rome, 
or  care  very  much.  But  they  must  have  a  difference,  and  if  they 
did  not  have  this  difference,  they  would  have  a  difference  on 
whether  people  were  brachycephalic  or  dolichocephalic. 

Q.  What  is  the  religious  situation  between  the  Protestants  and 
Sinn  Feiners? 

A.     There  is  practically  no   difference.     The  two  have  merged 


when  the  question  was  taken  out  of  the  control  of  special  interests. 
Some  of  the  most  prominent  men  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  are 
Protestants.  There  is  Lieutenant-Commander  Erskine  Childers. 
Robert  Barton,  who  is  also  a  Protestant,  is  a  member  of  the  Sinn 
Fein  cabinet.  I  stayed  in  Dublin  with  a  prominent  Protestant  who 
is  also  a  Sinn  Feiner.  I  met  Dr.  Kathleen  Lynn,  who  is  also  a 
Protestant,  who  had  been  sentenced  to  death  in  connection  with  tin' 
1916  uprising;  and  I  think  several  women  who  were  with  her  were 
also  Protestants.  1  met  many  Protestants  who  were  prominent  in 
Sinn  Fein.  There  is  no  active  religious  feeling  in  the  south  of 
Ireland.  In  my  section  of  the  county  the  Catholics  are  95  per  cent.. 
and  they  elected  a  man  as  chairman  of  the  county  council  who  was 
a  Protestant.  Among  the  Catholic  bishops,  among  the  hierarchy, 
there  is  a  great  difference  of  opinion  upon  politics,  just  the  same 
difference  of  opinion  you  would  find  among  any  group  of  men 
anywhere.  That  is  to  say,  I  think  Catholic  traders  would  show  as 
many  people  against  any  change  in  government  and  against  Sinn 
Fein  as  would  Protestants.  That  is  to  say,  I  think  the  attitude 
follows  economic  lines  rather  than  religious. 


One  piece  of  evidence  in  regard  to  labor.  There  was  a  conven- 
tion of  the  Irish  Labor  Party  in  Cork  about  the  first  of  August, 
and  the  conclusion  of  that  convention  was  as  follows: 

"We  are  fully  aware  of  the  gravity  of  the  issues  involved  in  this 
conflict.  We  are  challenging  not  only  the  right  of  an  imperial 
power  to  subjugate  a  small  nation  by  armed  force,  but  we  are  also 
challenging  the  generally  accepted  conception  of  the  relations  be- 
tween employer  and  employed.  Railway  companies,  backed  by  the 
Government,  contend  that  the  workman's  duty  is  simply  to  obey 
orders,  to  carry  any  materials  that  may  be  handed  to  him,  irrespec- 
tive of  the  use  to  which  these  materials  may  be  put — in  other  words, 
that  the  workman  is  part  of  a  system,  of  a  piece  of  machinery;  he 
is  not  a  responsible  agent.  The  worker's  contention,  on  the  other 
hand,  is  that  when  he  knows  that  he  is  being  used  for  a  purpose 
against  which  his  soul  revolts,  he  would  be  violating  his  conscience 
if  he  were  to  agree  to  be  so  used.  This  contention  involves  a  claim 
that  the  workman  is  a  responsible  human  being — not  a  cog  in  a 
machine;  that  he  is  a  conscious  cooperator  in  the  work  in  which 
he  is  engaged,  and  has  a  right  to  decide  whether  or  not  he  will 
participate  in  the  work  according  to  whether  its  purpose  is  worthy 
or  degrading.     Such  a  conception  of  industrial  relations  is  doubtless 


revolutionary,  but  it  is  the   conception   which   shall   prevail   in   the 
Irish  Commonwealth  of  the  future." 

This  had  to  do  with  the  refusal  of  the  Transport  Workers  to 
handle  munitions,  and  with  the  refusal  of  the  railway  firemen  and 
engineers  to  run  trains  that  were  carrying  soldiers  on  military 
expeditions  in  Ireland.  The  Government,  which  now  has  control 
of  the  railroads,  is  now  determining  to  close  down  railroad  traffic 
in  Ireland  and  to  prohibit  motor  traffic  more  than  twenty  miles  from 
the  home  of  the  owner  of  the  motor.  This,  of  course,  applies  only 
to  civilians.  The  situation  that  is  being  brought  about  in  Ireland 
is  that  of  a  blockade.  That  situation  labor  has  tried  to  keep  off. 
Labor  also  called  a  two  days'  general  strike  on  account  of  the 
hunger  strikers  in  Mountjoy  prison.  They  were  successful  in  that 
strike  in  showing  where  labor's  sympathies  were.  The  Government 
would  like  decidedly  to  close  down  the  railroads  on  account  of  the 
munitions  situation.  It  is  probable  that  Ireland  will  be  deprived 
of  railroads  within  the  next  two  weeks.  It  has  already  been  de- 
prived of  freedom  of  the  press. 


The  situation  is  rapidly  coming  to  a  climax  between  this  great 
nation  and  this  small  people:  the  efforts  of  England  to  keep  up  the 
illusion  that  it  is  standing  for  law  and  order  in  Ireland  while  it  is 
working  to  break  down  the  morale  of  the  people  of  Ireland  by  the 
destruction  of  homes,  the  burning  of  factories  and  creameries,  the 
cutting  off  of  railroads,  and  the  killing  of  prisoners,  before  the 
world  gets  to  learn  the  truth  about  these  conditions  and  thus  be 
delivered  from  the  illusion  that  law  and  order  is  being  maintained. 
So  you  have  a  race  between  the  patience  and  endurance  of  the  peo- 
ple of  Ireland  and  the  government  of  Lloyd  George  and  Sir  Hamar 
Greenwood — a  government  which  denies  responsibility  for  the  acts 
of  its  agents,  so  that  you  have  men  executed  in  the  way  that  Lynch 
was  executed,  and  men  who  are  brought  out  of  their  homes  and 
shot  without  trial  or  warrant.  Of  course,  one  of  the  strong  cards 
that  England  has  is  the  killing  of  police.  Sinn  Fein  says,  on  the 
other  hand:  While  we  have  killed  police,  we  have  been  compelled 
to  do  so  in  order  to  keep  the  struggle  of  Sinn  Fein  going.  And 
even  though  many  of  our  young  volunteers  are  arrested  and  taken 
to  barracks  and  killed,  and  then  announced  as  killed  while  trying 
to  escape;  even  though  our  people  are  terrorized  and  our  homes 
destroyed:  and  even  though  sixty-five  out  of  the  seventy-three  mem- 


bers  of  the  Sinn  Fein  parliament  have  served  prison  sentences,  yet 
there  is  no  chance  of  the  morale  of  the  Irish  people  being  broken 

Q.     Where  were  these  members  of  Parliament  imprisoned? 

A.  I  will  give  von  the  list,  showing  the  prison  and  the  time 
served  by  these  men.' 


I  wish  to  make  two  things  clear  from  my  own  investigations.  In 
many  cases  there  are  no  reasons  whatever  for  reprisals.  In  other 
cases,  there  are  mistakes  made,  like  the  burning  of  that  English 
factory  in  Balbriggan.  I  was  in  Gal  way  a  week  after  that  young 
Black-and-Tan  brought  his  revolver  out  and  began  shooting  wildly 
at  the  people  on  the  station  platform,  and  I  want  to  suggest  to 
Mr.  MacDonald  that  if  Father  Griffin  of  Galway  be  asked  to  testify 
here,  he  has  all  the  facts  in  that  case  as  has  no  other  man.  Father 
Griffin   was  kidnapped   by    Black-and-Tans    last   week,    and    nothing 

1  The  witness  submitted  in  evidence  the  official  Irish  Bulletin,  Vol.  2, 
Xo.  72  (13  August,  1920)  :  "In  the  general  election  of  December,  1918, 
68  of  the  Parliamentary  candidates  of  the  Republican  Party  in  Ireland 
were  elected,  several  of  them  for  two  constituencies.  Some  of  the  recent 
experiences  of  these  publicly  elected  representatives  are  given  in  the  fol- 
lowing pages.     They  are  probably  without  a  parallel  in  Europe. 

Twelve  of  these  representatives  have  been  sentenced  to  death. 

Twenty-one  of  these  representatives  have  been  sentenced  to  penal  servi- 
tude for  life,  or  for  terms  of  twenty,  ten,  five  or  three  years. 

Thirty-seven  of  these  representatives  have  been  arrested  without  charge 
and  imprisoned  or  deported  without  trial,  the  majority  of  them  being  kept 
in  prison  for  ten  months  and  then  released  without  explanation  or  apology. 

Sixty-five  of  these  representatives  have  been  imprisoned  in  English  or 
Irish  prisons,  either  without  charge  or  trial  or  for  political  offenses.  Many 
have  been  imprisoned  more  than  twice,  some  have  been  imprisoned  five 
times.  Efforts  were  made  to  arrest  one  of  the  three  who  were  not  im- 

Only  two  of  the  sixty -eight  representatives  were  not  at  some  time  either 
arrested  or  "wanted  by  the  police." 

Eighteen  are  now  hiding  from  arrest  in  Ireland,  America,  France,  and 

This  persecution  of  Irish  Members  of  Parliament  has  continued  without 
cessation  since  May,  1916.  A  constant  passing  in  and  out  of  English 
prisons  has  been  the  common  experience  of  representative  Irishmen  for  the 
past  four  years.  It  continues  to  the  present  moment  to  be  their  experience. 
On  August  12th — the  day  prior  to  the  issue  of  this  Bulletin— Mr.  T.  Mac- 
Swiney,  Member  for  Mid.  Cork,  was  arrested  by  British  troops  while 
presiding  over  a  Republican  Court. 

Since  this  document  was  published,  additional  punishments  have  been 
inflicted  upon  Irish  Members  of  Parliament. 


has  been  heard  from  him  since.1  That  young  Black-and-Tan  who 
was  killed  on  the  station  platform  was  drunk,  it  is  said.  He  was  a 
chauffeur,  and  he  had  been  two  weeks  in  Ireland,  and  had  been 
fed  up  with  the  notion  that  the  Irish  were  particularly  violent.  As 
a  matter  of  fact,  there  is  a  great  deal  of  quietness  in  Ireland,  except 
where  the  police  and  military  are  patrolling.  He  was  on  the  plat- 
form when  the  papers  were  brought  in.  There  was  a  great  rush 
for  the  papers  for  two  reasons:  they  wanted  to  see  about  the  con- 
dition of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney;  and,  in  addition,  there  was  a 
race,  and  the  people  wanted  to  see  the  results  of  the  race.  For 
some  reason,  whether  this  young  man  was  drunk  or  not,  he  got 
excited  and  began  firing.  And  then  the  old  Irish  Constabulary  took 
it  into  their  heads  that  they  would  show  the  people  their  hand, 
and  began  their  reprisals.  The  old  man  Quirk  whom  they  killed 
was  organizer  for  the  Boy  Scouts,  and  known  to  have  the  respect  of 
the  citizens.  There  the  provocation  was  exceedingly  indirect.  It 
must  be  understood  that  the  Black-and-Tan  who  was  killed  at  the 
railroad  station  had  already  killed  a  man.  Nobody  knew  who  he 
was.  He  was  carried  to  a  house  by  Volunteers  of  Sinn  Fein.  Then 
it  was  found  out  that  this  man,  who  had  a  British  revolver,  was 
one  of  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown.  It  was  the  sort  of  thing  that 
might  happen  anywhere,  and  would  not  be  the  occasion  for  an 
outbreak  were  it  not  for  the  political  background.  There  are  every- 
where in  Ireland  desperate  evidences  of  the  efforts  of  Ireland  to 
realize  its  own  will  without  violence. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  do  you  know  about  Father  Griffin  being- 

A.     I  only  know  what  the  New  York  Times  said  last  week. 

Q.     Was  he  invited,  Mr.  MacDonald,  to  come  here? 

Mr.  MacDonald:  No,  he  was  not. 

The  Witness:  Father  Griffin  told  me  the  facts  about  what  hap- 
pened at  Gal  way.  I  went  to  see  Dr.  Thomas  Dillon,  professor  of 
mining  at  the  University.  I  had  to  go  to  eight  places  to  find  him. 
He  was  on  the  run  because  he  was  afraid  of  assassination  by  a 
policeman  who  knew  he  was  a  Sinn  Feiner.  He  had  been  arrested 
and  spent  ten  months  in  an  English  prison  for  a  German  plot.  I 
asked  him  about  the  German  plot,  and  he  said  he  knew  nothing 
about  it.  He  had  never  seen  a  German  plot  in  his  life,  but  it  was  a 
sufficiently  good  pretext  to  send  him  to  prison.  He  sent  me  to 
Father  Griffin,  and  he  told  me  that  the  official  report  of  what  had 

1  Father  Griffin  was  murdered  before  the   Commission  could  secure  his 


happened  at  the  station  passed  through  his  hands.  I  think  Father 
Griffin  must  have  been  prominent  in  the  organization  of  Sinn  Fein. 
What  the  Government  has  tried  to  do  by  hook  or  crook  is  to  get 
rid  of  the  higher  in  command  in  Sinn  Fein.  The  Government  has 
a  list  of  the  prominent  Sinn  Feiners,  and  has  the  instrument  in  the 
Black-and-Tans  to  carry  its  plan  out. 


Who  are  the  Black-and-Tans?  I  went  to  one  gentleman  in  Ire- 
land, whose  name  I  will  give  to  the  Commission,  but  I  will  not 
give  it  publicly. 

Q.     This  is  an  English  officer? 

A.  An  English  officer.  He  told  me  that  they  are  recruited  in 
England  in  many  cases  from  ex-army  men.  They  are  often  adven- 
turers. "An  English  detective,"  he  said,  "came  over  here  to  see 
me  this  morning.  T  am  over  here  to  find  a  convict,  and  I  went  to 
the  depot  of  the  Black-and-Tans  to  find  him,'  the  detective  told  me. 
T  did  not  find  him  there,  much  to  my  surprise,  but  I  found  a  num- 
ber of  other  convicts  whom  I  knew  very  well.'  "  I  think  a  large 
number  of  the  Black-and-Tans  are  desperate  men  who  will  do 
anything.  Major  Erskine  Childers,  who  won  the  D.  S.  0.  for 
bravery  during  the  war,  has  published  a  pamphlet,  which  was  given 
to  you  yesterday,  showing  the  number  of  thefts  that  have  come  from 
Black-and-Tans.  They  are  that  class  of  men.  The  situation  is 
working  up  to  a  crisis.  All  the  time  we  are  being  told  that  Ireland 
cannot  stand  on  her  own  feet  economically,  and  is  run  by  terror  of 
a  small  band  of  extremists. 


I  think  that  when  Ireland  gets  her  freedom,  she  will  work  towards 
a  workers'  commonwealth.  In  any  case  it  is  perfectly  clear  that 
Ireland  can  stand  on  her  own  feet  economically  if  she  is  given 
half  a  chance.  She  is  a  small  nation,  like  Denmark  in  many 
respects.  Its  principal  industry  is  agriculture.  Between  1915  and 
1919  Ireland  contributed  over  and  above  its  own  revenue  for  its 
own  expenditures  sixty-two  million  pounds  to  the  British  Empire. 
That  is  to  pay  for  these  tanks  and  aeroplanes  and  the  one  hundred 
thirty  thousand  soldiers  who  are   running  Ireland. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:     How  is  that  collected? 

A.     Through  excises,  customs,  and  inheritance  and  income  taxes. 


Q.     The  army  of  occupation  is  paid  for  by  the  Irish? 

A.  Not  directly.  The  Irish  contribute  sixty-two  million  pounds 
to  the  Government,  and  that  money  is  spent  in  part  to  maintain  the 
army  of  occupation. 

Senator  Walsh:  That  is  the  policy  of  all  imperialistic  govern- 
ments, to  make  the  people  pay  the  cost  of  keeping  them  down. 

The  Witness:  Miss  Addams  made  the  point  this  morning  that  if 
any  locality  has  a  disturbance,  the  inhabitants  have  to  pay  for  all 
the  damage  done.  And  if  there  is  a  strike,  the  people  have  to  pay 
for  all  the  damage  done  during  the  strike.  If  the  ordinary  bourgeois 
gentleman  sees  a  strike  coming  along,  he  does  not  want  a  strike 
because  he  will  have  to  pay  for  part  of  the  results.  The  Irish 
people,  besides  contributing  to  maintain  this  army  of  occupation, 
have  to  pay  for  all  the  damage  this  army  inflicts  upon  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  does  the  Sinn  Fein  government 
get  its  money? 

A.  Partly  by  the  issue  of  bonds.  Of  course,  it  was  illegal  to 
advertise  those  bonds.  Many  of  them  were  sold  in  America.  Even 
when  they  got  the  money  it  was  not  always  safe,  for  many  of  the 
banks  where  these  Sinn  Fein  funds  are  deposited  have  been  raided. 
The  Sinn  Feiners  try  to  get  the  Irish  to  pay  an  income  tax  to  the 
Irish  rather  than  to  the  British  authorities.  The  British  cannot  col- 
lect the  tax  by  selling  the  property  on  which  the  tax  is  levied  be- 
cause nobody  will  go  to  the  auction  to  bid  on  it.  And  the  property 
cannot  be  picked  up  and  taken  away.  The  English  government 
cannot  get  more  than  ten  per  cent,  of  the  amount  of  its  taxes.  The 
Sinn  Fein  government  asks  the  property  owner  to  pay  to  it  fifty  per 
cent,  of  the  English  tax,  and  promises  to  protect  him  in  case  the 
English  seize  his  property  and  distrain  it  for  non-payment  of  taxes 
to  them.  From  the  fifty  per  cent,  which  it  does  get,  it  is  able  to 
compensate  for  property  which  is  distrained.  I  do  not  know  how 
well  this  plan  will  work  in  the  long  run. 


Now,  as  to  reprisals.  You  can  see  that  the  established  military 
order  exists  to  suppress  by  any  means  the  efforts  of  these  people  to 
assert  themselves  and  establish  their  own  government.  I  have  to 
give  you  an  interview  given  out  by  Sir  Nevil  Macready,  the  military 
head  in  Ireland,  who  defends  the  killing  at  Balbriggan  of  two 
youne;  men.  He  says  that  it  is  only  ordinary  human  nature  that 
the  police  should  act  on   their  own  initiative  when   somebody   has 


been  killed  unfairly.  As  a  result  of  these  killings,  he  says,  it  is 
necessary  to  augment  the  forces  of  law  and  order  from  England- 
This  is  an  interview  given  to  the  Associated  Press,  which  is  a  com- 
plete defense  of  the  military  policy  of  reprisals  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  suppose  that  if  the  Irish 
people  had  been  able  to  build  up  their  own  government  without 
the  killings  of  police,  that  reprisals  would  have  occurred? 

A.  It  is  very  difficult  to  say,  because  the  British  started  out  so 
roughly  in  handling  the  Irish  situation.  They  arrested  people 
merely  on  the  suspicion  that  they  wanted  independence,  and  were 
quite  brutal.  They  started  on  a  policy  of  intimidation,  and  it 
hardly  seemed  possible  for  the  Irish  Volunteers  to  function  unless 
the  police  wrere  driven  out  of  the  country  districts  into  the  towns. 
In  order  to  do  this  they  had  to  use  force.  However,  there  were 
very  few  police  killed  in  getting  the  evacuation  of  six  hundred 
barracks, — perhaps  twenty.  The  police  did  not  put  up  a  fight 
there.  But  when  they  got  into  the  towns,  with  sixty  or  seventy  in 
one  house  and  all  the  instruments  of  modern  war  to  support  them, 
then  they  could  defy  the  population. 


Lots  of  liquor  had  been  shipped  in  for  the  police.  I  myself  have 
seen  drunken  police.  I  have  seen  unshaven  police  on  Sunday 
afternoon.  Those  police  do  get  into  an  excited  frame  of  mind  very 
easily.  They  apparently  have  the  power  to  commit  any  outrage 
with  impunity.  How  the  Irish  have  been  able  to  keep  up  passive 
resistance  for  so  long  as  they  have,  I  do  not  know.  Then  there  had 
to  be  some  policy  taken  in  regard  to  assassinations,  because  those 
assassinations  began,  as  I  have  said,  with  the  police.  I  think  that 
explains  why  some  police  have  been  killed. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  have  you  seen  drunken 

A.  I  have  only  seen  one  instance.  I  have  seen  many  sodden 
men,  dirty  in  uniform,  in  Limerick. 


But  I  have  to  contribute  one  fact  about  the  police  to  meet  Miss 
Addams'  point.  In  Dublin  there  were  five  or  six  members  of  the 
Dublin  Metropolitan  Police  killed.  The  Metropolitan  Police  are 
under  Dublin  Castle,  but  are  not  part  of  the  R.  I.  C.     There  was 


some  sort  of  agreement  between  the  Sinn  Feiners  and  the  Dublin 
Metropolitan  Police  that  if  they  would  go  around  unarmed,  no 
policeman  would  be  killed.  Before  that  five  or  six  had  been  killed. 
Since  then  they  have  gone  around  unarmed  and  none  have  been 
killed.  Of  course,  the  English  do  not  tell  you  that  this  arrangement 
was  made. 

Q.  You  think  the  Sinn  Feiners  would  agree  to  do  that  with  all 
the  police? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  the  Sinn  Feiners  would  agree  to  that  tomorrow. 

Q.  But  that  would  prevent  the  British  from  stamping  out  the 
aspirations  of  the  Irish  for  a  republic. 

A.  Exactly.  The  crime  that  George  Washington  committed  and 
got  away  with,  the  crime  of  the  Czecho-Slovaks  and  the  other  people 
who  were  seeking  independence,  is  the  crime  of  the  Irish  today. 


Q.  Mr.  Wood:  Can  you  give  us  some  idea  of  the  relation  be- 
tween the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  The  Auxiliary  Police  start  as  sergeants.  They  are  taken  in 
at  a  pound  a  day,  and  twenty-five  shillings  a  day  in  disturbed  areas. 
I  do  not  know  this  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  that  is  my  information. 
They  are  brought  over  from  England  as  sergeants  and  put  over  the 
R.  I.  C.  That  has  made  for  bad  blood  in  many  cases.  The  old 
local  senior  military  police  resent  this,  because  these  English  who 
are  brought  over  are  getting  more  pay  and  are  put  over  them.  As 
sergeants  they  are  getting  much  better  pay  than  the  regular  Irish 

I  have  seen  these  Auxiliary  Police  very  often  in  Ireland  coming 
back  from  a  raid  very  early  in  the  morning  covered  with  dust.  I 
myself  have  seen  a  military  motor  lorry  approaching  at  a  high  rate 
of  speed  along  the  roads,  and  you  know  that  you  will  be  killed  if 
you  do  not  get  out  of  the  way.  And  there  have  been  several  people 
killed  by  these  motor  lorries  along  the  roads. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  if  the  English  authori- 
ties had  not  imported  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  British  soldiers 
into  Ireland,  there  would  practically  be  in  Ireland  today  no  English 
government  except  the  officials  in  Dublin  Castle?  That  is,  all  the 
English  magistrates  and  all  the  Irish  Constabulary  were  rapidly 
coming  over  to  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  and  the  Republican  form 
of  government,  so  that  there  would  be  no  Irishmen  in  Ireland  under 


English  pay  who  would  be  out  of  sympathy  with  the  movement  for 
a  Republic? 

A.  No,  I  think  there  would  be  a  small  number  who  would  like 
some  English  connection,  but  they  would  not  be  a  very  large  num- 
ber, perhaps  five  per  cent. 

Q.  But  vou  said  the  magistrates  and  the  police  were  resigning 
in  large  numbers,  so  that  a  situation  was  rapidly  approaching  where 
there  would  be  no  authority  except  the  English  left  in  Dublin  Castle. 

A.  Yes,  I  think  that  is  true.  But  the  police  are  in  this  situation : 
there  are  many  of  them  who  expect  to  be  pensioned  off  after  twenty 
years  of  service, — men  along  about  forty,  forty-five,  or  fifty  years 
of  age.  When  they  approach  the  pension  age  they  are  not  very 
apt  to  quit  the  job.  But  it  is  undoubtedly  true  that  if  the  English 
troops  were  withdrawn  tomorrow,  British  authority  in  Ireland 
would  be  largely  limited  to  Dublin  Castle  and  the  forty-six  or  forty- 
eight  or  fifty  departments — whatever  it  is — that  are  paid  there. 
They  would  stay  there  as  long  as  their  pay  lasted;  but  elsewhere 
the  new  government,  which  has  come  up  under  the  old  government 
like  a  shell,  would  function  openly.  Like  in  County  Conuaught, 
there  are  a  number  of  instances  where  the  police  have  sent  men  to 
the  Republican  courts  to  get  justice. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Tell  us  something  more  about  the  de  facto 
government,  Mr.  Hackett. 

A.  The  de  facto  government  has  a  land  bank  run  by  Lionel 
Smith-Gordon  in  Dublin.  They  are  trying  to  provide  land  for 
landless  men,  and  at  the  same  time  increase  the  country's  economic 
wealth  by  keeping  the  young  men  in  Ireland.  The  population  of 
Ireland  has  sunk  from  eight  million  to  four  million  in  the  last 
eighty  years.  No  population  in  Europe  has  sunk  in  this  same  way. 
The  Sinn  Feiners  are  trying  to  find  means  to  carry  out  the  program 
which  they  formulated  in  1098.  They  have  worked  out  justice  as 
well  as  they  can.  In  most  cases  it  is  not  criminal  justice, — just 
civil  justice.  They  have  established  these  civil  courts.  They  have 
inaugurated  a  commission  of  inquiry  into  the  conditions  and  sources 
of  industry  in  Ireland.  Of  course  it  is  an  illegal  body.  It  is 
pursued  by  the  military  authorities.  They  produced  a  document  on 
milk  production.  It  is  an  excellent  document.  They  are  endeavor- 
ing to  get  the  farmers  of  Ireland  to  introduce  a  very  revolutionary 
thing — milk  testing,  so  that  the  farmers  will  not  have  to  rely  upon 


folk  lore,  but  rather  by  scientific  testing  they  will  be  able  to  say 
that  that  cow  is  a  good  cow  or  a  bad  cow.  This  report,  which  I 
will  leave  with  you,  shows  what  the  Sinn  Fein  government  is  trying 
to  do.  They  have  also  established  a  steamboat  line  from  New  York 
to  Ireland. 

Q.     This  lands  directly  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  at  Dublin,  I  believe. 

Q.  But  direct  trading  connections  are  possible  now  with  the  out- 
side world? 

A.  Yes.  But  like  the  coroners'  inquests,  it  may  be  cut  off. 
They  cannot  land  in  Queenstown  any  more.  If  Dublin  gets  to  be 
a  prosperous  port,  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  it  will  be  cut  off. 

Q.  Now,  about  the  de  facto  government.  Mr.  Morgan  said  yes- 
terday that  the  people  of  Ireland  had  a  certain  amount  of  self- 
determination  by  act  of  Parliament;  that  they  proceeded  to  use  this, 
and  that  the  Republicans  generally  succeeded  in  capturing  the  local 
governing  agencies,  like  he  described  in  Thurles.  How  generally 
has  the  old  imperialistic  government  been  succeeded  by  a  stable 
local  government? 

A.  I  think  you  would  find  it  is  not  proceeding  in  any  logical 
way.  Take,  for  instance,  this  machinery  of  local  government. 
The  Irish  Local  Government  Act  was  enacted  in  1900.  That 
machinery  is  still  employed  by  Sinn  Fein,  although  it  is  British 
machinery.  Where  those  local  bodies  which  Sinn  Fein  controls 
refuse  to  do  things  which  the  English  want  them  to  do,  then  the 
British  immediately,  if  they  can,  cut  off  their  resources.  A  situation 
has  been  created  at  Dublin,  for  example,  where  part  of  the  money 
for  supporting  the  tuberculosis  hospitals  was  contributed  by  the 
Government  to  the  Dublin  municipality.  When  Dublin  declared 
itself  for  Dail  Eireann,  the  British  Government  cut  off  this  money. 

Q.     Then  the  local  government  cannot  function? 

A.  That  is  it.  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  in  a  speech  he  made  last 
August,  said:  "If  they  will  not  run  the  railways,  we  may  not  be 
able  to  compel  them  to  do  so.  But  the  stoppage  of  the  railroads 
in  Ireland,  owing  to  the  refusal  of  certain  railwaymen  to  carry 
soldiers  and  munitions,  would  mean  the  cessation  of  the  old  age 
pensions  paid  to  the  males  and  the  stoppage  of  unemployment 

Q.     Do  you  think  that  is  an  effective  policy? 

A.  I  do  indeed.  The  Government  is  hoping  by  this  method 
to  make  satisfactory  local  government  impossible,  and  to  create  a 
public  opinion  that  will  demand  the  operation  of  the  railroads, 
even  though  the  railroads  carry  troops  and  munitions. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  When  you  speak  of  the  de  facto  government. 
\ou  mean  that  there  is  a  national  government  that  has  representa- 
tives all  over  Ireland,  and  that  eighty  per  cent,  of  the  population 
of  Ireland  have  by  vote  given  recognition  to  that  government,  and 
that  from  eighty  to  ninety  per  cent  of  the  town  and  city  and  county 
councils  recognize  President  De  Valera  and  Dail  Eireann  as  their 
president  and  their  national  government? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  So  that  there  is  every  single  bit  of  legislative  and  executive 
that  the  people  could  establish  to  create  a  national  government? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  But  it  is  being  constantly  broken  up  and  blocked  and  inter- 
fered with  by  the  British  authorities  to  break  down  the  purpose  and 
will  of  the  people? 

A.  Yes,  indeed.  \ou  have  heard,  I  suppose,  of  that  thing  called 
the  Continental  Congress.  Well,  if  the  British  forces  had  got  to 
Philadelphia,  where  the  Continental  Congress  was,  they  would  have 
been  compelled  to  meet  underground.  I  think  that  the  Dail  Eireann 
government  presents  much  the  same  aspect  of  government  in  some 
places  as  one  sees  in  some  of  the  countries  of  Europe,  like  Hungary, 
especially  on  the  military  side,  where  death  is  the  penalty  if  you 
are  found  connected  with  the  new  organization.  But  it  has  got  the 
sympathy  of  the  Irish  people.  They  are  absolutely  with  it.  They 
want  it.  And  the  actual  strength  of  the  people  will  support  it  to 
the  end. 

Q.  Suppose  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  were  removed 
from  Ireland;  what  would  happen? 

A.  The  new  government  would  come  up  from  the  cellar.  It 
would  come  up.  It  would  be  to  England's  best  interests  to  let  it 
come  up.  For  Ireland  is  the  second  best  customer  England  has. 
Next  to  the  United  States.  Ireland  consumes  more  English  goods 
than  any  other  country.  And  it  would  be  even  a  better  customer 
if  it  had  an  opportunity  to  develop  its  own  resources.  Although 
Ireland's  chief  source  of  wealth  is  agricultural,  there  are  only  one 
hundred  agricultural  students  in  all  of  Ireland,  as  against  thousands 
in  a  country  like  Denmark. 

Q.     Only  a  hundred  in  all  the  universities  and  schools  of  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  only  a  hundred  students  who  are  pursuing  courses  in 
scientific  agriculture;  real  students  in  agriculture. 


I  will  leave  with  you  a  very  precious  document  entitled  "The 
Constitution  of  Sinn  Fein,  Established  in  1908,"  with  a  program 
which  is  now  being  put  into  effect.  Its  first  aims  were  a  just  eco- 
nomic system,  the  establishment  of  a  land  bank,  the  early  estab- 
lishment of  the  Irish  mercantile  marine,  and  th'e  development  of 
Ireland's  natural  resources.  There  is,  for  instance,  a  coal  mine 
only  nine  miles  from  where  I  was  born  that  has  never  had  a  railroad. 
Coal  is  still  hauled  by  a  cart. 

Q.     Good  coal? 

A.  Anthracite  coal,  yery  hard,  with  a  good  deal  of  sulphur,  but 
excellent  for  mercantile  uses. 


Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  have  a  sense  that  this  tension 
in  Ireland  is  due  to  the  fact  that  the  military  are  themselves  being 
forced;  that  they  are  in  a  very  forced  position? 

A.  They  are  mixed,  I  think.  I  went  with  a  brother  of  mine  who 
is  a  doctor  in  a  prison  to  the  United  Service  Club,  and  some  of  the 
members  of  that  club  feel  very  bitter  about  the  Irish.  They  have 
been  educated  with  the  idea  that  the  Irish  are  inferior.  They  are  a 
little  like  the  common  soldier  I  heard  about  in  1916.  He  was  asked 
if  the  fighting  was  over  in  Dublin,  and  he  said,  "Yes,  all  but  the 
natives  in  the  hills,  who  have  not  yet  come  in."  They  have  this 
feeling  about  the  natives.  But,  of  course,  I  found  a  good  many 
soldiers  who  hate  their  jobs.  They  say  that  it  is  not  their  job — it 
is  a  police  job.  In  some  cases  the  military  have  prevented  the  police 
from  killing,  and  in  other  places  the  police  have  prevented  the  mili- 
tary from  killing.  And,  by  the  way,  the  only  picture  I  saw  that  was 
destroyed  in  the  Kerry  Row  that  we  heard  about  was  the  picture 
of  King  George.  It  was  in  the  home  of  a  man  who  had  fought  for 
the  British  Crown  in  Flanders.  The  police  probably  destroyed  it 
because  it  was  the  most  vivid  picture  in  the  Row,  with  bright  color- 
ings that  could  not  fail  to  attract  some  attention.  The  man  was 
furious  because,  he  said,  "It  cost  me  a  pound,  and  now  see  what  they 
have  done  to  it."  But  when  the  police  came  down  that  street  de- 
stroying everything,  smashing  in  doors  and  throwing  things  out  of 
the  windows,  and  stabbing  bedding  with  their  bayonets,  the  military 
came  and  stood  by;  and  some  of  the  inhabitants  came  out  and  said, 
"Can  you  not  stop  them?"    And  they  said,  "No,  we  cannot  prevent 


them  from  destroying  property,  but  we  are  here  to  prevent  them 
from  destroying  life."  So  there  is  this  current  of  conflicting  winds. 
I  need  not  tell  you  that  if  a  hundred  and  thirty-five  thousand  soldiers 
on  a  war  footing  got  loose  to  destroy  things  in  Ireland,  they  would 
finish  the  job  in  a  week.  But  there  is  this  tug  between  conflicting 
winds.  All  of  England  is  not  out  to  massacre  Ireland.  If  they  were, 
they  would  have  massacred  them  long  ago.  On  the  other  hand, 
massacres  do  occur. 

Q.  I  mean  between  the  people  and  those  who  are  in  the  military 
and  police  service. 

A.  It  all  depends  upon  the  individual  military  officer.  Some- 
times he  is  orderly  and  civil  and  will  not  allow  any  theft.  In  Gal- 
way,  for  instance,  I  was  told  by  the  Sinn  Feiners  that  the  head  of  the 
military  was  a  very  fine  man,  Hildegard  his  name  was.  But  this 
good  officer  was  ordered  away  and  a  man  called  Cruise  came  there, 
and  he  had  a  very  different  attitude.  In  Galway,  for  instance,  there 
was  one  regiment  stationed  that  had  just  come  there  and  got  it  into 
their  heads  that  they  would  like  to  shoot  up  the  town.  The  other 
regiment  had  been  there  much  longer,  and  had  formed  certain  human 
associations  in  the  town,  and  they  by  force  kept  the  Devonshire 
regiment  in  the  barracks  and  prevented  them  from  destroying  the 
town.     And,  of  course,  the  Sinn  Feiners  are  equally  human. 

In  Belfast  there  was  a  Catholic  house  occupied  by  a  Catholic 
family  in  a  street  where  a  number  of  Protestant  families  live,d.  A 
number  of  men  came  in  and  said,  "We  are  Ulster  Volunteers.  You 
had  better  get  out  of  the  house,  for  we  are  going  to  burn  it."  One 
of  these  Catholic  women  stayed  to  see  what  would  happen,  and  the 
other  rushed  into  the  next  house,  where  the  people  were  also  mem- 
bers of  the  Ulster  Volunteers,  and  said,  "Oh,  for  God's  sake  come 
over.  We  don't  know  what  is  going  to  happen.  There  are  some 
men  who  say  they  are  Ulster  Volunteers,  and  they  are  going  to 
burn  down  our  house."  A  half  dozen  people  rushed  into  the  house 
and  said  to  the  men,  "Who  are  you?"  They  said  they  were  Ulster 
Volunteers,  and  the  others  said,  "What  credentials  have  you?"  And 
they  produced  a  paper.  The  man  from  the  street  said,  "This  will 
not  do  at  all."  And  he  asked  them  what  happened,  and  these 
Volunteers  said,  "We  gave  them  a  wee  beating."  And  my  friend 
said,  "And  where  are  they  now?"  And  they  said,  "They  are  in  the 

And  so  you  have  this  human  situation.  I  talked  to  an  English 
correspondent  who  was  in  a  hospital  in  Limerick,  and  he  said  he 
waved  to  a  motor  lorry  of  soldiers  when  they  went  by,  and  he  said, 
"I  bet  those  men  have  not  got  a  smile  since  they  got  into  Ireland. 


I  have  seen  them  in  Flanders,  and  they  are  all  right."  This  news- 
paper man  was  Mr.  Hugh  Martin.  He  was  in  Dublin  the  next  week 
and  saw  a  row  in  a  bar.  An  officer  who  had  been  drinking  too  much 
was  flourishing  his  revolver.  The  porter  tried  to  shut  the  door, 
and  the  officer  pushed  his  revolver  in  his  face  and  prevented  him. 
Martin  sent  a  report  of  it  to  his  paper.  Two  or  three  days  later  a 
batch  of  English  journalists  went  to  Tralee,  and  the  police  came 
up  to  them  and  said,  "Which  of  you  is  Mr.  Martin?"  And  Martin 
concealed  his  identity,  and  they  said,  "When  we  catch  Mr.  Martin, 
we  are  going  to  kill  him."  And  Mr.  Martin  forgot  the  smile  he 
gave  the  Tommy  and  left  Ireland  the  next  day. 

And  this  situation  is  going  on  unless  some  other  country,  perhaps 
the  United  States,  can  get  it  into  Mr.  Lloyd  George's  conscience 
that  people  should  not  be  crucified  just  because  they  want  the  right 
to  govern  themselves. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  are  the  Sinn  Feiners 

A.  Many  of  the  leaders  are  highly  educated  men.  There  are 
men  like  the  Protestant  writer,  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis;  and  Mr.  George 
Russell,  editor  of  the  Irish  Homestead,  is  very  sympathetic  with 
Sinn  Fein — more  sympathetic  than  any  other  man  I  have  met  out- 
side the  Sinn  Fein  cabinet.  Then  there  are  any  number  of  school 
teachers  and  professors. 

Q.  So  it  is  not  an  organization  led  by  a  few  hot-headed  en- 

A.  On  the  contrary,  I  talked  with  the  largest  dealer  in  sheeting 
in  Belfast,  and  he  is  a  Sinn  Feiner.  The  big  merchants,  a  great 
many  of  them,  in  spite  of  their  interests  in  business,  are  for  Sinn 
Fein.  Mr.  O'Mara,  head  of  the  American  Association  for  Recog- 
nition of  the  Irish  Republic,  whose  father  is  a  big  merchant,  is  a 
Sinn  Feiner. 


Q.  I  would  like  to  have  you  briefly  tell  us  what  the  program 
of  the  Sinn  Fein  organization  is  in  so  far  as  they  endeavor  to  pre- 
vent assaults  and  murders  and  violation  of  law  and  order? 

A.     That  is  the  question  which  Miss  Addams  asked  yesterday. 


Q.  Do  they  have  a  fixed  policy?  Do  they  send  down  orders  to 
those  under  them  to  stop  murders  and  assaults? 

A.  I  think  that  there  isn't  any  doubt  but  that  in  many  cases 
they  have  intervened  to  prevent  violent  acts  by  subordinates.  1 
heard  of  a  man  who  had  been  guilty  of  theft,  who  had  been  intimi- 
dated in  a  horrible  way  into  making  a  confession.  They  knew  the 
man  was  guilty,  and  they  fired  a  revolver  off  beside  his  head  and 
frightened  the  life  out  of  him  until  he  confessed  and  the  goods 
were  restored.  I  told  this  to  a  Sinn  Feiner  in  Dublin,  and  he  was 
furious,  and  he  said,  "If  you  will  tell  me  who  they  are,  I  shall  see 
that  they  are  punished,  for  they  are  guilty  of  a  breach  of  trust." 
But,  of  course,  when  they  have  no  jails  there  is  no  way  of  punishing 
many  people.  When  they  had  General  Lucas  in  prison,  they  finally 
let  him  go  because  it  took  too  many  officers  to  stay  with  him  all 
the  time.  A  Sinn  Feiner  told  me,  "We  did  not  have  the  machinery 
to  keep  that  man  a  prisoner.  It  was  breaking  up  our  organization. 
We  had  to  give  too  much  brains  to  him.  He  had  to  have  the 
Times  from  London  every  day,  and  we  got  it  for  him  somehow. 
But  he  was  too  much  trouble."     So  they  let  him  go. 

There  is  another  instance  of  some  men  found  guilty  by  the  Sinn 
Fein  organization  and  put  on  an  island  in  the  Shannon.  The  R.  I. 
C.  heard  that  they  were  there  and  went  to  rescue  them;  and  when 
they  came  near  the  island,  the  prisoners  took  stones  and  fired  at  the 
R.  I.  C,  because  they  were  afraid  of  being  arrested!  I  could  give 
you  cases  of  Sinn  Fein  police  being  given  two  years  in  prison  be- 
cause of  their  police  work  in  preserving  order.  What  Mrs.  King 
told  you  this  morning  about  Templemore  and  the  police  work  of 
the  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers  there  was  absolutely  accurate.  All. the 
roads  were  broken  by  motor  vehicles.  All  the  vehicles  were  assessed 
sevpral  shillings  for  the  repair  of  the  roads. 


I  myself  have  gone  to  a  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  I  have  been  struck 
by  the  intelligence  and  good  sense  of  these  young  tradesmen  who 
were  running  the  court.  It  was  the  most  democratic  court  I  have 
ever  been  in.  And  although  there  is  no  physical  force  behind  the 
decrees,  they  are  usually  obeyed. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Moral  force? 

A.     Moral  force.    Of  course,  there  is  also  some  physical  force. 

I  The  witness  wTas  thereupon  excused.) 


Chairman  Howe:  This  is  the  last  of  the  hearings  of  the  Commis- 
sion at  this  time.  The  next  sessions  will  probably  be  heard  the 
first  week  in  December.  One  of  the  witnesses  at  that  time  will  be 
Mrs.  MacSwiney,  who  sails  in  a  very  short  time  from  Ireland. 
There  are  a  number  of  other  witnesses  who  are  either  on  the  sea 
or  planning  to  sail  in  a  very  short  time.  There  may  be  one  or  two 
or  three  more  sessions. 


The  last  witness  is  Miss  Toksvig,  of  New  York.  I  can  say  for 
her  that  she  is  a  Dane,  and  has  been  in  this  country  for  at  least 
eight  years.     Miss  Toksvig. 

Q.     Your  name  and  address,  please. 

A.     Signe  Toksvig,  of  229  East  48th  Street,  New  York  City. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  in  America? 

A.     I  have  been  in  America  for  fifteen  years. 

Q.     Are  you  an  Irishman? 

A.  I  am  a  Dane,  claiming  some  relationship  and  interest  in 
Ireland  through  my  husband. 

Q.     Born  in  Denmark? 

A.  Yes.  I  left  there  when  fifteen.  I  went  to  Denmark  this  fall, 
and  then  went  to  Ireland.  We  spent  most  of  the  time  in  the  south 
and  east  of  Ireland.  I  finally  insisted  that  we  should  go  to  Ulster, 
for  although  I  am  not  an  orthodox  Protestant,  I  come  from  a  family 
of  that  persuasion,  and  thought  in  fairness  that  we  ought  to  visit 
Ulster  and  find  out  at  first  hand  what  conditions  there  were  like. 
We  went  there  on  the  seventh  of  September. 


You  probably  know  that  trouble  started  in  Ulster  on  the  twelfth 
of  July,  which  is  Orange  Day.  Trouble  usually  starts  on  that  day 
in  Belfast.  On  the  excuse,  as  I  could  see  it,  that  an  Ulster  man, 
District  Police  Inspector  Smyth,  had  been  killed  in  Cork,1  and 
another  R.  I.  C.  man,  who  was  also  an  Ulster  man,  had  been  shot, 
the  Ulster  shipworkers  refused  to  work  with  their  Catholic  fellow 
laborers,  and  I  think  that  about  five  thousand  Catholic  shipworkers 
in  Ulster  were  compelled  to  leave  because  of  the  demands  of  the 
Protestant  workers,  who  struck  to  compel  their  discharge.     Many, 

See  note,  page  67. 


if  not  most,  of  these  had  to  leave  Ulster  because  they  had  no  other 
means  of  livelihood.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  street  fighting,  as 
you  know.  In  the  poorer  sections  of  the  town,  the  Catholics  and 
Protestants  fought  each  other  with  stones  and  the  like. 


The  first  man  that  we  went  to  see  was  a  Mr.  Lind,  the  editor  of 
the  Whig,  an  extremely  Protestant  paper.  Mr.  Lind  thought  we 
were  tvpical  American  journalists,  and  he  gave  us  what  we  con- 
sidered to  be  the  regular  dope  for  American  journalists.  Much  of 
it  we  knew  at  the  time  was  not  true.  He  filled  us  up  with  the  usual 
stock  stories,  such  as  that  Belfast  had  contributed  more  soldiers  to 
the  Irish  army  during  the  war  than  all  the  rest  of  Ireland  put  to- 
gether (that  can  be  easily  verified,  or  rather  not  verified,  from  the 
records),  and  that  the  rest  of  Ireland  gave  only  two  to  Ulster's 
three.  He  also  said  that  all  the  people  in  Belfast  were  orderly, 
law-abiding  citizens;  and  when  I  remarked  to  him  that  fifty-six 
people  had  been  killed  in  the  month  of  August  in  Belfast,  he  said 
that  when  these  Belfast  people  heard  of  their  fellow  townsmen 
killed  in  Cork,  they  could  not  be  restrained.  He  said  that  the  Sinn 
Feiners  were  all  leagued  with  Germany  and  received  guns  from 
Germany.  I  asked  him  if  it  was  not  true  that  there  had  been  a 
gun-running  at  Larne  at  the  time,  of  the  Carson  rebellion.  He  said 
there  was  not  one  gun  got  from  Germany  at  that  time,  and  if  there 
was,  it  was  for  the  defense  of  the  Empire.  Mr.  Lind  was  very 
pleasant,  but  he  was  not  truthful.  He  was  the  only  man  I  met  in 
Belfast,  however,  who  was  deliberately  insincere.  There  were  some 
others  who  were  sincerely  misinformed  and  misinforming.  But  he 
knew  that  what  he  said  was  not  true. 


Then  I  met  a  Mr.  Good,  who  wrote  the  best  history  of  Ulster  that 
has  been  written,  but  it  was  not  reviewed  in  the  Ulster  papers.  He 
called  attention  to  the  fact  that  it  was  not  so  very  long  ago  that 
Ulster  Catholics  and  Protestants  were  fighting  side  by  side  against 
England.  Mr.  Good  was  the  son  of  the  head  constable  of  the  Irish 
Constabulary.  He  is  not  a  Sinn  Feiner,  but  he  is  a  very  fair  man, 
and  I  think  we  could  believe  what  he  told  us.  He  said  that  in  Bel- 
fast a  very  peculiar  situation  existed.  Most  of  the  constables  were 
Catholics,  owing  to  the  fact  that  no  Ulster  constables  are  placed  in 
their  home  county,  but  are  sent  down  to  the  south  of  Ireland,  and 


vice  versa.  So  that  when  the  Ulster  shipworkers  attacked  their 
Catholic  fellow  workers,  the  constables  protected  them.  He  him- 
self had  often  heard  the  shipworkers  say  that  "When  we  get  those 
constables  alone  we  shall  do  for  them."  He  also  told  us  that  very 
often  the  Catholics  and  Protestants  helped  each  other  in  cases  where 
they  knew  each  other.  He  said  that  whenever  attacks  were  made, 
they  were  not  made  by  neighbors  against  neighbors,  but  by  people 
coming  from  another  part  of  the  town — a  Protestant  gang  would 
come  over  and  fight  someone  in  the  Catholic  quarter,  or  vice  versa, 
but  where  they  were  mixed  and  knew  each  other,  they  were  not  so 
likely  to  do  that. 

I  talked  with  a  man  who  was  a  trolley-car  starter.  We  met  him 
several  times.  He  was  as  kind  a  man  and  as  polite  a  man  without 
being  servile  as  I  have  met.  He  had  very  liberal  views.  He  had 
been  with  the  English  army  that  had  fought  in  Russia  at  Archangel. 
He  said  that  those  people  ought  to  have  the  right  to  decide  what 
kind  of  a  government  they  wanted.  He  thought  that  Englishmen 
surely  ought  to  realize  that  the  Irish  nation  should  have  a  right  to 
say  what  it  wanted  to  do.  And  so  I  said  to  him,  "Don't  you  think 
it  was  rather  rough  to  turn  five  or  six  thousand  people  out  of  their 
employment  just  on  account  of  their  religion?"  And  he  looked  at 
me  and  said,  "Well,  they  were  getting  very  cockey,  and  we  had  to 
put  them  in  their  place." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  these  five  or  six  thousand  who  were 
discharged  Catholics? 

A.     Yes.     Discharged  is  hardly  the  word. 

Q.  The  Protestant  workers  struck,  and  went  back  to  work  on  a 
compromise  that  the  Catholic  workers  would  be  kept  out  of  em- 

A.     Yes. 

Then  he  told  us,  as  an  example  of  the  extreme  cheek  of  the 
Catholics — he  pointed  to  a  street  near  where  he  stood  and  said: 
"A  band  of  them  came  here  one  morning.  They  saw  a  laundry 
wagon  full  of  clothes-baskets.  They  stormed  the  wagon  and  took 
the  baskets  and  made  a  barricade  across  the  street  and  got  down 
behind  that  and  began  to  fire.  But,  fortunately,  we  had  a  very 
brave  inspector  of  police,  and  he  came  along  and  shot  several  of 
them,  and  they  all  fled." 

And  then  in  Londonderry — 

Q.     What  is  the  Protestant  population  in  Belfast? 

A.  The  Catholic  is  about  20  per  cent,  of  the  total  population. 
Most  of  the  others  are  Protestant. 

Q.     And  in  Londonderry  it  is  half  and  half? 


A.     It  is  about  half  and  half.  1  think. 

We  talked  with  the  man  who  showed  us  around  the  walls  in  Lon- 
donderry. The  most  that  we  got  out  of  him  was  that  it  was  very 
bad  for  Catholics  and  Protestants  to  marry,  because  it  would  never 
work.  And  home  rule  would  never  work.  He  had  no  reasons  to 
give  us.  He  just  had  that  idea  roofed  in  his  head.  He  wa-  out  oi 
work,  and  was  a  bit  dissatisfied. 

Q.     Had  the  strike  extended  to  Londonderry'.'' 

A.     No.     I  do  not  know  why  he  was  out  of  work. 

I  talked  to  another  man  from  the  south  of  Ireland,  and  he  began 
to  talk  to  me  very  freely  when  he  found  that  I  was  sympathetic.  1 
do  not  know  wThether  he  was  a  Sinn  Feiner,  but  he  was  Republican. 
In  the  south  of  Ireland,  he  said,  you  cannot  even  carry  a  camera 
without  being  arrested;  but  in  Belfast  you  can  have  a  Lewis  gun  in 
your  house  if  you  are  of  the  right  persuasion  and  you  will  not  be 
touched.  I  said,  "Whose  houses  have  been  destroyed  in  Belfast?"" 
He  told  me  that  in  certain  districts  only  certain  houses  were  de- 
stroyed. I  went  to  that  district  and  found  that  most  of  the  houses 
destroyed  had  Irish  names  on  them — Murphy,  O'Callaghan,  and  so 
forth — Irish  Catholic  names.  They  were  mostly  public  houses. 
And  I  was  told  by  a  man  who  was  there  that  the  soldiers  were  there 
at  the  time  of  the  raid,  and  that  they  held  back  the  mob,  and  let  a 
few  of  the  mob  through,  and  said,  "Easy.  easy,  only  a  few  at  a 
time.     There  is  enough  for  everybody." 


The  whole  prospect  for  immediate  peace  there  seemed  very  dis- 
couraging, especially  in  view  of  the  large  piles  of  stones  in  the 
poorer  sections  of  Belfast,  which  they  call  Irish  confetti  or  Irish 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  are  those  stones? 

A.  We  wTere  told  by  Mr.  Good,  who  knows  Belfast  very  well, 
that  these  cobblestones  were  a  great  menace  to  the  peace  of  the 
city.  At  one  time  the  city  council  voted  to  have  the  streets  of  the 
city  repaved,  so  that  this  menace  might  be  done  away  with.  But 
they  voted  to  begin  repaving  in  the  Nationalist  quarter;  and  the  Na- 
tionalist members  of  the  council,  as  few  as  they  were  in  number, 
made  such  a  row  that  the  paving  wras  never  done;  and  of  course  in 
the  Orange  section  of  the  city  they  refused  to  have  the  paving  begin 
there,  because  it  would  leave  them  without  weapons. 



Also  we  met  an  Ulster  man  who  was  an  Unionist,  and  also  a  rea- 
sonable human  being.  He  was  a  large  manufacturer,  but  of  course 
I  could  not  give  his  name  except  very  privately  to  the  Commission. 
He  only  talked  to  us  because  we  came  very  highly  recommended  by 
Mr.  Good,  who  is  well  known  in  Belfast.  At  first  he  was  very  reti- 
cent and  confidential,  but  after  awhile  he  said,  "I  know,  and  all  the 
manufacturers  in  this  city  know,  that  the  trouble  is  not  a  religious 
trouble  except  as  it  has  been  fostered  by  them  to  serve  their  political 
and  their  economic  interests," 

Q.     By  "them"  meaning  whom? 

A.  By  the  manufacturers  in  Belfast.  He  said,  "1  warned  them 
a  long  time  ago  that  they  were  raising  up  a  monster  which  they 
could  not  control  and  which  some  day  might  turn  upon  them,  but 
they  paid  no  attention.  Both  the  press  and  the  clergy — not  all  of 
them,  but  some  of  them — and  the  large  manufacturers  have  worked 
together  to  keep  up  strife  between  the  workmen  in  Belfast,  using  the 
religious  issue  simply  as  a  means." 

Q.     As  a  means  to  prevent  what? 

A.  To  prevent  agitation  among  laborers  to  improve  their  con- 
dition and  wages,  and  home  rule  agitation  secondly.  It  seems  to 
me  that  that  was  a  large  admission  for  him  to  make.  He  might  be 
willing  to  come  over  here  and  testify.    He  is  a  very  courageous  man. 


Q.     Did  your  other  evidence  confirm  that? 

A.  Yes,  absolutely.  The  brother  of  this  man,  who  is  a  junior 
partner  in  the  firm,  talked  with  us  afterwards,  and  he  gave  us  the 
same  impression.  He  was  terribly  shocked  by  what  he  called  the 
murders  of  policemen  in  the  south  of  Ireland.  Of  course,  his  whole 
point  of  view  was  that  England  furnished  all  their  law  and  order, 
and  he  repudiated  the  Sinn  Fein  government.  He  said,  "You  can 
hardly  blame  us.  We  went  to  school  in  England.  All  our  connec- 
tions and  acquaintances  are  there.  Nevertheless,  we  are  not  against 
dominion  home  rule."  They  were  against  the  Sinn  Fein  Republic. 
I  do  not  know  whether  it  would  be  possible  to  change  them  or  not. 
My  own  personal  feeling  was,  in  talking  with  other  people  in 
Ulster,  people  in  the  stores  and  on  the  streets,  that  they  were  enough 
different  from  the  people  in  the  rest  of  Ireland  to  have  the  right  to 
vote  as  to  what  would  become  of  them.     The  man  with  whom  I 


talked  said,  "I  know  perfectly  well  that  this  country  our  forefathers 
got  by  robbing  the  Irish  inhabitants  several  hundred  years  ago. 
But  we  have  developed  this  country  by  our  own  labors,  and  is  it 
right  to  drive  us  out  of  here  without  giving  us  a  voice  as  to  what  is 
going  to  become  of  us?"  He  was  a  descendant  of  one  of  the  fam- 
ilies that  was  planted  in  Ulster. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  they  use  the  word  "planted"  in  Ulster  to 
denote  those  who  were  planted  there  by  England  many  years  ago? 

A.  Yes,  he  knew  that.  He  knew  more  history  than  the  majority 
of  the  people  in  Ulster. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    Just  when  was  that? 

A.  The  planting  was  about  two  hundred  years  ago.  Then  we 
talked  with  the  bookkeeper  in  that  firm,  who  took  us  around  and 
showed  us  the  factory.  I  have  seen  excellent  factories  in  the  United 
States,  and  this  factory  was  as  good  as  any  of  them.  It  was  an  ex- 
ceptional case.  I  saw  many  young  girls  working  who  looked  to  me 
to  be  under  fourteen,  but  he  said  that  they  were  all  over  fourteen, 
and  they  probably  would  have  said  so  themselves.  They  had  a 
nine-hour  day.  There  are  some  factories  in  Belfast,  we  heard  from 
the  bookkeeper,  which  were  not  up  to  that  standard.  Yet  they  had 
municipal  inspection  all  the  time,  and  had  to  measure  up  to  a  cer- 
tain norm.  The  bookkeeper  also  said  that  there  were  factories  in 
the  south  of  Ireland,  usually  laundries  and  places  like  that,  which 
were  far  from  sanitary  and  ought  to  be  inspected.  I  said  to  him. 
"Is  that  in  your  opinion  an  argument  against  Ulster  coming  into  an 
independent  Ireland  or  an  Irish  dominion?  Are  you  afraid  that  the 
south  of  Ireland  will  hinder  you  in  Belfast  from  doing  what  you  are 
doing?"  He  said,  "No,  that  is  all  the  more  reason  why  we  should 
go  into  an  Irish  parliament  and  settle  it  between  ourselves  and  de- 
cide together  what  we  are  going  to  do."  All  the  people  in  that  fac- 
tory are  Presbyterians — Protestants.  Both  the  bookkeeper  and  the 
two  brothers  at  the  head  of  this  factory  I  found  to  be  as  liberal  and 
as  good  to  their  employees  as  any  employers  I  have  ever  met. 


I  think  this  is  all  I  have  to  say,  except  that  we  attended  an  in- 
quest in  Belfast  over  two  murders  that  occurred  in  August.  The 
thing  that  impressed  me  most  was  a  conversation  I  had  with  a  police 
sergeant.  He  was  an  Ulsterman  from  County  Cavan,  I  think.  He 
was  a  reasonable  man,  and  I  said  to  him:  "Don't  you  think  it  would 
be  much  better  if  you  were  a  civil  force,  and  did  not  have  to  carry 
these  arms?"  pointing  to  his  arms.     He  said,  "Yes,  I  think  it  would 


be  far  better  if  we  were  only  a  civil  force,  and  had  no  military  duties 
to  perform."  T  was  also  impressed  by  the  evidence  given  by  the 
district  inspector  of  police  at  that  inquest,  and  at  the  way  his  evi- 
dence was  disregarded  by  the  coroner  and  the  coroner's  jury.  His 
evidence  had  to  do  with  the  case  of  a  man  shot  from  an  armored 
car.  There  were  two  streets,  connected  by  another  street  forming  a, 
letter  H,  where  there  was  a  riot.  That  cross-bar  street,  however, 
was  perfectly  quiet.  It  appeared  to  me  from  the  evidence  that  it 
was  perfectly  clear  that  the  man  standing  at  his  door  in  that  cross 
street  was  a  quiet,  peaceful  man.  His  widow  was  there.  That  man 
was  a  Protestant.  He  was  also  a  Sinn  Feiner  as  far  as  I  know.  It 
was  evident  that  he  had  been  shot.  But  the  coroner  and  the  jury 
were  so  anxious  to  gloss  it  over  that  the  three  young  officers,  who 
appeared  to  be  very  excited,  were  acquitted  by  the  jury. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  the  north  they  still  have  coroners' 

A.  Yes,  because  in  the  north  the  people  on  the  jury  will  in- 
variably give  the  verdict  that  the  Crown  wants,  while  in  the  south 
of  Ireland  it  will  always  bring  in  the  verdict  that  the  Crown  does 
not  want. 

Q.  Then  there  is  a  different  rule  for  different  sections  of  the 
country  in  regard  to  coroners'  juries? 

A.     Yes,  exactly. 


There  is  one  more  thing  I  want  to  tell  you  as  an  example  of  how 
the  Ulster  manufacturers  have  called  into  being  a  monster  of  re- 
ligious prejudice  that  they  can  no  longer  control.  The  owner  of  a 
very  large  machine  works,  called  the  Sirocco  works,  I  believe,  had 
been  affected  by  the  very  same  conditions  that  the  shipyards  had  to 
face.  The  Protestant  workmen  laid  down  their  tools  and  refused 
to  go  back  to  work  with  Catholic  employees.  The  owner  wanted  to 
start  up  again,  but  he  could  not  because  there  were  certain  drafts- 
men employed  by  him,  very  crucial  men,  men  on  whom  the  industry 
depended,  who  were  Catholics.  No  one  else  could  take  their  places. 
so  he  slipped  them  in  and  thought  the  other  workmen  would  not 
notice  it.  But  the  workmen  did  notice  it,  and  demanded  that  he  dis- 
miss these  men.  And  so  he  had  to  shut  down  his  factory.  He  could 
not  run  without  them.  And  of  course  it  threw  the  Protestant  work- 
men   out   of  employment   too.      The   bookkeeper   to   whom    I    have 


referred  told  me  about  this  case.  "And  so,"  he  said,  "that  is  the 
result  of  stirring  up  religious  prejudices." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  not  the  whole  religious  question  in  Ire- 
land one  of  the  privileged  classes,  the  financial  interest  classes,  who 
control  some  of  the  press  and  clergy  and  keep  these  religious  dif- 
ferences stirred  up  for  intrenching  their  own  privileges? 

A.  That  is  true.  But  you  must  remember  that  they  have  suc- 
ceeded in  doing  that.  They  have  dangled  the  religious  bogey  be- 
fore the  people  for  so  long  that  now  a  very  real  feeling  exists.  It 
started  out  like  that.  But  the  present  generation  is  not  going  to 
forget  about  it  soon,  even  though  it  was  started  artificially. 

Chairman  Howe:    We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you. 

Adjournment  5:45  P.  M. 


Before  the 

Session  One 

Jane  Addams 

James  H.  Maurer 

Oliver  P.  Newman 

George  W.  Norris 

Norman  Thomas  \    Commissioners 

David  I.  Walsh 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 

Before  the  Commission  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washington, 
D.  C,  Wednesday,  December  8,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:23  a.  m. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  session  will  please  come  to  order.  Since 
the  last  meeting  of  the  Commission  the  following  persons  have 
become  members  of  the  Commission,  and  will  sit  with  us  this 

Senator  George  W.  Norris,  of  Nebraska. 

Congressman-Elect  C.  L.  Knight  has  been  elected  but  is  not  here, 
although  he  has  accepted  membership.  He  is  the  Congressman- 
elect  from  Akron,  Ohio. 

Major  Oliver  P.  Newman,  former  District  Commissioner  of  the 
District  of  Columbia.  Major  Newman  is  sick  in  bed  today  and 
cannot  be  with  us. 

Mr.  Norman  Thomas,  of  New  York,  who  is  here  this  morning. 

The  Commission  has  also  asked  Senator  Thomas  Walsh,  of  Mon- 
tana, and  Ex-Senator  James  Martine,  of  New  Jersey,  to  sit  with  the 
Commission  today.     They  are  present  with  us. 

The  first  witness  this  morning  is  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney.  Miss 
MacSwiney  is  on  the  witness  stand. 

Miss  MacSwiney,  you  realize  that  this  is  not  a  regular  legal  hear- 



ing — not  a  legal  procedure — and  you  are  not  subject  to  cross  exami- 
nation, except  that  the  members  of  the  Commission  want  to  examine 
you  to  get  at  the  facts  and  find  out  about  conditions  in  Ireland.  We 
want  you  to  tell  your  story  in  a  way  that  is  easy  and  natural  to  you, 
and  we  would  like  to  have  you  tell  it  loud  enough  so  that  as  many 
of  the  people  here  as  possible  can  hear  it. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh  (of  counsel)  :  Your  name  is  Miss  Mary 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside,  Miss  MacSwiney? 

A.     In  Cork,  Cork  city. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  that  there  was  something  you  wanted  to 
say  to  the  Commission. 


A.  I  felt  that  I  wanted,  before  I  started  my  evidence  this  morn- 
ing, to  thank  the  Commission  and  the  American  people  first,  for 
the  kindly  reception  we  got,  and  to  thank  the  Commission  for  its 
endeavor  to  help  Ireland  by  getting  at  the  truth. 

I  think  the  best  evidence  that  this  Commission  is  impartial  is  the 
fact  that  when  I  left  Ireland  I  got  the  impression  from  some  Amer- 
icans that  were  there  in  the  summer  that  this  Commission  was  one 
especially  arranged  by  friends  of  England  to  try  to  whitewash  her 
in  the  papers,  and  to  do  it  not  only  in  England's  interests  but  in  the 
interests  of  an  Anglo-American  alliance.  I  find  also  that  our 
enemies  took  it  that  you  are  a  Sinn  Fein  sympathizing  Commission. 
And  since  we  thought  you  were  pro-British,  and  they  thought  you 
were  pro-Irish,  you  must  therefore  be  impartial. 

I  should  also  like  to  express  my  appreciation  of  the  fact  that  the 
Commission  has  been  trying  to  carry  out  one  of  the  purposes  for 
which  America  entered  the  war,  and  which  I  think  we  all  agree  was 
not  quite  effected  by  the  war,  and  that  is  to  make  the  world  safe  for* 
democracy.  As  far  as  my  evidence  is  concerned,  I  should  like  to 
give  whatever  evidence  I  have  to  the  Commission. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  wish  you  would 
begin  at  the  point  that  you  suggested  to  me  that  you  thought  would 


be  significant,  and  as  far  as  you  can,  go  ahead  with  your  own  story. 
I  will  ask  you  a  few  questions  to  begin  with.  You  are  the  sister  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  the  names  of  your  parents? 

A.  John  Terence  MacSwiney  was  my  father's  name.  He  was  a 
native  of  County  Cork,  where  my  family  have  resided  since  the 
fourteenth  century.  And  my  mother  was  named  Mary  Wilkinson. 
She  was  born  and  brought  up  in  England,  but  of  her  four  grand- 
parents, three  were  Irish. 

Q.     How  many  brothers  and  sisters  have  you? 

A.     Originally  a  family  of  nine,  five  boys  and  four  girls. 

Q.     And  how  many  are  living  now? 

A.     Six  since  my  brother  Terence  died. 

Q.     Have  the  family  always  lived  in  Cork? 

A.  My  father  went  to  England  after  the  Fenian  times,  when 
things  were  very  hard  in  Ireland,  and  took  up  a  position  there,  and 
married  my  mother  there,  and  I  was  born  there. 

Q.     In  London? 

A.  In  London.  We  came  back  to  Ireland  when  I  was  five.  The 
family  have  lived  there  ever  since.  Some  have  gone  away  for  short 
periods.  I  was  in  college  in  England  and  was  teaching  in  England 
for  a  while. 

Q.     What  place  was  the  late  Lord  Mayor  in  the  family? 

A.     He  was  the  fourth. 

Q.     He  was  the  fourth  in  the  family? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  how  many  brothers  and  sisters  have  you  living? 

A.     I  have  now  two  brothers  and  three  sisters  living. 

Q.     And  the  brothers  are  whom? 

A.  My  eldest  brother  is  Peter.  He  is  an  American  citizen.  He 
came  to  this  country  in  1908  and  was  naturalized  here,  and  lived 
in  New  York.  My  youngest  brother,  John,  was  in  Canada  when  the 
war  broke  out,  and  he  got  a  very  bad  time  there  because  he  would 
not  join  the  British  army  to  fight  the  small  nations.  He  was  sen- 
tenced to  two  years'  imprisonment,  and  might  even  have  been  sen- 
tenced to  death;  and  he  was  about  to  be  transported  forcibly  to 
fight  in  the  British  army,  but  some  of  his  friends  got  a  writ  of 
habeas  corpus,  to  prove  that  under  Canadian  law  they  were  not 
entitled  to  send  him  across  seas;  and  while  that  matter  was  under 
the  jurisdiction  of  the  courts,  the  armistice  was  signed. 

Q.     Where  do  your  sisters  reside? 

A.     Two   of   my   sisters   are   nuns.      One   is   in   Asheville,   North 


Carolina.     She  ha:-  been  in  America  since   1910.     Another  sister  is 
in  Japan.     My  third  and  youngest  sister  is  at  home. 

Q.     What  has  your  life  been? 

A.     A  teacher. 

Q.      How  long  have  you  been  a  teacher? 

A.     I  have  been  a  teacher  since  1901. 


Q.  You  suggested,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  in  order  to  give  a 
proper  background  for  other  features,  and  what  has  transpired  re- 
cently, you  might  briefly  sketch  the  Republican  movement,  espe- 
cially as  it  has  touched  your  family  and  your  case,  and  as  you 
had  observation  of  it. 

A.     Just  the  present  Republican  movement? 

Q.     Well,  the  background  you  gave  me. 

A.  I  suppose  the  background  of  most  of  the  Irish  families  such 
as  ours  is  the  background  of  Ireland.  I  would  like  to  emphasize 
that  the  present  Republican  movement  is  not  a  new  thing.  It  is  a 
continuous  fight  that  has  been  going  on  for  Irish  freedom  ever  since 
the  English  conquered  our  country.  In  Henry  VIII's  time  they  held 
a  very  small  portion  of  the  country.  He  was  the  first  to  take  the 
title  of  King  of  Ireland,  but  he  was  really  king  of  only  a  couple 
of  counties.  By  degrees  the  English  spread  over  Ireland,  and 
finally  dominated  the  whole  of  it.  But  from  the  time  that  they 
dominated  the  country,  there  never  has  been  one  generation  when 
a  fight  for  independence,  an  open  fight,  has  not  taken  place.  There 
has  always  been  an  open  current  of  hostility  to  English  government 
in  Ireland,  and  the  Irish  people  have  never  once  in  all  the  course 
of  their  history  accepted  the  British  government  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Coming  down  through  the  Home  Rule  movement,  with  which 
I  believe  you  are  familiar,  is  there  a  connection  between  this  Home 
Rule  movement  and  the  struggles  that  have  gone  on  all  the  time 
against  English  domination  over  your  country? 

A.  Distinctly,  I  should  say.  Suppose  I  begin  with  1798.  I  will 
not  take  very  long.  In  1798  there  was  an  outbreak.  They  call  it 
the  Irish  Rebellion.  I  should  like  to  emphasize  for  the  American 
people  that  the  definition  of  a  rebellion  is  an  uprising  against  law- 
fully constituted  authority.  Consequently  there  never  has  been  a 
rebellion  in  Ireland.  There  was  an  insurrection.  But  you  cannot 
have  a  rebellion  unless  you  are  rising  against  lawfully  constituted 


authority.     And  England's  authority  in  Ireland  was  never  lawfully 
constituted — it  was  an  usurpation  maintained  by  the  sword. 


Consequently,  in  1798  there  was  an  Irish  insurrection,  in  which 
Wolfe  Tone,  Lord  Edward  Fitzgerald,  and  many  other  famous  men, 
with  whose  names  we  are  not  familiar,  tried  to  secure  Ireland's  free- 
dom. It  was  distinctly  a  Republican  movement.  Wolfe  Tone  de- 
clared for  Irish  independence,  and  it  was  an  insurrection  all  the 
leaders  of  which  were  without  exception  Protestants.  I  should  like 
to  emphasize  that,  because  some  of  your  people  have  the  idea  that 
the  Irish  difficulty  is  a  religious  difficulty.  There  is  no  religious 
difficulty  in  Ireland  of  serious  importance.  It  is  entirely  a  move- 
ment for  political  freedom.  I  might  say  that  many  of  the  leaders 
in  the  Republican  movement  have  been  Protestants,  not  only  Wolfe 
Tone  and  Lord  Edward  Fitzgerald,  but  men  like  the  Emmets,  Mac- 
Cracken,  Thomas  Davis,  John  Mitchel,  and  Parnell — for  we  do 
reverence  Parnell,  because  he  put  up  a  good  fight  in  his  day.  And 
many  of  the  leaders  of  the  present  movement  are  Protestants. 

Well,  that  revolt  was  crushed,  and  then  there  was  a  period  from 
1817  to  1847  when  there  were  many  petty  wars  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Miss  MacSwiney,  may  I  interrupt  you  there? 
Were  all  the  names  of  all  those  persons  you  named  Protestants? 

A.  Every  one  of  them,  Senator,  and  many  more  of  them.  Dur- 
ing that  period,  the  first  half  of  the  nineteenth  century,  the  Tithe 
Wars  and  the  wars  against  an  oppressive  landlord  system  were 
constantly  going  on.  They  were  what  you  might  call  little  sectional 
wars.  The  Tithe  War  was  national.  It  meant  that  the  Irish  Catholic 
population  were  protesting  against  having  to  support  non-Catholic 
clergymen.  As  an  instance,  I  can  tell  you  of  clergymen  who  got 
a  salary  of  one  thousand  pounds  a  year.  That  would  be,  I  suppose, 
about  five  thousand  dollars;  and  they  never  entered  Ireland  from 
one  year's  end  to  another.  They  lived  in  England  and  spent  their 
money  in  England. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  That  was  paid  out  of  the  public  taxation? 

A.     Out  of  the  public  taxes,  yes. 

Q.  That  was  the  struggle  against  what  was  called  the  Irish 

A.  Yes.  And  it  finally  ended  in  the  disestablishment  of  the 
Church  in  1869.     But  it  was  only  by  the  Fenian  uprising  that  they 


later  disestablished  the  Church.     Meantime  we  had  a  Repeal  Move- 
ment, which  was  a  constitutional  movement. 


Then  we  had  the  Republican  movement  of  1848,  following  the 
famine.  That  is  what  was  technically  known  as  a  famine,  but  it 
was  not  a  famine  at  all.  It  was  a  starvation  policy  enforced  by 

Q.  Mr.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  During  that  time  was  there  plenty  of 
food  in  Ireland? 

A.  Plenty.  There  was  food — corn  and  meat — to  the  value  of 
fifteen  million  pounds  a  week  sent  out  of  Ireland.  And  if  Ireland 
really  had  a  government  of  its  own  and  there  was  a  scarcity  of 
food,  the  first  thing  that  government  would  do  would  be  to  close 
the  ports  and  prevent  the  shipping  of  food.  But  England  put  her 
armed  soldiers  at  the  ports  to  keep  them  open,  and  food  to 
the  value  of  fifteen  million  pounds  a  week  went  out  of  Ireland — 
that  would  be  nearly  $60,000,000  a  week  went  out  of  Ireland — 
while  over  a  million  people  died  of  famine. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  That  was  not  a  famine.  That  was  a  star- 

A.     Exactly,  as  starvation  is  going  on  in  Ireland  today. 

Q.     Now  to  bring  it  down  to  date. 

A.  The  movement  of  1848  was  all  a  Republican  movement. 
That  was  entirely  a  Republican  movement.  And  surely  one  sees 
the  extraordinary  vitality  of  Ireland  when  a  famine  that  destroyed 
one  and  one-quarter  million  people  did  not  subjugate  them.  In  a 
year  after  that  they  were  in  arms  again. 


Again  in  1867  the  Fenian  movement  sprang  up,  and  that  move- 
ment was  suppressed  after  a  time.  Many  of  the  Fenians  fled  to 
America  and  lived  here  for  many  years;  and  about  the  last  of  them 
lives  now  in  New  York.  I'm  sure  that  many  of  those  listening  to 
me  have  heard  of  John  Devoy  as  the  last  man  connecting  the  present 
generation  with  the  other. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  did  the  Fenian  movement  differ  from 
the  others? 

A.  Not  at  all,  or  it  differed  only  in  that  it  was  a  secret  move- 
ment.    They  had  a  secret  oath. 


Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  it  have  religious  aspects? 

A.  Yes.  On  the  ground  that  it  was  a  secret  society  with  a  secret 
oath,  many  of  the  bishops  condemned  it,  and  that  frightened  many 
of  the  people  away. 

Q.     How  about  having  Protestants  in  the  ranks? 

A.     Oh,  there  were  many  Protestants  in  the  ranks. 

Q.  There  never  was  any  difference  or  division  along  religious 

A.  Never.  Never.  Insomuch  as  it  was  more  a  movement  of  the 
proletariat  it  was  more  Catholic  than  the  '98  movement  was,  because 
the  proletariat  were  always  more  Catholic.  And  for  that  reason 
it  was  more  largely  Catholic,  even  among  the  leaders,  .than  the  '98 
movement,  because  there  was  hardly  a  single  Catholic  leader  in 
the  '98  movement. 

Q.  What  various  Irish  national  movements  developed  after- 
wards, if  any,  that  could  not  be  said  to  be  strictly  along  constitu- 
tional  lines,   beginning    with   Sir   Isaac   Butt's   constitutional   move- 


A.  Sir  Isaac  Butt  was  a  Protestant,  but  we  would  call  him  a 
very  strong  imperialist.  He  did  believe  in  home  rule  for  Ireland, 
and  started  a  home  rule  movement,  which  was  a  very  milk-and-water 
affair  indeed.  Then  Parnell  came  along.  Parnell  was  a  Protestant, 
as  Butt  was,  but  Parnell  took  up  the  movement  for  freedom  and 
liberty  from  the  Irish  point  of  view,  while  Butt  took  it  up  from  the 
standpoint  of  convenience  for  the  British  Empire.  I  think  Amer- 
icans understand  that  point  of  view.  Butt  did  not  want  the  Empire 
weakened.  Parnell  was  different.  He  thought  the  Irish  question 
was  really  and  truly  dominant,  and  that  Ireland  had  a  right  to  have 
a  voice  in  its  settlement.  Parnell  met  the  Fenian  leaders,  many  of 
them,  and  asked  their  permission  practically  to  try  a  constitutional 
movement  in  Westminster.  In  1829  Daniel  O'Connell  had  obtained 
the  right  to  have  Catholics  represented  in  Parliament.  And  Parnell 
said  it  would  be  better  to  use  this  right  and  see  what  could  be  done 
in  Westminster. 

Q.  Was  it  generally  known  that  Parnell,  as  far  as  his  effort 
for  complete  liberty  was  concerned,  did  work  in  harmony  with  the 
Irish  Republican  brotherhood? 

A.  Yes.  He  made  a  definite  agreement  with  them  to  stand  aside 
for  a  time  and  see  how  his  scheme  would  work.  And  he  gave  them 
a  definite  promise  that  if  after  a  certain  period  they  felt  that  they 


were  obtaining  no  good  by  staying  at  Westminster,  he  would  go 
back  to  Ireland  and  work  there.  That  was  a  definite  promise  by 
Parnell  to  the  Fenians.  Before  he  started  his  movement  at  West- 
minster he  made  that  promise. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Did  the  Irish  people  ever  notice  anything 
in  the  statements  of  Parnell  publicly,  or  in  the  statements  he  made 
in  the  House  of  Commons,  that  would  indicate  that  he  was  willing 
to  place  any  positive  inhibition  on  or  suppress  efforts  at  complete 

A.  No.  The  people  were  quite  confident  that  Parnell  meant 
absolute  independence  in  the  end,  and  that  Home  Rule  was  only  a 
stepping  stone.  And  Parnell  himself  said  over  and  over  again  that 
no  man  could  say  that  when  Ireland  got  Home  Rule,  we  would  not 
want  anything  more.  He  was  asked  over  and  over  again  to  give 
that  promise,  and  he  refused  to  give  it.  He  said:  "No  man  can  put 
bounds  to  the  onward  march  of  a  nation."  These  words  of  his  are 
historic,  and  that  was  his  answer  to  England  asking  him  to  give  a 
guarantee  that  if  Ireland  got  home  rule,  she  would  not  want  any- 
thing more. 

Q.     Was  there  any  change  in  the  Parnell  policy? 

A.  No,  Parnell  never  did  change  it.  Parnell  carried  on  that 
fight  by  means  of  obstruction.  You  can  see  that  there  was  no  chance 
to  go  on  with  obstruction  forever.  At  that  time  there  was  no  limit 
to  the  length  of  the  speech  a  man  could  make  in  the  House  of 
Parliament.  So  Parnell  said,  "Very  well,  if  you  will  not  pass  any 
Irish  legislation,  you  will  not  pass  any  English  legislation  either.'" 
And  then  the  whole  eighty  members  of  the  Irish  Party  began  to 
talk,  and  Parliament  did  not  pass  any  English  legislation.  Then 
they  brought  in  the  Cloture  Bill,  by  which  the  Speaker  could  stop 
debate  on  a  bill  at  the  end  of  the  day's  session.  Parnell  was  a  very 
much  hated  man.  He  adopted  a  policy  that  his  followers  could  not 
join  in  English  social  life  or  join  English  social  groups,  in  order 
to  keep  themselves  absolutely  uncontaminated  by  English  influence 
— which  was  a  very  wise  decision.  Then  they  tried  to  put  tempta- 
tion in  Parnell's  way,  and  Parnell  fell.  I  only  want  to  say  one 
thing  about  that:  after  the  judgment  was  given  against  Parnell,  there 
was  a  meeting  of  the  Irish  party  in  Room  Fifteen,  and  they  dis- 
cussed in  the  meeting  all  night  long  as  to  whether  they  should  ask 
Mr.  Parnell  to  resign.  They  decided  that  they  would  not;  that  the 
man's  private  life  was  his  own  affair,  and  that  he  was  doing  the 
duty  that  he  undertook  to  do  for  Ireland;  and  therefore  they  elected 
him  leader.  The  plan  was  a  disappointment  to  the  Unionists,  be- 
cause they  thought  the  Irish  leaders  would  be  so  terrified  of  what 


people  might  say  in  Ireland  that  they  would  dismiss  Parnell.  Then 
Mr.  Gladstone,  who  posed  as  a  friend  of  Ireland— and  I  believe  was 
good  enough  in  his  own  way,  but  in  regard  to  Ireland  thought  it 
was  a  matter  of  territorial  dominion  and  sovereignty — Mr.  Glad- 
stone put  on  a  virtuous  air  and  said  he  could  not  have  any  alliance 
with  a  man  of  Parnell's  character.  That  frightened  the  Irish  mem- 
bers very  much,  because  they  counted  on  the  Liberal  alliance.  And 
Parnell  said  to  them:  "I  do  not  care  very  much  as  far  as  I  am  con- 
cerned, but  I  warn  you  that  if  you  allow  yourself  to  take  English 
dictation  now,  you  ruin  your  work  through  all  these  years."  But 
after  an  all  night  discussion  and  debate  he  was  asked  to  resign. 
That  caused  what  was  known  as  the  Parnell  split.  He  said  that 
if  they  had  asked  him  to  resign  at  the  first  meeting,  he  would  have 
resigned  at  once;  but  he  would  not  resign  because  of  a  charge 
given  them  by  an  English  statesman.     And,  of  course,  he  was  right. 


Eventually  Mr.  Redmond  became  head  of  the  Irish  party.  Mr. 
Redmond  as  a  young  man  was,  according  to  his  words  and  public 
expressions,  as  ardent  an  Irishman  as  my  brother.  But  he  did  not 
keep  up  Parnell's  policy  of  remaining  uncontaminated  by  English 
society;  and  gradually  he  seems  to  have  been  hypnotized  by  the 
imperial  idea,  and  he  began  to  speak  with  two  voices.  When  Mr. 
Redmond  came  over  to  Ireland  he  spoke  with  a  fairly  strong  voice. 
When  speaking  in  England  he  spoke  with  a  very  weak  voice.  He 
said,  at  the  latter  end  of  his  life,  words  amounting  to  this:  "I  only 
ask  you  for  Home  Rule.  We  would  not  dream  of  asking  you  for 
anything  that  would  injure  you  in  any  way  whatever.  And  any- 
thing endangering  English  freedom  or  the  British  Empire  we  will 
not  ask  you  for.  And,  therefore,  we  will  not  even  ask  you  for 
our  customs  and  excise."  When  Mr.  Redmond  said  that  he  did  not 
speak  for  the  Irish  people.  He  spoke  for  himself  and  for  a  very 
small  number  of  people  whom  we  in  Ireland  call  West  Britons — 
that  is,  those  who  ought  to  be  Irish,  but  are  very  anxious  to  re- 
main English.  We  call  them  West  Britons.  Mr.  Redmond  spoke, 
when  he  said  that,  not  for  the  Irish  nation.  The  Irish  nation  never 
agreed  with  him.  Never  once  in  any  speech  he  made  in  Ireland 
did  he  dare  to  say  anything  like  that.  The  Irish  people's  attitude 
always  was:  If  our  independence  is  going  to  hurt  the  British  Em- 
pire, so  much  the  worse  for  the  British  Empire.  They  have  no 
right  to  want  anything  that  is  inconsistent  with  the  rights  of  an- 
other nation.     The  people  began  to  get  very  angry  with  the  Na- 


tionalist    party,    and   then    a   movement   started    in    Ireland    which 
was  called  the  Sinn  Fein  movement. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  do  you  not  think  that  this 
would  be  a  good  way  to  come  at  this  Republican  movement,  to 
trace  your  own  movements  in  Ireland.  You  were  a  teacher  at 
this  time,  I  believe? 

A.     Yes,  I  have  been  a  teacher  since  1901,  when  I  left  college. 

Q.  And  you  might  state  to  the  Commission  briefly  the  general 
plans  of  the  educational  system  in  Ireland.  Are  you  a  teacher 
in  what  is  known  as  the  public  school?  Give,  if  you  will,  please, 
the  different  lines  on  which  the  educational  system  is  founded. 

A.  Our  educational  system  differs  greatly  from  yours.  I  may  not 
have  yours  very  correctly,  but  what  I  understand  by  public  schools 
in  America  are  those  financed  by  the  state,  to  which  all  people  of 
all  classes  can  go  free  of  charge;  that  in  addition  you  have  in 
America  a  good  many  private  schools;  that  these  are  mainly  for 
rich  people,  who  prefer  to  have  their  children  educated  separately; 
and  that  they  are  of  a  different  kind,  and  will,  perhaps,  give  a 
different  kind  of  education.     Is  that  not  so? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :     That  is  quite  broad. 

The  Witness:  Well,  in  England  what  you  call  public  schools  they 
call  board  schools.  Their  national  schools  are  schools  run  by  the 
Church  of  England,  and  all  other  denominations  as  well  as  the 
Church  of  England  can  have  their  private  schools,  which  can  get 
their  grant  from  the  state;  not  as  good  a  grant  as  the  board  schools 
get,  but  a  grant,  provided  they  confine  the  teaching  of  religion 
to  certain  hours  of  the  day. 

Q.  On  what  conditions  can  the  schools  get  the  government 
grant?     Is  it  based  on  examinations,  or  what? 

A.     Now  it  is  not  any  longer.     It  is  on  inspection. 

Q.     But  prior  to  the  war? 

A.  It  is  on  inspection,  and  has  been  for  some  time.  In  Ire- 
land we  have  what  is  called  the  National  Education  Act,  which 
is  the  most  unnational  thing  you  can  imagine.  The  National  Edu- 
cation Act  was  passed  in  1831.  The  object  was  to  allow  people 
of  all  classes  to  attend  schools.  It  was  the  very  first  time  that 
Catholics  were  allowed  to  be  educated.  There  was  another  Act 
passed  earlier  that  allowed  them  to  have  a  certain  amount  of 
education.     But  education  for  the  common  people  only  began  by 


this  act  of  1831.  Previously  they  got  what  education  they  could 
get  illegally.  We  had  in  Ireland  what  we  called  hedge  schools,  be- 
cause the  master  sat  under  a  hedge.  He  taught  his  pupils  in  the 
open  air  because  he  had  no  school  house.  The  National  Educa- 
tion Act  passed  in  1831  was  passed  with  the  express  purpose — 
definitely  expressed — of  denationalizing  Ireland  and  anglicizing  it. 
And  in  connection  with  that  I  would  like  to  tell  you  a  little  story. 
You  have  all  heard  of  Sir  Walter  Scott's  poetry,  and  you  know 
that  he  has  written  a  little  poem  that  begins  like  this: 

Breathes  there  a  man  with  soul  so  dead 
Who  never  to  himself  has  said, 

"This  is  my  own,  my  native  land"; 
Whose  heart  hath  ne'er  within  him  burned 
As  home  his  footsteps  he  has  turned 

From  wandering  on  a  foreign  strand. 

And  it  goes  on  to  say  that  if  there  is  such  a  man,  he  should  go 
"down  to  the  vile  depths  from  which  he  sprung,  unwept,  unhon- 
ored,  and  unsung."  When  Archbishop  Whately,  the  Protestant 
Bishop  of  Dublin,  got  together  a  number  of  clerks  and  secretaries, 
and  got  them  to  help  him  compile  books  for  the  new  national 
schools,  he  found  among  one  of  the  books,  in  revising  them,  this 
extract.  It  was  to  go  into  one  of  the  books  for  the  national  schools. 
Of  course,  that  would  never  do,  even  if  it  was  copied  from  the 
best  English  school  books.  The  secretary  who  put  that  in  prob- 
ably lost  his  job.  Archbishop  Whately  said,  "What  a  stupid  thing 
it  was  to  put  that  into  the  books,  when  what  we  want  is  to  make 
these  Irish  children  forget  they  have  a  land."  And  he  substi- 
tuted for  it  a  rhyme  which  began : 

I  thank  the  goodness  and  the  grace 

That  on  my  birth  has  smiled, 
And  made  me  in  these  blessed  days 

A  happy  English  child. 

Of  course  we  call  this  blasphemy.  We  do  not  thank  God  for  a 

I  have  told  you  that  little  story  to  give  you  the  whole  tone  of 
the  education  in  those  so-called  national  schools.  It  was  abso- 
lutely forbidden  to  speak  a  word  of  Irish  within  the  walls  of 
the  school,  and  that,  mind,  to  children  who  could  speak  nothing 
else,  because  in  those  days  Ireland  was  all  Gaelic-speaking.     Even 


the  children  were  whipped  in  school  if  they  did  not  make  haste 
and  pick  up  English.  In  addition  to  that,  no  word  of  Irish  his- 
tory was  allowed  to  be  taught  in  those  schools.  And  in  a  whole 
series  of  school  books  appointed  for  those  schools  all  over  the 
country,  Ireland  was  mentioned  twice.  On  one  occasion  the  Irish 
children  were  told  that  Ireland  was  an  island  lying  to  the  west 
of  Great  Britain;  and  in  the  other  place  they  were  told  that  Ireland 
had  been  visited  on  a  certain  date  by  her  gracious  majesty,  Queen 
Victoria.  And  that  is  the  education  the  Irish  children  growing  up 
in  the  middle  of  the  nineteenth  century  got. 

You  might  ask  me.  Why  did  the  Irish  people  accept  it?  The 
bishops  of  that  time,  with  the  exception  of  one  glorious  example, 
accepted  it  because  they  had  no  chance  to  get  at  their  children  to 
teach  them,  and  they  said,  It  is  better  for  us  to  teach  them  their 
religion  anyhow;  and  since  we  have  the  opportunity  of  teaching 
religion  for  the  first  time  without  hindrance,  let  us  accept  this 
Education  Act  with  all  its  great  drawbacks.  The  one  glorious 
bishop  who  stood  out  against  it  was  MacHale  of  Tuam.  He  said. 
"That  Education  Bill,  as  it  stands,  is  an  evil.  If  you  accept  it 
you  are  doing  no  good  to  religion  and  you  are  ruining  nationality." 
And  as  long  as  he  lived,  which  he  did  for  about  fifty  years  after 
this  act  was  passed,  he  refused  to  allow  a  single  national  school 
in  his  diocese.  Unfortunately  he  did  not  live  long  enough.  But 
that  is  the  sort  of  education  our  children  are  getting.  But  our 
children — if  you  will  let  me  use  the  word — of  the  better  class 
people — (I  hate  to  use  it  because  I  am  a  thorough  democrat,  but 
I  will  use  it  here) — these  children  attend  private  schools.  The 
better-off  people  send  their  children  to  be  educated  in  England, 
and  naturallv  thev  come  back  very  English. 


In  1869  the  Irish  Church  was  disestablished,  and  there  was  a 
great  deal  of  money  left  over.  And  there  was  one  and  a  quarter 
million  of  that — 

Q.     One  million  pounds  or  one  million  dollars? 

A.     0,  pounds — about  five  million  dollars  that  would  be. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Not  at  the  present  rate  of  exchange. 

The  Witness:  Will  you  allow  me  to  use  pounds,  because  it  i? 
difficult  for  me  to  think  in  terms  of  dollars?  Well,  a  great  deal 
of  money  was  devoted  to  education,  secondary  education,  educa- 
tion for  those  who  could  afford  to  stay  in  school  up  to  eighteen. 


The  national  schools  only  prepared  up  to  fourteen.  For  those  who 
could  afford  to  go  on  to  the  university  these  secondary  schools 
were  endowed  from  part  of  the  money  left  from  disestablishing 
the  Irish  Church.  The  system  of  education  was  that  the  Board 
laid  down  a  certain  program.  Any  school  of  any  denomination 
could  teach  that  program,  and  might  enroll  themselves  as  an 
Intermediate  school  provided  they  had  seven  pupils.  They  got  a 
grant,  after  their  pupils  could  pass  this  examination,  which  was 
divided  into  various  grades.  In  the  beginning  they  did  very  well, 
because  there  were  not  very  many  children,  and  there  was  no 
system  of  crams.  But  as  the  number  of  children  increased  and  the 
money  did  not  increase,  of  course  the  tendency  was  that  the  prizes 
and  the  grant  had  to  be  divided  up  among  a  great  number  of 
people,  and  got  so  small  it  could  not  finance  education.  A  little 
more  money  was  given;  and  I  would  like  to  point  out  to  you  here 
where  this  money  came  from.  A  certain  proportion  of  the  whiskey 
tax  was  devoted  to  education.  The  result  was  this:  If  our  people 
were  sober,  there  was  very  little  money  for  education.  If  they  got 
drunk,  there  might  be  a  little  more.  But  the  total  sum  devoted  to 
education  in  Ireland  was  about  forty-five  thousand  pounds  a  year. 
That  education  became  a  cram  system.  There  were  certain  books 
prescribed.  Much  depended  upon  the  teacher;  but  nearly  all  the 
teachers  in  Ireland  at  the  present  day  were  brought  up  on  that 
system  themselves.     Cram  for  examinations;  no  real  development. 


For  a  long  time  Irish — the  Gaelic  language — was  not  allowed 
at  all.  Irish  history  was  not  allowed.  I  may  as  well  tell  you, 
incidentally,  that  when  I  was  going  to  school  in  my  own  native 
city  of  Cork,  I  never  learned  one  line  of  Irish  history.  It  was 
only  about  two  years  before  I  left  school  and  the  history  class 
that  Irish  history  was  allowed,  with  much  fear  and  trembling, 
to  be  taught.  And  then  it  was  not  Irish  history,  but  it  was  the 
history  of  England  in  Ireland.  That  was  what  was  called  Irish 
history.  But  some  of  us  did  not  confine  ourselves  to  that.  We 
learned  a  little  more.  How  much  you  learned  depended  upon 
what  sort  of  a  family  you  came  from — what  England  would  call  a 
rebellious  strain.  Therefore  the  majority  of  the  people,  who  were 
in  the  hard  struggle  for  existence,  knew  nothing  about  Irish  his- 
tory. And  that  has  given  England  a  chance  to  say  the  Irish  people 
do  not  want  independence.     The  Irish  people  do  want  independ- 


ence,  but  because  of  their  bad  education  they  do  not  know  how  to 
express  their  desires. 

Another  thing  I  would  like  you  to  know  about  education  in  the 
secondary  and  national  schools  is  that  there  is  one  set  of  people 
in  Ireland  that  were  not  there  in  Archbishop  MacHale's  time.  They 
refused  to  go  under  the  Board  of  National  Education.  They  were 
the  Christian  Brothers.  The  Christian  Brothers  refused  it  because 
you  had  to  confine  religious  education  in  schools  to  one-half  hour 
a  dav,  and  you  had  to  use  books  appointed  by  the  national  board, 
and  those  books  omitted  all  mention  of  Irish  history,  about  Irish 
heroes,  or  a  single  word  about  a  martyr  or  a  saint  whatever.  And 
the  Christian  Brothers  would  not  have  that  system,  and  they  adopted 
books  of  their  own,  which  are  very  fine  books.  And  perhaps  the 
reason  that  the  men  of  Ireland  are  better  educated  and  know  more 
about  the  history  of  their  land  than  the  women  do,  is  that  the 
men  have  been  educated  by  the  Christian  Brothers  and  the  women 
have  been  educated  in  the  national  schools  or  anglicizing  secondary 

Commissioner  Addams:    But  there  is  one  exception. 

The  Witness:  0,  Miss  Addams,  there  are  many  exceptions.  But 
I  am  talking  about  what  the  government  gave  us  and  not  what  we 
gave  ourselves. 

About  the  second  schools:  the  anglicizing  influence  of  the  sec- 
ondary schools  was  much  greater  than  the  anglicizing  influence  of 
the  national  schools,  because  it  was  fashionable  to  ape  England. 
And  there  was  a  certain  class  of  people  in  Ireland  who  were  the 
outcome  of  this  system  of  education.  I  think  they  probably  would 
be  much  worse  in  any  other  country  than  our  own.  But  they 
were  ashamed  to  be  Irish.  They  all  of  them  finished  their  educa- 
tion in  England,  and  they  were  so  happy  if  by  any  chance  they 
were  mistaken  for  Englishmen.  That  type  of  man  is  hopeless  in 
a  country.  And  you  have  no  idea  how  hard  we  had  to  fight  to 
kill  this  influence,  but  thank  God  it  is  dead. 

The  influence  of  all  the  secondary  schools  in  Ireland  made  it 
seem  fashionable  to  be  English.  So  when  the  Sinn  Fein  move- 
ment started  in  1905,  you  might  be  quite  sure  of  this,  that  the 
meaning  of  it  was  neither  understood  nor  appreciated  in  the 
schools — the  upper  class  schools,  the  fashionable  schools  of  Ire- 
land. The  system  in  those  schools  was  English.  It  was  an  angliciz- 
ing influence  entirely.  I  am  sorry  to  say  that  it  was  largely  car- 
ried on  by  religious  denominations,  by  the  nuns,  who  were  afraid. 
They  were  very  timid,  and  were  afraid  to  be  anything  except  con- 
ventional.     They    are    different    now,    of    course.      They    followed 

196  , 

suit  when  the  times  have  become  Republican.  And  even  then 
there  were  many  bold  exceptions.  But  that  was  the  run  of  the 
secondary  schools. 


I  will  have  to  digress  from  the  educational  question  to  explain 
Sum  Fein.  Sinn  Fein  with  us  today  means  the  party  which  follows 
the  Republican  policy — what  Ireland  is  today.  I  have  seen  in 
American  papers,  for  instance,  "The  Sinn  Fein,"  as  if  Sinn  Fein 
were  a  people.  Now,  Sinn  Fein  is  a  policy,  as  you  have  the 
Democratic  policy  and  the  Republican  policy. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  We  do  not  have  it  now.  We  used  to 
have  it. 

The  Witness:  Like  we  used  to  have  West  Britons  in  Ireland? 
Well,  I  do  not  know  enough  about  your  policies  to  know  if  they 
are  a  good  thing  or  a  bad  thing,  but  if  you  Americans  want  it, 
that  is  your  business.  Now,  Sinn  Fein  is  a  policy,  but  the  Irish 
Republic  is  a  country.  Suppose,  for  instance,  I  asked  you  what 
nationality  you  were,  and  you  told  me  you  were  Democratic.  I 
am  quite  sure  that  your  countrymen,  your  fellow-citizens,  would 
resent  that  very  much.  A  Democrat  is  a  member  of  a  particular 
organization  or  a  particular  party.  Sinn.  Fein  is  a  policy,  but 
the  Irish  Republic  Government  is  the  authorized  recognized  gov- 
ernment of  the  Irish  people,  their  chosen  government.  And  so  we 
do  not  call  ourselves  Sinn  Feiners.  We  call  ourselves  Irish  Re- 
publicans, just  as  you  call  yourselves  Americans.  We  may  have 
a  Sinn  Fein  policy,  or  some  other  kind  of  policy,  within  our  own 

I  will  tell  you  where  the  confusion  comes.  When  Parnell  and 
Redmond  had  failed  to  secure  even  a  measure  of  freedom  for 
Ireland,  Arthur  Griffith,  who  was  founder  of  the  Sinn  Fein  policy 
and  vice-president  of  our  Republic  today,  took  a  different  policy. 
He  wanted  a  reversion  to  the  Grattan  Parliament  of  1782,  with 
proper  representative  franchise  and  an  executive  which  would  be 
subject  to  Parliament.  Grattan's  Parliament,  while  it  did  a  great 
deal  of  good,  had  none  of  these.  It  had  a  strictly  confined  fran- 
chise, and  the  executive  was  under  the  control  of  England.  He 
said,  We  are  to  reach  this  goal  by  a  policy  of  self-reliance.  He 
took  the  name  Sinn  Fein,  which  simply  is  the  Irish  word  for 
"ourselves."  And  he  took  it  as  a  policy  of  self-reliance.  Up  to 
that  time  we  had  been  working  at  Westminster  for  a  very  long  time 
to  see  what  we  could  get  out  of  Westminster.     We  also  had  our 


eyes  on  America  to  see  if  there  would  be  anything  good  coining 
from  that  quarter.  During  1798,  when  we  were  ;it  open  war  with 
England,  we  looked  to  the  French  for  help.  But  Griffith  said. 
There  is  no  good  casting  your  eyes  to  the  ends  of  the  earth.  Only 
the  fools*  eves  arc  there.  Vie  can  do  a  good  deal  more  at  home. 
We  can  develop  our  industries.  We  can  study  the  Irish  language. 
The  Gaelic  League  had  started  some  years  before  that.  He  made 
the  main  plank  in  his  policy   abstention  from  Westminster. 

That  was  the  policy  of  Sinn  Fein.  The  reversion  to  Grattan's 
Parliament  meant  a  separate  Parliament  for  Ireland.  He  took 
Parnell's  view  that  you  cannot  put  bounds  to  the  onward  march 
of  a  nation.  But  although  he  wanted  a  different  Parliament,  there 
would  be  the  same  king  over  both  countries.  That  was  the  original 
policy  of  Sinn  Fein.  The  name  has  stuck  to  what  has  been  the 
policy  of  the  Irish  people  all  along — utter  and  entire  independence. 
Certain  of  us  in  Ireland  have  never  joined  Sinn  Fein.  My  brother 
was  never  a  member  of  any  Sinn  Fein  club,  simply  because  it  was 
not  expressly  Republican.  It  was  implied.  But  he  took  the  atti- 
tude that  the  mere  repression  of  the  statement  that  we  are  aiming 
at  a  Republic  is  a  compromise.  And  we  stand  where  Wolfe  Tone 
stood.  So  he  said,  We  will  not  join  Sinn  Fein.  But  he  helped  it, 
especially  the  policy  of  the  development  of  Irish  industry.  He 
worked  for  the  policy  of  Sinn  Fein  without  ever  declaring  himself 
a  Sinn  Feiner. 

Q.     How  old  was  your  brother  when  he  died? 

A.     Forty. 


Q.  I  think  it  might  be  well  to  develop  your  statement  along  that 
line,  by  a  statement  of  your  brother's  activities. 

A.     I  am  afraid  I  would  be  too  long. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  might  say  to  the  Commission  that,  riding 
over  on  the  train  with  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  found  she  knows  much 
more  about  this  than  any  of  us.  She  asked  me  to  make  suggestions 
from  time  to  time  that  might  keep  the  narrative  in  order  and  get 
everything  in.  I  just  made  that  suggestion.  Of  course,  if  it  does 
not  fit  there,  Miss  MacSwiney  should  go  on. 

The  Witness:  The  only  reason  I  hesitated  was  that  the  Com- 
mission might  sit  for  a  whole  week  and  ask  me  questions  and  yet 
not  get  to  the  end  of  the  story.  I  am  at  your  disposal  as  long  as 
you  like. 

In    regard    to    my    brother's    activities.      Perhaps    that    would    be 


interesting  just  at  this  point.  I  might  say  that  we  have  always  been 
Republican.  Not  only  all  our  lives,  but  all  our  generations.  We 
came  down  from  the  north  of  Ireland,  where  our  family  originally 
came  from  in  the  thirteenth  century,  and  we  settled  in  County 
Cork  in  the  fourteenth  century.  And  I  think  there  are  very  few 
generations  or  fights  since  when  we  have  not  given  some  sort  of 
account  of  ourselves.  Writing  in  the  days  of  Elizabeth,  a  certain 
one  of  her  ministers,  Sir  Henry  Bagenal,  said  of  Ireland — he 
wanted  at  that  time  to  capture  the  young  Red  Hugh  O'Donnell,  the 
chieftain  of  the  north,  and  he  was  very  exercised  because  the  leader 
of  the  MacSwineys  of  that  day  was  the  guardian  and  foster-father 
of  young  Red  Hugh.  In  those  days  in  Ireland  there  was  the  prac- 
tice of  fosterage.  It  meant  that  the  sons  of  the  chief  of  one  family 
were  sent  to  the  chiefs  of  other  tribes  to  be  educated.  And  young 
Red  Hugh  O'Donnell  had  been  sent  to  MacSwiney  of  the  Battle 
Axes  to  be  educated,  because  he  was  the  greatest  chieftain  of  the 
North.  The  MacSwineys  were  always  a  great  military  power  there. 
So  Sir  Henry  Bagenal,  writing  to  Queen  Elizabeth,  said,  "Your 
Majesty,  if  I  could  only  manage  to  get  rid  of  this  MacSwiney,  I 
would  be  able  to  capture  Red  Hugh.  I  think  I  have  a  plan." 
He  had  a  plan.  He  succeeded  in  capturing  him  by  duplicity.  It 
is  not  necessary  to  tell  you  that  story. 

Besides  being  great  military  chieftains,  the  MacSwineys  had 
great  characters  even  in  those  days.  I  hope  you  will  not  think  me 
blowing  a  family  trumpet,  but  since  it  is  a  great  many  generations 
back,  it  will  not  make  any  difference.  They  had  a  characteristic 
even  in  those  days  of  being  honest,  and  an  honest  person  is  at  a 
disadvantage  in  dealing  with  rogues,  because  they  give  the  others 
credit  for  being  honest,  too.  So  this  MacSwiney,  being  honest, 
went  aboard  an  apparently  harmless  merchant  ship  that  came  to 
port.  He  went  on  board  to  pay  a  friendly,  courteous  visit  to  the 
captain.  While  they  were  in  the  cabin  on  this  friendly,  courteous 
visit,  the  hatches  were  closed  down  on  them,  the  anchors  loosened, 
and  they  were  taken  prisoners  to  Dublin,  which  was  about  the 
only  place  Queen  Elizabeth  had  for  herself  in  Ireland.  That  was 
the  history  of  the  MacSwineys  of  those  days. 

The  family  eventually  came  south  and  settled  in  County  Cork, 
and  there  is  hardly  a  place  in  the  whole  barony  of  Muskerry,  as 
they  called  that  country  in  those  days,  where  our  family  had  not 
built  castles.  There  are  still  ruins  all  around  County  Cork  be- 
longing to  them.  In  Cromwell's  time  we  went  the  way  of  all  the 
Irish  chieftains.  Cromwell  took  the  land  and  gave  it  lo  one  of 
his  troopers  named  Sweet.     And  the  Sweets  held  that  land,   and 


some  of  this  family  hold  it  still.  They  thus  became  the  so-called 

All  the  Irish  chieftains,  when  they  were  dispossessed  of  their 
land,  hated  to  go  away.  They  preferred  to  work  as  laborers  on 
the  meanest  little  farm  than  to  leave  Ireland  and  their  native  soil. 
There  is  an  extraordinary  attachment  to  the  very  sod  of  the  earth 
in  an  Irish  heart.  These  people  did  not  leave  the  county.  They 
took  service  as  laborers,  and  became  small  farmers  when  it  got 
possible  to  buy  a  farm,  and  stayed  there.  There  actually  is  at  this 
present  day  a  direct  descendant  of  the  MacSwineys  living  on  a  farm 
on  the  grounds  where  are  the  ruins  of  his  ancestral  castle.  He  is 
also  Terence  MacSwiney. 

Chairman  Howe:  Just  a  moment.  I  notice  Senator  Gore  in  the 
rear  of  the  hall.      (Applause.) 

As  you  all  know,  no  man  in  the  United  States  Senate  has  been 
interested  more  earnestly  in  human  questions  than  Senator  Gore. 
We  would  like  to  have  him  come  forward.  (Continued  applause. 
Senator  Gore  is  ushered  to  the  Commissioners'  bench.) 

Chairman  Howe:    Miss  MacSwiney  will  proceed. 


The  Witness:  You  have  been  kind  enough  to  ask  me  for  some  of 
our  family  history.  I  do  not  want  to  spend  too  long  on  it.  I 
want  to  get  my  brother's  particular  part.  Just  before  the  famine 
period  our  family  moved  to  Bandon.  My  grandfather  was  mar- 
ried twice.  They  were  there  during  the  period  of  the  famine. 
My  grandmother  used  to  tell  me  very  many  stories  when  I  was  a 
child.  I  am  using  the  word  famine  because  it  is  so  familiar  to 
say  it  like  that,  but  I  want  to  emphasize  it  once  more  that  it  was 
not  a  famine,  in  a  country  where  the  fields  were  growing  beautiful 
rich  corn  and  where  there  was  meat  and  butter  in  plenty.  There  is 
no  famine  in  that  country.  It  was  organized  starvation.  My  father 
was  only  a  little  boy,  only  a  child,  at  the  time  of  the  famine.  When 
he  was  growing  up  they  removed  to  the  City  of  Cork.  Of  course 
you  can  understand  the  want  of  employment  there  is  in  an  unde- 
veloped country.  Some  of  you  have  been  in  our  country  and 
you  must  have  noticed  how  undeveloped  it  is — no  factories;  even 
the  very  fields  undeveloped.  The  cause  of  that  is  not  laziness,  as 
you  have  been  often  told.  It  is  a  fact  that  we  have  not  been  allowed 
to  develop  our  country.  So  my  father  went  to  England  and  worked 
there  for  a  while,  and  there  got  married.  He  returned  to  Ireland 
somewhere  about   1880  or  1881.  I  am  not  sure  of  the  dates.     He 


joined  his  brother-in-law  in  a  partnership  as  a  tobacco  manufac- 
turer. The  partnership  did  not  turn  out  very  successfully,  and  he 
started  afterwards  himself,  but  again  he  did  not  succeed  very  well. 
Matters  were  against  him,  and  so  the  business  was  closed.  My 
father  died  when  we  were  children.  I  think  the  last  time — he  died 
away  from  home,  where  he  had  to  go  for  his  health,  and  my  brother 
Terence  was  only  about  eight  when  he  saw  his  father  for  the  last 
time.  But  even  so,  there  were  a  lot  of  old  family  customs  which 
he  had  put  into  us  children — the  spirit  of  the  family.  One  of  them 
was  that  every  Sunday  afternoon  we  had  to  learn  a  little  poem 
about  Ireland  for  my  father.  We  generally  stood  with  our  backs 
to  the  dining-room  door,  and  recited  for  him.  Terence  was  the 
last  that  ever  did  that.  He  was  only  eight  when  my  father  died. 
We  had  to  learn  some  little  poem  and  it  had  to  be  about  Ireland. 
We  learned  T.  D.  Sullivan's  poems;  Thomas  Davis'  poems,  all 
of  them  of  an  insurrectionary  character.  And  I  think  that  the  more 
fiery  the  poem  was,  the  bigger  reward  we  got.  I  remember  get- 
ting a  bright,  new  sixpence  when  I  recited  "The  Death  of  Owen 
Roe  O'Neill."  It  was  a  very  fiery  poem,  indeed,  and  two  whole 
verses  were  taken  up  with  curses  on  England.  I  was  about  nine 
when  I  recited  that.  My  mother  was  very  shocked,  and  I  heard 
her  say  in  an  undertone  to  my  father,  "Really,  that  child  should 
not  use  such  frightful  language."  He  said  he  didn't  think  it  would 
do  me  any  harm. 


My  brother  went  to  school  to  the  Christian  Brothers,  but  he  was 
not  satisfied  with  it.  It  was  not  a  national  school,  as  has  been 
stated;  but  it  was  so  far  ahead  of  the  others  that  we  gave  them 
credit  for  having  the  only  Irish  schools  in  Ireland.  He  went  in 
for  the  Intermediate  examinations  and  got  exhibitions — that  is,  a 
money  prize  in  each  class.  He  left  school  when  he  was  about  six- 
teen and  went  into  business.  In  normal  times  and  in  less  strenuous 
conditions,  as  far  as  money  went,  he  would  have  remained  at 
school  and  entered  a  college  course,  and  would  have  become  a 
writer  or  a  poet.  But  he  had  to  leave  school,  because  the  family 
was  not  well  off,  and  entered  business.  He  did  not  like  business. 
And  he  educated  himself  and  was  able  to  take  a  university  degree, 
and  he  became  a  Bachelor  of  Arts.  Not  only  that,  but  he  did  a 
great  deal  of  writing  besides.  He  wrote  poems.  In  looking  through 
his  papers  after  his  death  I  came  across  the  letter  that   I  myself 


wrote  him  congratulating  him  on  the  first  poem  that  was  published 
over  his  name.  He  became  very  interested  in  national  things. 
There  is  a  society  in  Cork  called  the  Celtic  Literary  Society.  1 
think  he  must  have  been  about  seventeen  when  he  was  one  of  the 
founders  of  that.  It  was  a  body  of  young  men  animated  by  the 
Republican  ideal.  They  used  to  meet  together  after  business  hours; 
they  read  and  wrote  essays,  and  brought  out  a  little  magazine  that 
circulated  among  a  certain  crowd.  And  that  Celtic  Literary  So- 
ciety did  develop  other  national  activities.  The  thing  that  stands 
most  to  its  credit  is  the  Irish  Industrial  Development  Associa- 
tion, which  is  one  of  the  things  those  young  men  started.  I  told 
you  that  he  never  joined  Arthur  Griffith's  Sinn  Fein  Society  be- 
cause it  was  not  primarily  for  Republican  independence,  but  he 
worked  along  that  line,  as  far  as  it  went,  and  with  one  or  two 
others  was  responsible  for  the  founding  of  the  Irish  Industrial 
Development  Association. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :    You  might  sketch  that. 

The  Witness:  It  was  really  a  society  strictly  non-political  and 
non-sectarian,  and  formed  for  the  especial  purpose  of  developing 
Irish  industries — to  make  the  people  of  Ireland, — who  had  been 
avoiding  Irish  goods  without  any  thought, — to  buy  Irish  goods 
wherever  they  could  get  them.  They  started  industries.  It  spread 
from  Cork  to  Dublin,  and  naturally  Dublin,  being  the  capital, 
became  the  center.  But  Cork  has  the  honor  of  starting  it.  Mr. 
Fawsitt,  who  is  now  the  Consul-General  of  the  Irish  Republic  here, 
was  secretary  in  Cork  for  many  years.  He  was  considered  the 
best  man  to  send  over  here  for  that  reason.  The  fact  that  we  have 
a  consul  here  today,  and  have  a  consul  in  almost  every  European 
country,  entirely  against  the  wishes  of  Great  Britain,  is  entirely 
due  to  my  brother  and  his  comrades  who  started  this  society  in 
Cork  in  1901,  I  think.  It  might  be  a  year  one  way  or  another. 
That  was  one  of  his  activities. 


Another  was  the  Gaelic  League.  This  was  a  society,  also  non- 
sectarian  and  non-political,  for  the  purpose  of  developing  the 
Irish  language  and  making  the  people  Irish-speaking  again.  The 
soul  of  a  people  is  expressed  in  its  langauge.  And  if  you  speak 
a  foreign  language  continuously,  you  will  naturally  develop  the 
soul  of  that  language  within  you.  The  great  anglicizing  power 
that  England  had  over  Ireland  was  in  that  she  had  almost  killed 


the  Irish  language.  She  was  very  clever  in  her  propaganda.  It 
is  a  great  mistake  to  think  that  England  is  not  a  clever  nation. 
She  is  very  clever  and  very  insidious  in  her  propaganda.  She 
never  said  to  the  people  outright,  You  shall  not  speak  Irish.  But 
she  took  the  children  and  educated  it  out  of  them.  There  is  a 
little  verse  about  the  truth  coming  out  in  spite  of  oneself,  like 
the  story  I  told  you  of  Archbishop  Whately  and  the  verse  of  Sir 
Walter  Scott.  When  Lloyd  George  said  the  other  day,  when  Irish 
atrocities  were  mentioned  in  the  House  of  Commons,  that  those 
things  will  happen  in  a  state  of  war,  he  thereby  admitted  that 
there  was  a  state  of  war  in  Ireland.  And  so  you  get  the  truth  out 
like  that  occasionally  in  a  moment  of  high  pressure. 

About  the  Gaelic  League.  We  wanted  to  renationalize  the  minds 
of  the  people,  and  that  could  best  be  done  by  the  Gaelic  language. 
And  so  classes  all  over  the  country  started  up  for  the  teaching 
of  Gaelic.  Old  men  and  young  men  who  knew  the  Gaelic  language 
well,  v/herever  they  could  be  found,  were  brought  into  the  cities 
and  set  to  work  as  teachers.  You  could  see  them  night  after  night 
in  stuffy  rooms, — mainly  because  most  of  these  people  were  poor. 
They  had  no  money  back  of  them  to  help  their  propaganda.  They 
worked  hard  during  the  day,  and  at  night  sat  around  the  table 
there  in  these  little  rooms  and  studied  Gaelic  and  made  them- 
selves Gaelic  speakers. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  to  what  extent  in  the  last 
ten  or  fifteen  years  has  the  speaking  of  the  Gaelic  language  been 
extended  among  the  Irish  people? 

A.  I  could  not  give  you  the  exact  statistics,  but  it  has  devel- 
oped very  wonderfully.  For  instance,  when  those  young  men 
began  to  learn  the  Gaelic  language,  they  were  looked  upon  as 
curios.  Their  own  people  could  not  understand.  They  said,  What 
is  the  use  of  that  outlandish  thing?  But  they  persevered,  and  now 
today  the  person  who  cannot  speak  Gaelic  is  ashamed  of  himself 
or  herself. 

Q.  It  is  then  exceptional  to  find  anyone  who  cannot  speak 

A.  It  is  the  exception  to  find  anyone  who  is  not  trying.  It  is 
very  easy  to  find  some  who  cannot  hold  a  good  conversation  in 

Q.  And  that  has  all  been  acquired  through  private  instruction? 
There  has  been  no  public  instruction? 

A.  None  whatever  at  first.  But  they  forced  the  Irish  language 
into  the  schools.  They  started  a  propaganda  in  the  newspapers 
and  succeeded  in  getting  Gaelic  into  the  schools.     But  it  is  taught 


as  a  foreign  language,  and  in  our  own  country!  In  our  own 
schools  our  own  language  is  taught  as  a  foreign  language!  The 
development  of  Gaelic  today  was  caused  by  a  handful  of  enthu- 
siasts who  had  the  idea  and  persevered.  The  Gaelic  League  was 
non-sectarian  and  non-political,  and  they  got  into  it  a  good  many 
people  who  were  interested  in  the  language,  perhaps,  from  an 
historical  point  of  view,  perhaps  from  a  literary  point  of  view;  and 
these  people  joined  in  because  it  was  non-secretarian  and  non- 
political.  But  those  who  remained  and  made  themselves  speakers 
of  the  language  had  the  right  idea,  the  right  Irish  idea  behind  them. 


In  addition  to  that,  my  brother  aided  a  great  many  other  activi- 
ties. There  was  considerable  English  propaganda  going  on.  These 
young  men  started  themselves  to  counteract  this  propaganda.  Part 
of  this  English  propaganda  consisted  of  visits  of  royal  personages 
to  Ireland.  When  these  royal  persons  were  coming,  there  was 
always  a  great  effort  to  get  loyal  addresses  from  corporations 
and  like  bodies.  That  succeeded  for  very  many  years.  Then  this 
body  of  young  men  took  it  upon  themselves  to  see  that  that  did  not 
succeed  any  more.  In  1906  or  1907,  when  the  late  King  Edward 
was  visiting  Ireland,  they  had  a  little  room  up  over  the  street, 
and  they  hung  out  a  black  flag  instead  of  the  union  jack.  They 
hissed  and  booed  a  great  deal.  Of  course,  needless  to  say,  the 
police  were  down  on  them,  but  they  did  not  care  about  that.  They 
took  good  care  to  see  that  the  corporations  did  not  pass  a  loyal 
address,  and  the  corporations  did  not. 

All  these  things  are  small,  but  it  is  out  of  those  that  our  success 
has  come  today.  Not  that  the  soul  of  Ireland  was  not  always 
Republican. — I  should  like  to  get  that  into  your  heads;  but  it  is 
because  it  is  more  successfully  Republican.  As  Mr.  Griffith  said 
in  a  message  to  some  people  in  America,  "Today  is  our  Valley 
Forge;  tomorrow  will  be  our  Yorktown."  But  if  I  am  not  mis- 
taken, at  your  Valley  Forge  the  soldiers  had  to  bear  the  brunt 
of  the  suffering.  But  in  our  Valley  Forge  the  women  and  chil 
dren  have  to  bear  the  brunt  of  the  sufferings.  But  our  turn  is 
coming  tomorrow,  as  surely  as  yours  came. 

That  represents  the  activities  of  my  brother. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  I  ask  if  the  telegram  that  came 
from  the  Cork  Chamber  of  Commerce,  that  came  to  this  country  to 
protest  against  ships  not  stopping  at  Queenstown,  was  that  a  part 
of  your  brother's  movement? 


A.     Yes,  they  started  that,  but  it  was  years  afterwards. 

Q.  But  after  this,  this  Commission  came  to  America  of  which 
Mr.  Fawsitt  was  a  member,  and  it  is  as  a  result  of  their  efforts  that 
there  is  a  line  of  ships  running  to  Ireland  such  as  we  have  today? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  this  work  was  or  was  not  a  good  thing 
for  the  industries  of  Ireland? 

A.  Of  course,  it  has  made  our  industries  much  more  pros- 
perous. It  has  given  employment  to  hundreds  of  thousands  of 
people.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was  out  of  the  Industrial  Devel- 
opment Association  that  the  cooperative  creamery  movement  was 
started  by  Sir  Horace  Plunkett.  Everybody  realized  that  the 
country  should  be  developed,  and  they  started  where  they  could. 
And  then  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  started  his  creameries  all  over  the 
country,  which  the  English  are  now  burning  to  ruin  the  industry. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Where  were  we? 


A.  I  am  coming  to  the  Volunteer  movement.  You  remember 
that  there  was  a  Home  Rule  Bill  introduced  in  Parliament  in  1912, 
one  of  many.  It  was  in  the  hope  of  stopping  all  this  activity 
and  getting  the  people  to  accept  definitely  Home  Rule  in  the 
British  Empire,— which  would,  of  course,  leave  England's  hands 
in  our  pockets  all  the  time.  It  was  absolutely  no  use,  that  Home 
Rule  Bill  of  1912,  except  that  it  would  be  centering  Irish  inter- 
ests in  Dublin  instead  of  London.  I  said  that  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith's 
policy  in  the  old  days  was  abstention  from  Westminster.  West- 
minster, of  course,  means  the  English  Houses  of  Parliament.  The 
only  good  that  a  Home  Rule  Bill  would  have  done  would  be  that 
the  center  of  gravity  would  have  been  shifted  from  London  to  Ire- 
land. That  would  have  had  a  very  great  effect.  The  people  would 
have  said  then,  Why  should  we  have  so  little  when  we  might  have 
had  more?  Sir  Edward  Carson  said  he  did  not  want  Home 
Rule.  He  started  in  1913  the  idea  of  forcible  resistance  to  Home 
Rule.  He  said,  "Ulster  will  fight  and  Ulster  will  be  right."  He 
said  a  great  many  other  things.  The  main  thing  is  that  he  got 
guns  and  ammunition,  and  he  got  them  from  Germany.  He  also 
said,  We  will  not  come  under  a  Catholic  government,  and  if 
the  English  people  throw  us  over,  we  will  enroll  ourselves  under 
the  greatest  Protestant  nation  in  the  world,  under  the  German 
nation."  He  said  he  would  invite  the  German  emperor  over  himself 
if  the  English  forced  Home  Rule  upon  them. 


Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Are  these  things  matters  of  public  record? 

A.  0,  yes,  absolutely.  They  are  in  all  the  English  papers  and 
Irish  papers  of  the  time.  You  will  find  them  in  book  form,  Sir 
Edward  Carson's  statements.  They  have  been  collected  together  by 
an  Irish  Republican  and  put  into  book  form  and  called,  "The 
Grammar  of  Anarchy."  When  Sir  Edward  Carson  made  those 
statements,  he  got  something  like  two  million  pounds  from  Eng- 
land for  propaganda,  and  also  the  promise  that  the  English  Tories 
would  fight  with  them.  He  also  stirred  up  a  revolt  at  the  Curragh 
camp,  and  the  British  officers  in  the  Curragh  camp  said  they  would 
not,  if  they  were  ordered,  go  and  put  down  a  revolution  in  the 
Covenanters'  camp.  They  were  called  Covenanters  because  they 
covenanted  together  that  they  would  not  have  Home  Rule;  they 
would  have  the  Castle  code.  We  were  very  happy  when  we  knew 
what  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  doing.  His  statements  have  been 
collected  in  book  form,  as  I  said.  One  Sinn  Feiner  got  some- 
thing like  six  months'  imprisonment  for  having  in  his  possession 
seditious  literature,  and  the  only  seditious  literature  he  had  in  his 
possession,  besides  a  few  newspapers,  was  Sid  Edward  Carson's 


Sir  Edward  Carson  started  the  Volunteers.  There  was  always 
an  Act  in  Ireland  that  you  must  not  have  arms  in  your  possession. 
It  was  not  enforced,  however.  Sir  Edward  Carson  succeeded  in 
getting  a  large  quantity  of  arms  presently.  We  looked  on  and 
said  nothing.  We  let  Sir  Edward  Carson  and  his  Volunteers  get 
along  splendidly.  If  we  could  have  patted  him  on  the  back,  we 
would  have  told  him  to  go  ahead.  He  went  ahead  a  good  while. 
And  then  our  people  in  the  south  began  to  say  publicly,  Well,  of 
course,  if  Sir  Edward  Carson  is  getting  armed  for  a  march  on 
Cork,  we  will  have  to  arm  also.  And  then  they  started  the  Irish 
Volunteers.  England  was  in  a  fix.  She  had  patted  Sir  Edward 
Carson  on  the  back  when  he  formed  the  Ulster  Volunteers.  Eng- 
lish societies  had  been  organized  to  subscribe  money  for  drums 
for  these  Ulster  Volunteers.  The  English  Government  had  looked 
on  with  a  more  or  less  benevolent  eye.  And  then  if  she  had  said, 
There  must  be  no  Irish  Volunteers,  the  world  would  have  said, 
That  is  not  impartial.  But  within  one  week  of  our  starting  the 
Irish    Volunteers,    the    Arms    Act   was    enforced    and    the    Govern- 


ment  said,  No  arms  in  Ireland.  Within  one  week!  Sir  Edward 
Carson  had  been  getting  arms  for  several  months. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  date  was  this? 

A.  This  was  somewhere  in  the  early  days  of  1914,  in  the  spring, 
before  the  War.     He  got  a  boat 

Q.     Had  the  Home  Rule  Bill  passed  passed  Parliament? 

A.  It  had  passed  the  House  of  Commons  in  1912,  but  on  ac- 
count of  the  House  of  Lords  it  had  been  suspended  for  two  years. 

Q.     It  passed  the  House  of  Commons  in  1912? 

A.  Yes,  and  it  went  to  the  House  of  Lords,  and  the  House  of 
Lords  threw  it  out. 

Q.     What  date  was  it  passed? 

A.     In  1914. 

Q.     After  the  War? 

A.     After  the  War,  yes;  after  the  Recruiting  Act. 

Q.  But  it  was  known  in  1914  that  it  would  be  passed, — it  was 
known   before  the  War? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  that  these  preparations  that  were  made  were  in  prepara- 
tion for  the  Act? 

A.     Yes. 


In  the  spring  of  1914  a  ship  loaded  with  arms  set  out  from 
Germany  for  Sid  Edward  Carson.  The  English  government  knew 
perfectly  well  what  was  being  done,  and  that  those  arms  were 
going  to  Sir  Edward  Carson.  There  was  a  little  camouflage  done. 
The  boat  started  with  one  name  from  Hamburg  and  was  stopped 
in  midocean  and  repainted  and  renamed,  and  came  into  Larne, 
which  is  one  of  the  Orange  ports  up  there.  The  policemen  are 
all  Orangemen.  They  were  all  sympathetic  with  Sir  Edward  Car- 
son. It  was  absolutely  contrary  to  law,  of  course,  but  that  made 
no  matter.  The  guns  were  safely  landed  in  Larne  and  safely 
stored.  And  the  next  morning  it  was  all  over  the  English  and 
Irish  press.  The  English  Parliament  held  up  their  hands  in  horror. 
It  was  a  very  illegal  act,  said  Mr.  Asquith,  but  he  made  no  motion 
to  punish  that  act.  Well,  we  will  take  a  good  example  from  peo- 
ple when  we  get  it;  and  as  we  followed  the  Irish  Volunteers  after 
the  Ulster  Volunteers,  we  were  not  too  proud  to  follow  Sir  Edward 
Carson  in  gun-running.  And  the  last  week  in  July,  1914,  the 
Howth  gun-running  took  place.     I  was  in  England  at  the  time  on  a 


little  holiday.  The  Howth  gun-running — now  notice  the  difference. 
The  Ulster  gun-running  was  in  support  of  what  England  wanted. 
She  was  forced  to  pass  the  Home  Rule  Bill  because  she  had  to 
take  the  lesser  of  two  evils.  So  she  allowed  those  guns  into  I  Ister. 
But  when  we  started  gun-running  she  knew  that  what  we  said,  we 
meant,  and  therefore  our  gun-running  had  to  be  stopped.  Well, 
it  was  not.  Our  people  got  in  quite  a  number  of  guns  that  day. 
In  spite  of  a  regiment  of  soldiers  and  all  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary that  were  available,  the  guns  were  not  captured.  But 
several  men,  women,  and  children  were  shot  down  on  the  streets 
of  Dublin  bv  the  soldiers  returning  empty-handed  from  Howth. 
That  was  the  massacre  of  Bachelors'  Walk,  which  took  place  exactly 
one  week  before  the  declaration  of  war  on  the  continent  and  two 
weeks  before  England  declared  it. 

That  shows  you  whether  England  wants  to  be  impartial.  She 
tries  to  say  that  she  wants  to  treat  the  north  and  south  alike. 
I  could  give  you  a  hundred,  a  thousand  examples  if  time  permitted 
to  show  you  that  she  never  does, — instances  of  this  kind.  Then 
came  the  War. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh :  These  Volunteers  meantime  had  organized 
all  over  Ireland. 

A.  All  over  Ireland.  But  there  was  this  against  them.  Mr. 
Redmond  set  his  face  against  any  volunteers  whatever.  He  wanted 
to  keep  to  the  Constitutional  movement.  At  the  time  the  Volun- 
teers were  started,  it  was  said  that  they  only  wanted  to  take  meas- 
ures against  Sir  Edward  Carson's  rebellion.  He  felt  that  it  was 
dangerous  to  let  the  young  men  take  things  into  their  own  hands. 

Q.     And  this  organization  was  called  the  Irish  Volunteers? 

A.     The  Irish  Volunteers. 

Q.  And  they  included  the  people  of  all  classes?  Did  they  in- 
clude women? 

A.  0  no,  only  the  men  were  armed.  But  the  women  formed 
the  Cumann  ria  niBan,  a  society  something  like  your  Red  Cross, 
a  patriotic  society  to  help  carry  on  the  work. 

Q.  Up  to  this  time,  Miss  MacSwiney,  was  there  a  Sinn  Fein 
movement,  or  was  this  simply  a  movement  among  the  people, — a 
movement  among  the  Irish  Volunteers  to  arm  and  protect  them- 
selves against  attacks  from  the  north? 

A.  Well,  this  was  a  movement  among  the  young  men  to  arm 
to  defend  themselves  for  Irish  rights. 


Q.  Exactly.  But  up  to  this  time  there  was  no  movement  for 

A.  No,  of  course,  that  was  the  idea  back  of  every  movement 
in  Ireland.  But  it  was  not  precisely  stated  until  the  first  Vol- 
unteer convention,  which  was  held  in  1914.  They  definitely  stated 
their  policy  as  a  Republic.  The  policy  of  the  Irish  Volunteers 
was  the  policy  of  the  Irish  Republic,  a  continuation  of  the  fight  for 
freedom  that  had  been  always  going  on.  They  armed  themselves 
in  defense  of  the  rights  and  liberties  of  the  Irish  nation.  The 
women  joined  Cumann  na  m'Ban. 


Q.  You  answer  my  question.  Now,  going  back  to  Redmond's 
position  before  the  outbreak  of  the  war? 

A.  Before  the  war  Redmond  disapproved  of  the  Irish  Volun- 
teers. He  sent  messages  and  letters  to  all  the  A.  0.  H.1  branches 
all  over  the  country  forbidding  them  to  join  the  Irish  Volunteers. 
But  that  is  where  I  would  like  to  point  out  to  you,  as  I  said 
awhile  ago,  that  the  policy  of  Ireland  was  always  Republican,  and 
when  they  found  that  a  leader  set  himself  against  Irish  inde- 
pendence, then  the  leader  fell  and  not  the  movement.  Mr.  Red- 
mond sent  orders  that  no  member  of  his  organization  was  to  join 
the  Irish  Volunteers.  But  they  joined  in  hundreds  and  thousands 
all  over  the  country.  So  that  by  June,  1914,  they  were  coming  in 
in  very  large  numbers,  and  Mr.  Redmond  began  to  see  that  he 
could  not  possibly  forbid  the  movement.  And,  therefore,  the  next 
step  was  to  control  it.  A  great  number  of  people,  though  they 
did  not  refrain  from  joining  the  Irish  Volunteers  at  the  bidding  of 
Mr.  Redmond,  believed  in  his  sincerity  and  in  his  desire  for  ulti- 
mate separation  from  England.  And  when  he  wanted  to  come  and 
control  the  movement,  they  didn't  see  any  reason  why  he  should 
not,  when  he  was  going  to  improve  it,  you  see.  So  he  demanded 
that  he  have  a  voice  in  the  councils  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  and  he 
demanded  a  number — twenty-five,  twenty-five  members  nominated 
by  him  to  sit  on  the  council.  A  great  many  were  against  giving 
him  that, — a  great  many,  the  majority,  in  their  hearts.  But  as  a 
matter  of  policy  they  felt  this:  if  we  refuse  to  allow  Mr.  Redmond's 
nominees  on  the  council  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  we  will  imme- 
diately have  a  split,  which  of  all  things  should  be  avoided  at  the 

1  Ancient  Order  of  Hibernians. 


present  moment.  And  so  the  majority  of  the  council  gave  in  and 
allowed  Mr.  Redmond  to  nominate  members  for  the  Irish  Volun- 
teers' council.  There  were  nine  who  opposed  it.  Of  those  nine 
there  were  many  who  lost  their  lives  in  Easter  Week.  1916.  What 
would  have  happened  if  they  had  gone  on?  The  whole  policy  of 
Mr.  Redmond  was  to  weaken  the  Volunteers.  He  got  a  number  of 
guns,  but  they  were  useless.  He  did  not  want  war.  He  didn't 
want  any  physical  force  in  Ireland.  We  knew  that  he  didn't  want 
it,  and  that  his  action  was  weakening  our  movement.  But  at  that 
time  it  would  have  been  worse  to  start  out  against  him  and  say, 
You  will  not  get  a  single  nominee  on  our  council. 


When  the  war  came  Mr.  Redmond  started  as  recruiter-in-chief 
for  England. 

Q.     Senator   Walsh:    In   Ireland? 

A.  In  Ireland.  You  remember  Sir  Edward  Grey,  as  he  was  at 
that  time,  in  speaking  of  the  black  outlook  in  Europe  on  the  eve 
of  the  war,  spoke  of  Ireland  as  the  one  bright  spot,  because  he 
knew  that  Mr.  Redmond  sided  with  England  in  the  war,  and  he 
thought  that  Ireland  would  follow  Mr.  Redmond.  But  he  made 
a  mistake.  Ireland  was  furiously  and  indignantly  insulted  at 
being  called  the  one  bright  spot.  But  the  people  did  not  know  what 
was  going  on.  The  next  thing  was  that  stories  of  German  atrocities 
in  Belgium  began  pouring  in, — how  they  were  cutting  off  the  hands 
of  all  the  little  Belgian  children.  How  these  stories  were  believed 
is  a  mystery  to  me.  But  they  were  believed  largely  in  Ireland. 
Many  people  became  violently  anti-German,  and  because  anti- 
German,  pro-British.  That  is,  the  unthinking  people.  Those  of  us 
who  knew  something  of  history  knew  that  perhaps  ninety-five  per 
cent  of  the  stories  were  lies.  War  always  brings  atrocities.  There 
is  no  doubt  that  Germany  was  guilty  of  atrocities  in  the  recent 
war.  There  is  equally  no  doubt  that  England  committed  worse 
atrocities.  But  there  is  also  no  doubt  that  the  stories  told  in  Ire- 
land to  touch  the  kind  hearts  of  our  people  were  lies.  I  could 
give  you  many  instances  where  they  were  lies.  The  only  people 
who  were  not  deceived  by  them  were  the  poeple  who  knew  that  the 
stories  that  England  was  telling  about  German  atrocities  were 
absolutely  word  for  word  the  stories  she  was  telling  the  world  in 
1798  about  Irish  atrocities.  One  of  our  national  journals  printed 
one  week,  in  the  early  days  of  the  war,  in  one  column  the  stories 


England  was  telling  Ireland  about  German  atrocities,  and,  in  a 
parallel  column,  the  stories  England  was  telling  the  world  about 
Irish  atrocities  in  1798.  And  we  who  knew  what  lies  the  stories 
of  1798  were,  concluded  logically  that  the  other  stories  were  lies, 
too.  But  you  must  remember  that  the  Irish  people  did  not  know 
their  own  history;  that  when  England  allowed  Irish  history  to  be 
taught  in  the  schools,  she  only  allowed  it  to  be  taught  in  books 
controlled  by  her.  Therefore,  the  people  of  Ireland  would  believe 
these  stories.  Some  of  them  may  have  been  true,  but  the  majority 
of  them  were  prevarications,  the  sort  of  English  propaganda  that 
we  had  been  fighting  for  centuries. 

Mr.  Redmond  came  over  and  stood  with  Mr.  Asquith,  or  who- 
ever was  Premier  at  the  time,  and  advised  the  Irish  people  to  go 
to  war  for  small  nations.  You  can  hardly  blame  us  for  being 
skeptical.  As  a  preliminary  measure,  they  passed  the  Home  Rule 
Act,  and  then  put  it  on  the  shelf  until  after  the  war,  and  said  it 
was  only  to  be  passed  with  an  amendment  clause  that  would  sat- 
isfy Ulster.  The  next  point  was  an  absolute  division  with  Mr. 
Redmond's  Volunteers,  the  National  Volunteers,  as  they  were  called, 
and  the  Irish  Volunteers.  Now,  because  a  great  many  of  those 
who  had  been  strongly  connected  with  the  Sinn  Fein  movement, 
which,  as  I  told  you,  was  a  constitutional  movement  when  it 
started, — a  great  many  of  those  who  had  been  constitutional  Sinn 
Feiners  had  immediately  joined  the  ranks  of  the  Irish  Volunteers, 
the  tag  got  on,  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers  versus  National  Volunteers. 
Redmond  called  his  the  National  Volunteers.  We  in  Ireland  called 
them  Redmondites.  But  the  general  public,  to  distinguish  be- 
tween them,  called  them  Nationalist  Volunteers  and  Sinn  Fein 
Volunteers.  The  Nationalist  followers  firmly  believed  with  Mr. 
Redmond  that  this  was  the  way  to  win  liberty  for  the  country. 
The  Irish  Volunteers  did  not.  Very  soon  the  National  Volunteers 
disappeared.  They  got  no  recruits.  The  recruits  went  into  the 
Irish  Volunteers. 


So  matters  stood  until  1916.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  harassing 
work  going  on  in  the  meantime.  The  papers  were  suppressed  one 
after  another.  We  had  a  paper  called  Irish  Freedom,  which  ran 
for  some  months,  and  then  it  was  suppressed.  Generally  each  sup- 
pressed paper  would  appear  the  next  week  under  another  name. 
We  did  not  know  always  what  the  name  of  it  would  be,  but  we  knew 
its  sentiments.  There  were  many  Republican  papers  suppressed. 
My  brother  started  a  paper  called  Fiorina  Fail.     It  means  The  Army 


of  Destiny.  From  the  word  Fianna  the  word  Fenian  has  come, 
because  they  were  the  army  of  the  great  Irish  hero,  Finn  MacCoole. 
All  that  time  the  suppression  of  papers  went  on,  people  were  pre- 
vented from  holding  meetings,  and  various  other  things. 

My  brother  was  one  of  the  very  first  Volunteers  in  Cork.  In 
regard  to  the  founding  of  the  Volunteers  in  Cork,  there  is  a  very 
interesting  story.  The  organization  was  founded  in  November, 
1913,  in  Dublin.  Eoin  MacNeil  and  other  people  came  down 
to  speak  at  the  inaugural  meeting  in  Cork.  I  have  told  you  that 
we  Republicans  were  very  much  pleased  when  we  saw  what  Sir 
Edward  Carson  was  doing,  because  it  gave  us  our  chance.  But 
we  rather  forgot  that  the  mind  of  the  country  was  not  educated 
up  to  that  point  of  view,  and  to  them  Sir  Edward  Carson  was 
anathema  because  he  was  opposing  Home  Rule.  Eoin  MacNeil 
forgot  that,  and  in  the  course  of  his  speech  he  said  Sir  Edward 
Carson  deserved  three  cheers  from  us  for  forming  his  Ulster  Vol- 
unteers. That  night  there  was  a  little  body  of  men  at  the  hall 
that  were  sent  there  for  the  purpose  of  making  a  row.  That 
little  remark  of  Eoin  MacNeil  gave  them  a  chance,  and  they  broke 
up  the  meeting.  The  Redmondite  papers  the  next  day  spoke  of 
the  awful  iniquity  of  calling  for  cheers  for  Sir  Edward  Carson, 
who  was  marching  on  Cork  to  put  us  to  death.  It  was  a  foolish 
remark  to  make,  because  psychologically  the  people  were  not  up 
to  it  at  that  time.  They  simply  looked  upon  Sir  Edward  Carson 
as  the  opponent  of  independence  and  Home  Rule.  That  retarded 
the  work  of  the  Volunteers  in  Cork  for  some  time,  and  they  did 
not  advance  as  quickly  as  they  did  in  Dublin. 


In  the  spring  of  1914  we  started  this  women's  side  movement, 
Cumann  na  m'Ban,  as  I  have  said,  like  Red  Cross  work,  and  we 
trained  the  minds  of  the  people  to  know  what  the  Republican 
movement  meant.  But  our  chief  work  was  to  support  the  Irish 
Volunteers  by  every  means  possible  in  their  fight  for  the  inde- 
pendence of  Ireland.  We  wanted  to  get  a  big  inaugural  meeting, 
and  we  succeeded  in  getting  a  big  inaugural  meeting,  which  really 
gave  the  Volunteers  a  big  chance  to  have  a  meeting  also.  Our 
meeting  was  a  real  help  to  them.  You  know  how  meetings  are 
sometimes  delayed.  We  began  in  March,  and  it  was  April  when 
we  got  going.  We  invited  Sir  Roger  Casement  to  come,  but  he 
could  not.  One  of  my  dearest  possessions  today  is  an  autographed 
letter  from  him  explaining  that  he  could  not  come  down  to  the 
meeting.     That   was   in   May;    and  in   the  beginning   of  June   Mr. 


Redmond's  call  for  control  of  the  volunteers  came.     Then  came  the 

In  November,  1914,  we  had  a  meeting  at  Dublin  when  the 
women  had  to  decide  whether  they  would  remain  neutral  or  side 
with  the  Irish  Volunteers,  or  with  Mr.  Redmond's  Volunteers,  or 
split.  Thank  God  we  did  not  split,  but  remained  on  the  side  of  the 
Irish  Volunteers.  Cumann  na  m'Ban  has  never  deviated  from  that 
day,  and  they  are  still  fighting  on  that  position. 


In  1916  we  began  our  first  open  battle.  I  suppose  you  can 
regard  the  declaration  of  war  on  England  as  the  day  we  reorganized 
the  Irish  Volunteers  and  said  they  are  out  to  fight  for  the  rights 
and  liberties  of  the  Irish  people.  But  the  first  battle  in  this  phase 
of  the  war  that  has  been  going  on  for  so  long  was  in  Easter  Week, 
1916.  That  battle  failed.  We  lost  it.  But  Padraic  Pearse  said, 
on  the  night  before  we  were  forced  to  evacuate  the  general  post- 
office,  "We  have  lost  the  first  battle,  but  we  have  saved  the  soul 
of  Ireland,  and  now  the  people  can  go  ahead."  Easter  Week  saved 
the  soul  of  Ireland.  From  that  day  on  there  was  no  more  possi- 
bility of  the  Irish  people  mistaking  where  their  duty  lay.  From 
that  day  on  there  was  no  such  thing  as  recruiting  for  any  army 
except  the  Irish  Volunteers.  In  consequence  of  the  insurrection, 
the  Irish  people  were  arrested.  About  two  thousand  of  them  filled 
English  jails. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  About  how  many  Irish  soldiers  took  part 
in  the  Easter  uprising? 

A.  Not  more  than  one  thousand.  The  English  brought  in  regi- 
ments and  armored  cars  and  guns  and  shelled  our  capital. 

Q.     Were  they  all  Irish  Volunteers? 

A.  No,  there  was  also  the  Citizens'  Army,  the  Irish  Citizens' 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  was  not  a  Sinn  Fein  army?  It 
was  a  national  army? 

A.  It  was  a  national  army.  The  reason  the  name  Sinn  Fein 
stuck  to  it  was  that  all  these  people  got  mixed  up  in  the  Irish  In- 
dustrial Development  Association  and  the  Gaelic  League,  and  all 
got  to  be  called  Sinn  Feiners  because  some  of  them  were  Sinn 
Feiners,  and  because  they  all  joined  the  Irish  Volunteers'  move- 
ment.    Sinn  Fein  was  a  tag  put  on  by  the  people.     Sinn  Fein  was 


originally  a  constitutional  policy.  But  now  the  name  lias  been 
adopted  everywhere,  and  it  is  a  Republican  policy. 

After  that  there  were  wholesale  arrests. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  The  story  of  what  has  happened  in  the 
Easter  Rebellion  ought  to  be  a  continuous  story,  ought  it  not? 

A.     Would  you  like  me  to  tell  you? 

Chairman  Howe:  We  would  like  to  have  you  tell  us  some  time, 
either  now  or  after  lunch. 

The  Witness:  About  the  Easter  Week  insurrection,  I  will  try  to 
put  it  as  shortly  as  I  can. 

Chairman  Howe:     I  did  not  mean  to  suggest  that. 

The  Witness:  I  know,  but  it  would  take  so  long  if  1  went  into 
detail.  The  essential  point  for  you  to  understand  is  that  this  insur- 
rection was  confined  mainly  to  Dublin.  Galway  rose  also,  but  most 
of  the  fighting  was  in  Dublin.  You  have  often  heard  that  Ireland 
was  divided  over  this  insurrection.  I  should  like  to  explain  about 


We  expected  help  in  this  insurrection.  We  expected  arms.  We 
had  very  few  arms  at  that  time.  We  were  expecting  Roger  Case- 
ment to  come  from  Germany  with  arms.  I  have  no  hesitation  about 
acknowledging  that,  and  I  give  no  one  in  the  world  any  apology  foi 
it.  We  were  at  war  with  England,  and  we  were  at  liberty  to  get 
guns  where  we  could  to  carry  on  that  war.  England  said  she  was 
fighting  for  the  rights  of  small  nations.  We  had  absolutely  as  much 
right  to  our  liberty  as  Belgium  had,  about  whose  rights  England 
was  so  solicitous.  If  we  wanted  to  take  Germany  as  an  ally  we  had 
a  right  to  take  her  as  an  ally.  England  had  a  great  deal  of  talk 
about  our  being  pro-German.  She  did  turn  France  against  us.  Only 
my  brother's  death  has  softened  France.  She  said  we  weakened  her 
ally  at  a  critical  moment.  But  what  right  had  France  to  expect  that 
we  should  not  weaken  the  cause  of  her  ally  when  her  allv  was  op- 
pressing us. 

Q.     We  were  told  you  took  German  gold. 

A.  We  did  not  take  German  gold.  We  took  the  pennies  and  six- 
pences of  our  people.  But  did  not  we  have  a  right  to  take  it  if  we 
had  wanted  it?  Did  not  France  take  English  gold,  and  did  not 
England  take  American  gold  when  she  could  get  it.  Surely  no  one 
has  a  right  to  speak  if  we  had  taken  it.  But  we  did  not.  Surely  not 
England,   who   was   borrowing   from    America.      Any   nation    has   a 


right  to  make  alliances  when  she  is  fighting  against  an  enemy.  It 
is  said  that  we  wanted  to  invite  the  Germans  into  Ireland.  We  did 
not.  The  only  man  who  ever  tried  to  invite  Germans  into  Ireland 
was  Sir  Edward  Carson.  If  Germany  tried  to  take  Ireland  we 
would  fight  her  just  as  long  and  just  as  effectively  as  we  are  fighting 
England.  Of  course  it  was  a  lie  that  we  took  German  money,  but 
if  we  had  taken  it,  what  difference  would  it  make?  England  says 
she  wants  people  to  have  fair  play,  but  she  does  not  give  us  fair 
play.  If  it  is  right  for  France  to  borrow  money  from  England,  it 
would  be  just  as  right  for  us  to  borrow  money  from  Germany,  if 
we  had  got  it,  but  we  didn't.  Germany  would  have  been  glad  for 
us  to  create  a  revolution  in  her  favor,  of  course.  But  we  were  not 
doing  it  to  please  Germany.  More  than  one  Irishman  has  said: 
"England's  difficulty  is  Ireland's  opportunity."  England's  difficulty 
has  always  been  Ireland's  opportunity,  and  we  are  absolutely  right 
in  taking  advantage  of  that  opportunity.  The  sooner  you  can  get 
that  in  a  common  sense  way,  the  better.  It  was  no  crime  for  us  to 
take  help  where  we  could  get  it,  to  make  an  alliance  with  anybody 
we  wanted  to. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  -it  not  raised  as  a  fact  that  France  has 
sometimes  been  at  war  with  England,  and  has  been  glad  to  help 
along  revolutions  in  England's  colonies? 

A.  I  was  going  to  say  that.  In  1778  France  happened  to  be  at 
war  with  England,  and  she  wanted  to  hurt  England  in  any  way  she 
could,  and  she  acknowledged  you  as  a  republic  to  hurt  England, 
and  it  did.  You  also  wanted,  in  1774  and  1775  to  appeal  to  the 
sympathies  of  the  Irish  people,  and  you  got  it.  And  I  do  not  think 
America  needs  to  be  told  of  the  many  Irishmen  she  has  had  then 
and  since  to  fight  for  the  freedom  of  her  country. 

And  therefore  I  protest  against  the  statement  that  I  or  my  fellow 
citizens  would  choose  to  ally  ourselves  with  the  Central  Empires. 
We  did  not  because  they  would  be  no  good  to  us.  But  if  we  had, 
it  would  have  been  no  worse  than  England  taking  your  help,  and 
she  was  very  glad  to  get  it,  because  if  she  had  not  got  it,  she  would 
not  be  victorious  today. 


I  ask  you  American  people,  do  you  think  you  have  helped  de- 
mocracy by  entering  the  war?  President  Wilson  said:  "The  reasons 
for  this  war  have  been  so  clearly  avowed  that  no  man  can  make  a 
mistake  by  entering  it."  He  said — I  do  not  know  whether  I  am 
stating  it  exactly:   "America  has  gone  to  war  for  the  rights  and 


liberties  of  all  peoples  everywhere  under  the  sun,  for  the  right  of 
self-determination  for  small  nations,  and  for  their  release  from  an 
autocratic  power."  Are  we  not  a  people,  and  are  we  not  under  the 
sun  somewhere?  If  you  say  "all  people,"  you  must  count  us.  If 
you  say,  "the  release  of  small  nations  from  autocratic  power,"  you 
must  not  leave  out  Ireland.  As  America  went  out  for  the  rights  and 
liberties  of  all  peoples  everywhere,  for  liberty  and  self-determina- 
tion and  for  the  "undictated  development  of  all  peoples"  (I  think 
that  was  another  phrase  of  President  Wilson ) ,  I  ask  you,  have  we 
not  rights  and  liberties  and  a  right  to  the  undictated  development 
of  our  own  country?  We  have  our  republic,  but  we  have  got  it  in 
spite  of  England's  oppression. 

You  people  in  America  have  not  carried  out  the  policies  for  which 
you  went  into  the  war.  You  sheathed  the  sword  when  England  got 
what  she  wanted.  I  do  not  want  to  hurt  you.  You  have  been  very 
good  to  us,  and  you  have  given  us  a  chance  by  this  Commission  to 
tell  the  truth  about  Ireland.  But  you  have  not  made  the  world  safe 
for  democracy.  You  have  only  made  the  world  safe  for  a  time  for 
the  British  Empire.  But  I  know  this.  When  England  begins  to 
collar  all  the  coal  fields  and  all  the  oil  fields,  and  when  she  begins 
to  hamper  your  navy  and  your  shipping  by  collaring  the  coal  and 
oil  fields  of  the  world,  she  will  not  find  it  as  easy  to  overwhelm 
America  with  force  of  numbers  as  she  has  found  it  to  overrun  Ire- 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  now  be  adjourned, — it  is 
quarter  to  one — will  now  be  adjourned  until  two  o'clock. 

2:21  P.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  will  proceed  with  the  hearing  (rapping  for 
order).     Is  Miss  MacSwiney  here? 

(Miss  Mary  MacSwiney  retakes  witness  stand.) 


Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  When  we  let  out  for  the  noon  recess,  Miss 
MacSwiney,  you  had  just  begun  to  tell  of  the  happenings  of  Easter 
Week,  1916. 

The  Witness:  It  was  a  point  made  very  much  of  by  England  that 
the  Easter  Week  insurrection  was  not  an  insurrection  of  the  Irish 
nation.  That  it  was  only  a  few  extremists.  And  they  pointed  to  the 
fact  that  the  fighting  took  place  in  Dublin  only.    I  had  begun  to  tell 


you  that  we  had  expected  help  in  the  shape  of  arms.  We  had  hoped 
to  get  some  arms  to  enable  us  to  carry  on  the  fight,  because  the  arms 
and  ammunition  of  the  country  did  not  amount  to  much.  And  those 
arms  failed  us.  They  did  not  come.  An  insurrection  had  been  ar- 
ranged for  Easter  Monday,  1916.  The  leader*  had  counted  on  get- 
ting the  arms  the  last  of  the  week,  on  a  Good  Friday.  The  ship 
bringing  the  arms  was  sunk  by  the  British.  They  were  perfectly 
justified  from  their  point  of  view  in  sinking  that  ship,  just  as  we 
were  justified  in  bringing  it  in  if  we  could.  However,  it  was  sunk. 
The  result  of  that  was  that  some  of  the  leaders,  notably  Mr.  Mac- 
Neil,  thought  that  the  time  was  not  opportune  to  begin.  And  though 
the  orders  had  gone  out  for  the  whole  country  for  the  insurrection 
on  Easter  Monday,  the  orders  were  cancelled  at  the  last  moment  by 
Mr.  MacNeil.  Many  of  the  leaders  did  not  agree  with  the  canceling 
of  those  orders,  and  I  think  that  some  of  them  thought  that  Mr.  Mac- 
Neil  had  exceeded  his  powers  and  his  rights  in  sending  these  can- 
cellation orders.  One  section,  the  Irish  Citizens'  Army,  was  not 
under  the  control  of  the  Volunteers.  That  was  a  labor  organization 
chiefly.  You  have  heard  of  Jim  Larkin  here,  and  he  and  James  Con- 
nolly were  concerned  with  the  organization  of  that  Citizens'  Army. 
They  had  threatened  to  go  out  in  any  case.  The  secret  history  of 
those  few  days  has  not  been  fully  published,  and  the  documentary 
evidence  in  connection  with  it  was  largely  burned  during  Easter 
Week.  And  some  of  us,  even  though  we  were  on  the  inside  of  Re- 
publican affairs,  are  not  exactly  certain  of  all  the  orders  and  counter- 
orders  of  that  week.  It  ended  by  only  a  portion  of  the  Volunteers 
rising  in  Dublin.  They  began  on  Monday  morning,  according  to  the 
plan.  Mr.  MacNeil  had  sent  the  order  all  over  Ireland  on  Sunday 
that  the  Volunteers  were  not  to  rise.  An  order  followed  on  Monday 
signed  by  Padraic  Pearse  and  John  MacDermott  that  they  were  to 
rise,  that  the  orders  were  to  be  kept  to.  By  the  time  these  orders 
reached  the  outlying  districts  it  was  too  late.  Cork  was  not  in  the 
Easter  rising.  The  fact  that  it  was  not  was  a  lasting  source  of  grief 
to  my  brother.  Many  of  the  people  thought  they  should  have  gone 
out,  even  though  they  were  certain  to  fail.  There  were  some  people, 
I  am  not  sure  how  many,  who  accused  them  of  cowardice  or  funk  at 
the  last  moment.  That  charge  was  not  justified,  and  I  do  not  think 
it  will  be  ever  made  again.  But  the  situation  in  Cork  made  it  im- 
possible for  them  to  rise.  Cork  is  built  in  a  valley.  The  order  to 
rise  did  not  reach  the  commandants  until  Monday  evening.  By  the 
time  they  could  have  got  their  men  together  every  hill  in  Cork  was 
mounted  by  a  huge  field  gun,  the  largest  piece  of  artillery  they  could 
get.    Cork  is  built  in  a  valley.    The  British  military  barracks  are  on 


the  highest  hill  in  the  district.  By  Tuesday  night  they  had  a  huge 
gun  planted  on  every  hill  around  the  city.  They  could  have  shelled 
the  city  in  an  hour  until  there  was  nothing  left  of  it.  The  Volun- 
teer commanders  in  Cork  knew  that.  They  did  not  want  to  order 
the  men  out  to  what  was  absolutely  certain  slaughter.  They  realized 
that  Dublin  was  only  a  first  battle  in  the  war,  and  for  the  time  they 
had  to  remain  inactive.  I  can  speak  of  personal  knowledge  of  the 
very,  very  great  reluctance  with  which  they  came  to  that  decision. 
I  can  tell  you  what  very  few  people  in  Ireland  knew  at  that  time  or 
even  now,  that  as  late  as  Thursday  evening  at  seven  o'clock  they  had 
made  plans  to  get  out  of  the  city  into  the  country  districts  where  they 
could  have  fought.  Cork  is  not  like  Dublin,  which  was  suitable  for 
street  fighting.  Cork  could  not  have  street  fighting.  It  would  have 
been  shelled  from  the  hills  within  an  hour.  By  Thursday  evening 
they  were  trying  to  call  the  Volunteers  out  of  the  city,  and  as  late 
as  Thursday  evening  at  seven  o'clock  I  had  orders  to  put  in  a  fresh 
supply  of  first  aid  material  in  case  they  were  able  to  manage  it. 
They  were  not  able  to  manage  it,  but  I  can  testify  to  the  great  re- 
luctance with  which  they  finally  gave  it  up. 


The  military  in  Cork  were  so  certain  that  they  would  rise  that 
the  military  commander  appealed  to  the  mayor  and  the  bishop  to 
try  to  get  the  Volunteers  to  lay  down  their  arms.  If  the  Volunteers 
showed  no  signs  of  giving  the  military  trouble,  the  military  under- 
took not  to  give  them  any  trouble.  Our  men  would  not  have  any 
negotiations  with  the  British  except  on  equal  terms.  But  they  came, 
by  the  advice  of  the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor,  to  an  understanding, 
as  they  were  assured  that  a  rising  in  Cork  was  impossible.  The 
understanding  was  that  they  would  hand  over  to  the  bishop  and  the 
lord  mayor  of  the  city  the  guns,  the  arms  and  ammunition  that  they 
had;  that  these  arms  and  ammunitions  were  to  remain  under  the 
charge  of  the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor  as  joint  guarantors  that  the 
Irish  Volunteers  would  not  rise  in  insurrection,  on  the  one  hand; 
and  that  the  military  authorities  would  not  capture  the  guns  and 
would  not  arrest  the  leaders,  on  the  other.  This  was  a  definite 
understanding,  a  promise  made  by  Colonel  East,  who  was  command- 
ing the  British  forces  in  Cork.  And  that  promise  was  given  to  the 
lord  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor  of  the  City  of  Cork.  After  a  lengthy 
discussion  the  men  agreed  to  accept  that,  and  on  Monday  night,  that 
would  be  the  first  of  May,  they  handed  their  guns  over  to  the  care 


of  the  lord  mayor.  They  were  locked  up  in  his  offices,  and  the 
guarantee  was  given,  not  a  written  guarantee  in  the  hands  of  the 
Volunteers,  but  the  word  of  the  military  commander  was  given  to 
the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor,  as  the  word  of  our  men  was  given 
to  them,  that  they  would  take  no  further  action.  That  was  on  Mon- 
day night,  and  the  arms  were  handed  to  the  lord  mayor  before  mid- 
night. At  eight  o'clock  on  Tuesday  morning, — at  quarter  to  one, 
let  me  say  first,  just  three-quarters  of  an  hour  after  midnight,  a 
military  party  headed  by  a  captain  went  to  the  lord  mayor  and  de- 
manded the  arms  that  had  been  entrusted  to  him.  He  said  they  had 
been  given  to  him  as  a  trustee,  and  the  military  had  promised  not 
to  ask  for  them.  He  was  told  that  he  would  be  in  jail  in  a  very 
short  time  if  he  did  not  give  them  up.  Not  being  an  Irish  Republi- 
can at  the  time,  he  gave  them  up.  At  seven  o'clock  in  the  morning 
the  arrests  began.  Practically  every  Irish  Volunteer  in  the  city  was 
arrested,  and  two  women  were  arrested.  My  brother  had  left  for  the 
country  early  on  Tuesday  before  the  arrests  began,  or  before  he 
knew  of  it,  and  he  was  out  of  the  city  when  a  party  of  six  policemen 
with  loaded  rifles  came  to  our  house.  I  was  in  school  at  the  time, — 
at  least,  I  was  not  in  school  at  the  time,  I  was  in  jail,  but  my  sister 
thought  I  was  in  school.  But  they  stood  around  her,  and  the  whole 
six  pointed  their  loaded  rifles  at  her  and  demanded  to  know  where 
her  brother  was.  She  said  she  would  not  tell  them.  They  threatened 
and  coaxed  her,  but  she  gave  them  no  answer.  They  wanted  to  know 
if  he  was  upstairs,  and  she  said,  "Go  and  see."  She  happened  to  be 
standing  with  her  arms  behind  her  back,  and  they  ordered  her  to 
put  up  her  hands.  She  put  them  up,  for  she  had  nothing  in  them. 
They  then  wanted  to  know  again  if  he  was  upstairs,  and  she  would 
not  tell  them.  And  so  they  went  upstairs,  but  they  were  all  very 
polite,  very  polite  to  each  other,  each  one  letting  the  other  go  first. 
They  thought  that  he  might  be  at  the  top  of  the  landing  with  a  gun. 
The  sergeant  finally  went  first.  They  found  nothing.  They  came 
down  with  very  relieved  faces  and  went  away.  We  had  a  little  maid 
at  the  time.  They  found  her  in  the  kitchen  and  threw  her  out  by 
force,  threw  her  out  in  the  next  room  against  the  wall  and  demanded 
to  know  where  the  master  was.  She  did  not  know.  She  never  knew, 
of  course.     And  they  finally  went  away. 


In  the  meantime  they  went  to  the  school  and  arrested  me.  All 
over  the  city  that  day  the  tension  was  frightful.  Great  squads 
of  soldiers  and  police  going  all  over  the  city,  as  many  as  a  hun- 


dred  and  fifty  soldiers  to  arrest  one  man.  Naturally  the  word 
was  taken  to  the  bishop.  Men  and  women  were  going  to  the 
house  of  the  bishop  and  demanding  to  know  what  it  all  meant. 
He  got  in  touch  with  the  military  authorities.  I  think  he  spoke 
very  plainly  to  them.  And  finally,  although  they  did  not  give  back 
the  arms.  Colonel  East  sent  an  order  to  release  all  the  people 
who  had  been  arrested  in  the  city  about  seven-thirty  Tuesday  even- 
ing. So  we  all  got  out.  We  did  not  have  very  much  jail.  It  was 
about  twenty  to  eight  when  I  was  driving  down  from  the  jail, 
and  about  ten  minutes  afterwards  an  urgent  order  came  from 
General  Maxwell  that  no  one  was  to  be  released  on  any  condi- 
tion whatever.  But  we  were  gone.  The  birds  had  flown.  They 
did  not  take  the  women  back,  but  they  began  rearresting  the  men 
in  twos  and  threes  until  they  had  about  two  thousand  of  them  ar- 
rested and  put  in  jail  in  England.  My  brother  was  arrested  in  the 
country  and  taken.  We  did  not  know  for  a  long  time  where  he 


To  show  you  how  they  can  tell  lies:  we  were  very  uneasy  be- 
cause for  over  a  week  we  did  not  have  a  single  word  from  my 
brother.  We  knew  he  had  been  arrested.  Someone  had  seen  him 
brought  into  Cork  at  half -past  four  in  the  morning,  and  they  were 
taking  him  up  to  Cork  jail.  A  few  days  afterward  we  learned 
that  someone  had  seen  him  about  five  o'clock  in  the  morning  re- 
moved from  Cork  jail.  We  applied  to  the  governor,  but  got  no 
information  where  he  was.  After  a  question  asked  in  the  House 
of  Commons  as  to  why  these  men  were  not  allowed  to  see  their 
relatives,  Mr.  Asquith,  the  Prime  Minister  at  the  time,  replied 
that  all  the  Cork  prisoners  were  allowed  to  see  their  friends  and 
had  fresh  air  and  food  and  visitors  and  all  other  nice  things.  It 
was  utterly  false.  That  appeared  on  Thursday  morning,  about  the 
thirteenth  of  May,  I  think.  He  had  been  missing  since  the  third. 
Some  of  us  whose  relatives  had  been  taken  away  and  did  not 
know  their  whereabouts  went  to  the  general  postoffice  and  sent  a 
series  of  telegrams  to  Mr.  Asquith,  and  sent  him  each  one  his  own 
particular  story,  and  told  him  that  our  relatives  had  been  taken 
away  and  we  had  been  denied  all  information  as  to  where  they 
were.  We  also  sent  copies  of  these  telegrams  to  William  O'Brien, 
because  it  was  he  who  asked  for  information  from  Mr.  Asquith, 
and  to  Lawrence  Ginnell,  because  he  was  the  only  one  in  the  House 
of  Commons  on   whom  we  could  depend  to  bring   out  the  truth. 


We  sent  them  in  great  hurry,  because  there  was  to  be  a  debate 
in  the  House  of  Commons  that  day  on  the  Irish  question.  Mr. 
Ginnell  later  told  me  that  those  telegrams  created  a  great  sensa- 
tion when  read  in  the  House.  That  was  on  Thursday.  On  Satur- 
day morning  we  all  got  letters  from  our  friends.  That  is  the 
way.  And  then  when  you  catch  them  at  it,  they  correct  it  and 
say,  It  is  a  lie;  you  are  not  telling  the  truth. 


That  was  my  brother's  second  term  of  imprisonment.  They 
were  all  in  prison  most  of  the  time  until  Christmas.  There  was  a 
general  amnesty  at  Christmas.  But  the  men  who  were  concerned 
actually  in  the  rising,  the  men  who  were  in  Dublin,  were  sent  most 
of  them  to  penal  servitude,  those  who  were  not  shot.  And  they  were 
not  released  from  prison  by  the  Christmas  amnesty. 


Mr.  Walsh  asked  me  this  morning  to  tell  you  something  about 
education  in  Ireland.  There  is  a  little  addition  I  would  like  to 
make  here.  I  was  teaching  in  a  large  secondary  school,  in  one 
of  the  intermediate  schools  of  which  I  spoke,  in  the  city  at  that 
time.  As  an  example  of  the  type  of  mind  engendered  by  the 
British  education  in  our  country,  I  might  tell  you  that  the  nuns 
are  personally  very  fond  of  me.  I  know  that.  They  highly  dis- 
approved of  my  political  opinions,  and  they  were  very  nervous 
at  having  them  in  that  exceedingly  respectable  school.  On  the 
January  preceding  the  Easter  rising,  my  brother  had  been  arrested 
for  making  a  speech.  And  a  district  inspector  of  police  who  had 
a  child  in  the  school  went  up  to  the  Reverend  Mother  and  told  her 
I  was  not  a  proper  person  to  be  teaching  in  a  school  like  that,  and 
I  ought  to  be  dismissed.  Now,  I  do  not  want  to  say  an  unneces- 
sarily harsh  word  about  that  school.  It  was  my  alma  mater,  and 
I  am  very  attached  to  it.  And  the  only  crime  I  convict  the  nuns 
of  was  cowardice.  It  is  a  pretty  bad  one  in  my  category  of  crimes. 
But  it  was  absolutely  unavoidable  in  that  condition  of  mind  en- 
gendered by  the  education  of  the  country.  It  was  so  fearfully 
disrespectable  to  be  a  Sinn  Feiner.  We  are  all  called  Sinn  Feiners. 
And  Sinn  Fein  by  that  time  had  become  Republican.  However, 
some  time  before   Easter  the  Reverend   Mother  complained  of  my 


tendencies  to  make  Sinn  Feiners  of  the  pupils.  I  said,  "I  have 
never  mentioned  the  name  Sinn  Fein  in  the  class.  I  am  not  a 
Sinn  Feiner  at  all.  I  am  a  Republican.  But  I  have  never  told 
the  children  what  I  am."  And  she  said,  "But  at  the  same  time  there 
is  something  there."  And  she  finally  brought  it  out  with  a  great 
burst  that  I  was  too  Irish.  And  I  asked  her  if  she  ever  heard  of 
an  Englishwoman  being  too  English,  or  a  Frenchwoman  being  too 
French;  and  it  was  not  a  crime  for  me  to  be  too  Irish.  Then  she 
said,  "You  must  keep  to  the  textbook  in  teaching  history."  I 
said,  "If  I  keep  to  the  textbook,  the  senior  girls  will  fail  in  the 
examination,  because  there  is  not  enough  in  it."  That  was  not 
exactly  what  she  meant,  and  I  told  her  what  she  meant.  "You 
want  me  to  teach  Irish  history  from  the  English  point  of  view.  I 
would  no  more  do  that  than  as  a  Catholic  I  would  teach  the  history 
of  the  Reformation  from  the  Protestant  point  of  view."  And 
whether  you  are  Catholic  or  Protestant  or  nothing  at  all,  you  can 
perfectly  understand  that  I  would  not  teach  the  Protestant  point 
of  view  against  my  own  than  you  would,  if  you  were  a  Protestant, 
teach  the  Catholic  point  of  view  against  your  own.  Naturally,  the 
teaching  of  all  history  must  be  colored  by  the  point  of  view  of  the 
country  in  which  it  is  taught.  I  think  before  this  war  there  was 
an  idea  that  history  should  be  wholly  colorless;  that  it  should  be 
taken  from  state  documents.  If  there  is  anything  that  this  past  war 
has  taught  the  world  it  is  that  of  all  the  lies  that  it  is  possible  to 
tell,  that  official  documents  are  the  biggest  lies.  I  have  friends  who 
were  in  the  war  who  told  me  exactly  how  these  official  documents 
were  compiled.  It  is  very  interesting  for  the  historian  and  I  don't 
think — 

Chairman  Howe:  Please  keep  to  the  recital  of  the  Irish  situation, 
Miss  MacSwiney. 

The  Witness:  I  am  sorry.  Please  pull  me  up  if  I  say  things  I 
ought  not  to  say.  I  have  said  that  about  the  school  to  show  you 
the  type  of  mind  that  was  engendered  in  our  country.  The  Reverend 
Mother  hinted  to  me  that  they  would  have  to  reduce  the  staff.  I 
think  I  was  expected  to  take  the  hint  that  I  was  to  be  the  one  dis- 
missed, so  I  said  to  her,  "Now,  Mother,  I  am  the  senior  teacher 
here.  Therefore,  I  take  it  for  granted  that  I  am  not  the  one  to  be 
dismissed."  She  could  not  take  it  for  granted  at  all.  I  said,  "Why, 
then?  Am  I  incompetent?"  And  she  had  to  say  I  was  not.  I  said, 
"Now,  look  here,  if  you  dismiss  me  in  reducing  the  staff,  it  simply 
means  that  you  are  dismissing  me  because  I  am  an  Irish  Republican. 
You  are  dismissing  me  because  of  my  political  opinions.  If  you 
say  that,  well  and  good.     Bui   I  will  not  permit  myself  to  be  dis- 


missed  on  any  other  ground."  There  were  three  teachers  in  that 
division  of  the  school.  And  all  three  teachers  got  notice  that  in 
consequence  of  changes  in  the  school  during  the  coming  summer, 
we  could  not  consider  ourselves  engaged  for  the  next  year.  We 
were  at  liberty  to  get  another  post,  and  they  were  at  liberty  to  get 
other  services.  That  was  the  quietest  way  to  get  rid  of  a  trouble- 
some person.  It  does  not  sound  very  nice,  and  I  do  not  want  to  be 
hard  on  that  particular  school,  but  I  am  doing  that  not  to  hurt 
them,  but  to  show  you  the  type  of  mind  that  was  engendered  by  the 
British  education  in  that  country.  They  were  afraid — afraid  of 
offending  the  rich  people,  who  were  mostly  West  Britons;  afraid 
of  offending  the  police  authorities;  afraid  that  anybody  connected 
with  them  might  be  connected  in  any  way  with  that  very  dangerous 
thing  called  Sinn  Fein.  When  I  was  arrested  on  a  Tuesday  morning 
and  released  on  Tuesday  night,  I  went  to  school  again  on  Wednesday 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  How  is  that  school  about  being  Republican 

A.     Oh,  everyone  in  Ireland  is  Republican  now. 

Q.     Does  that  include  that  school? 

A.  Yes,  of  course.  In  the  recent  martyrdom  of  my  brother, 
when  prayers  were  being  said  for  him  and  masses  were  being  said 
for  him,  all  the  school  children  said  prayers  for  him,  and  I  am 
glad  to  say  that  that  school  sent  me  word  through  one  of  the  nuns 
that  they  had  done  their  share.  All  the  children  are  all  right  and 
all  the  nuns  are  all  right.  I  think  there  are  several  old  ladies  there 
yet  who  are  very  much  afraid.  But  they  are  all  right  at  heart.  I 
was  deeply  grieved  at  their  treatment  of  me,  and  still  am  deeply 
grieved  because  they  did  not  dismiss  me  straight  out.  When  they 
found  out  Easter  week  had  changed  the  whole  of  the  citizens,  and 
there  was  a  revulsion  of  feeling  and  indignation  in  the  city  because 
I  was  dismissed,  they  tried  to  say  that  I  was  not  really  dismissed; 
that  it  was  a  mistake. 

I  have  introduced  this  to  show  you  the  state  of  mind  of  a  large 
number  of  the  Irish  people  in  1916.  It  was  the  shooting  of  the 
leaders  of  the  1916  movement  and  the  arrest  of  over  two  thousand 
people  that  woke  up  the  ordinary  man,  who  up  to  that  time  had  been 
a  home-ruler,  perhaps,  to  realize  that  it  was  the  same  old  fight 
over  again  in  their  generation,  although  they  had  not  realized  it  up 


to  that  time;  and  that  when  England  began  shooting  Irishmen,  no 
matter  what  the  Irishman's  political  opinions  were,  he  must  be 
right.  From  1916  on  Ireland  became  more  and  more  consciously 
Republican  in  the  hearts  of  the  common  people.  They  had,  of 
course,  been  instinctively  so.  They  became  consciously  so  after 


The  first  chance  they  had  to  give  expression  to  that  was  in  the 
general  election  of  1918.  In  that  election  Sinn  Fein  or  the  Repub- 
lican movement  swept  the  country.  There  were  very  few  con- 
stituencies in  which  there  was  a  contest.  But  where  there  was  a 
contest  in  the  whole  of  Ireland,  outside  of  Ulster,  there  was  only 
one  man  got  in  who  was  a  Redmondile,  and  that  man  was  John 
Redmond's  son,  who,  because  of  sympathy  for  his  father  and  be- 
cause of  his  hold  on  the  people  of  Waterford,  was  returned. 

Q.     That  is  exclusive  of  Ulster? 

A.  I  am  excluding  Ulster.  In  the  Parliamentary  elections  again 
matters  were — 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  a  candidate  representing  the  Na- 
tionalists in  every  county  in  that  election? 

A.  Oh,  no;  very  few.  There  were  twenty-five  constituencies,  1 
think,  in  which  Republicans  were  elected  without  any  opposition. 

Q.     There  was  very  little  opposition? 

A.     Very  little  opposition. 

Q.     But  where  there  was  a  contest? 

A.  Where  there  was  a  contest  it  was  a  contest  between  the  Red- 
mondites  and  the  Republicans,  and  Redmonclism  was  wiped  out 
completely,  except  in  Waterford,  where  it  was  not  Redmondism 
that  won,  but  a  feeling  for  Redmond's  son. 

In  Ulster  the  case  was  rather  peculiar.  You  have  at  present  four 
men  representing  the  Constitutionalist  Home  Rule  Party  in  Ulster — 
five  men.  Four  of  them  got  in  this  way.  There  were  eight  seats  in 
Ulster  in  which  the  proportion  of,  we  will  say  Nationalists,  using 
the  word  Nationalist  in  its  broad  sense — Ireland  versus  England — 
had  a  majority.  But  if  Sinn  Fein  and  Redmondites  and  Unionists 
went  up,  the  three-cornered  division  would  probably  let  the  Union- 
ists in.  On  those  seats,  upon  the  advice  of  Cardinal  Logue,  there 
was  a  compromise  suggested:  that  they  should  divide  them  equally. 
Our  people  wanted  a  much  fairer  thing  than  that.  Our  people 
wanted  an  election  of  the  Nationalist  population  held,  a  kind  of  a 


plebiscite  of  the  Nationalist  population  held  on  the  preceding  week, 
everyone  to  vote,  and  the  seats  to  he  given  to  either  the  Republican 
or  the  Redmondite,  according  to  the  votes  cast.  If  that  had  been 
so,  we  would  have  had  seven  of  the  eight  seats.  Consequently  the 
Redmondites  did  not  agree  to  it. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  Seven  or  eight  seats  in  Ulster? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  this  does  not  deal  with  the  contests  with  the  Union- 
ists, but  only  with  the  contest  between  the  Republicans  and  the 
Redmondites.  They  would  not  agree  to  this  plebiscite,  so  it  was 
either  let  them  have  half  the  seats  or  give  them  to  the  Unionists. 
I  mean  the  risk  would  be  letting  the  Unionists  slip  in.  So  the  people 
agreed  to  halve  them,  and  that  is  why  you  have  a  few  representa- 
tives still  of  Redmond's  party. 

With  regard  to  the  general  election  of  1918,  it  was  80  per  cent. 
Republican.  It  was  claimed  by  the  British  Government  and  by  our 
opponents  that  it  did  not  represent  a  Sinn  Fein  election  or  a  Repub- 
lican election,  but  an  anti-parliamentarian  election.  It  was  an  anti- 
Redmond  election  rather  than  a  pro-Republican  election.  And  they 
said  that  ever  so  many  people  had  got  tired  of  a  parliamentary 
policy  and  were  willing  to  give  Sinn  Fein  a  chance.  We  knew  it 
was  not  so,  but  of  course  they  had  a  certain  amount  of  plausibility 
behind  their  argument.  And  so  it  was  not  until  1919  and  1920  that 
we  were  able  to  counter  that  and  prove  that  it  was  false  by  the 
municipal  and  county  elections.  It  is  true  that  every  candidate 
who   went  up  had   to  take  the  Republican   pledge. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  was  that  pledge? 

A.  "I  pledge  my  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann  and  the  Parliament 
of  Ireland."  I  do  not  know  the  exact  words,  but  it  was  pledging 
allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republican  parliament  and  renouncing  every- 
thing English. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Every  candidate? 

A.  Every  candidate,  yes,  who  received  Republican  support.  But 
some  said,  after  the  Republican  victory  in  1918:  "Even  so,  the 
candidates  were  Republican,  but  we  have  people  voting  for  the 
Republican  candidates  not  because  they  were  Republicans,  but  be- 
cause they  were  anti-parliamentarian.  They  were  sick  of  parlia- 
mentarianism."  And  so  when  the  municipal  and  county  elections 
came  and  were  overwhelmingly  Republican,  even  more  so  than  the 
general  elections  had  been,  that  argument  was  killed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  was  the  county  and  municipal 
election  of  1920? 



A.  Yes.  In  spite  of  the  fact  thai  in  the  meantime  proportional 
representation  laws  had  been  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  for 
Ireland  for  the  purpose  of  spoiling  the  Republican  elections  and 
getting  in  candidates  who  would  not  otherwise  have  got  in.  Our 
people  had  from  1905  advocated  proportional  representation.  And 
so  when  it  was  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  it  was  opposed, 
not  by  us,  because  we  welcomed  it,  but  by  the  Carsonites.  And 
the  result  showed  that  they  had  good  reason  to  be  afraid  of  it. 
For  the  first  time  we  have  Irish  members  in  the  Belfast  corporation. 
We  have  Irish  Republican  members  in  county  councils  that  before" 
were  wholly  Unionist.  We  have  won  all  over  the  country,  and  have 
lost  nothing.  Probably  in  the  south  and  west  there  are  Unionist 
members  on  the  councils  who  might  not  have  been  there  otherwise: 
but  we  have  no  fear  whatever  of  Unionists  getting  on,  providing 
they  get  on  fairly  and  in  proper  proportion.  We  do  not  dread 
proportional  representation,  and  you  have  a  proof  of  that  by  what 
I  have  given  you  and  what  you  get  in  the  daily  newspapers.  Pro- 
portional representation  was  passed  to  ruin  the  Irish  Republican 
elections.     But  the  only  people  who  opposed  it  were  the  Carsonites. 

I  told  you  I  would  say  something  more  about  my  brother's  activi- 
ties. I  don't  think  there  is  anything  else  about  the  present  situation 
before  I  come  to  that. 




Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Before  that,  while  it  is  a  very  well-known 
subject  in  England,  one  of  the  Commission  has  asked  you  to  briefly 
sketch  the  Act  of  Union,  it  being  claimed  by  many  persons  that 
there  is  some  parallel  between  the  efforts  of  certain  states  in  the 
American  union  to  secede  and  the  efforts  of  the  Irish  people  to  get 
their  independence.     Do  you  understand  what  I  mean? 

A.     Oh,  quite,  Mr.  Walsh. 

Q.  Give  the  date  of  the  Act  of  Union  and  what  attitude  the  Irish 
people  take  toward  it. 

A.  I  would  like  to  deal  first  with  the  suggestion  that  there  is 
any  parallel  between  the  fight  between  your  north  and  south  against 
secession.  If  you  want  any  parallel  you  will  have  to  go  back  to 
1776,  and  not  to  1862.     That  is  the  parallel,  and  not  the  war  for 


secession.  And  I  would  like  to  say  in  connection  with  this  that  you 
had  far  less  reason  to  secede  from  your  mother  country  than  we 
had,  because  she  was  never  our  mother  country.  We  are  a  distinct 
race.      (Continued  applause.) 

Chairman  Howe:  Please  let  the  witness  go  on  without  interrup- 

The  Witness:  I  am  sure  you  will  not  mind  doing  that,  because 
I  am  sure  I  am  taking  up  much  of  the  Commission's  valuable  time. 

We  are  a  different  people.  As  I  told  you  this  morning,  they 
tried  to  kill  our  language  and  make  us  forget  it.  But  you  were 
the  same  people,  many  of  you.  But  you  were  not  going  to  permit 
them  to  take  away  your  liberties,  and  so  you  set  up  a  republic  of 
your  own.  That  is  the  only  liberty.  And  you  became  a  colony 
naturally  in  the  first  place.  Your  liberty  was  never  filched  from 
you.     Our  liberty  was  filched  from  us. 


A  parallel  with  your  war  of  secession  is  the  parallel  between 
Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ireland  today.  And  if  you  maintain  that  you 
were  justified  in  waging  a  long  war  of  five  years  which  nearly 
broke  President  Lincoln's  heart,  if  you  were  justified  in  fighting 
that  war  rather  than  let  a  part  of  your  country  secede,  then  you 
must  admit  that  we  are  justified  in  fighting  for  a  century,  if  need 
be,  rather  than  let  a  part  of  Ireland  secede.  The  parallel  is  the 
war  between  north  and  south  as  far  as  Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ireland 
are  concerned.  But  between  England  and  Ireland  your  Revolution- 
ary War  is  the  parallel. 


The  Act  of  Union  was  signed  by  King  George  III  in  1801.  He 
was  your  enemy  as  well  as  ours.  Ireland  had  always  had  her  own 
parliament.  But  Poyning's  Law  of  1494,  and  what  is  known  as  the 
Sixth  of  George  I,  passed  in  1719,  I  think — I  am  not  certain,  but 
it  was  the  sixth  act  of  George  I's  reign,  anyway — -those  two  laws 
destroyed  all  the  powers  of  the  Irish  Parliament.  Poyning's  Law 
said  that  no  laws  could  be  made  in  Ireland  or  for  Ireland  without 
the  consent  of  the  king  and  the  privy  council  of  England.  That 
was  so  that  no  law  for  the  benefit  of  Ireland,  Irish  commerce,  or 
Irish  trade  could  be  passed,  unless  the  English  king  and  the  English 
council  were  quite  convinced  that  it  would  not  interfere  with  any- 


thing  they  wanted.  The  Sixth  of  George  I  went  a  step  further,  and 
declared  that  all  laws  passed  in  England  were  binding  on  Ireland. 
That  distinction  is  quite  clear.  The  first  said  that  all  laws  passed 
in  Ireland  must  be  approved  in  England.  The  second  one,  passed 
nearly  three  centuries  later,  said  that  all  laws  passed  in  England 
would  become  operative  in  Ireland.  And  thus  those  two  laws 
ruined  all  of  the  power  of  the  Irish  Parliament.  The  1782  move- 
ment followed  very  largely  from  the  example  of  your  War  of  Inde- 
pendence. Ireland  could  not  see  why  she  could  not  follow  your 
example.  But  just  as  in  the  beginning  of  your  war  you  had  no 
idea  of  seceding  from  your  mother  country,  so  those  in  the  Irish 
movement  of  1782  had  no  idea  of  breaking  connection  with  the 
English  crown.  They  wanted  what  they  called  "the  King,  Lords, 
and  Commons  of  Ireland."  They  wanted  an  Irish  Parliament  sepa- 
rate from  that  of  England,  but  the  English  king  was  to  be  the  ruler 
in  both  countries.  After  a  great  deal  of  work  that  was  passed  in 
1782.  But  the  Act  of  Union,  definitely  renouncing  all  power  of 
Ireland  to  pass  laws,  was  passed  in  1801. 

Arthur  Griffith  has  often  had  this  sneer  thrown  at  him,  that  he 
wanted  to  create  another  Grattan's  Parliament.  But  this  is  not  true. 
That  parliament  was  elected  on  a  purely  Protestant  franchise.  Its 
executive  was  appointed,  not  elected.  And  still,  in  spite  of  those 
defects,  when  the  parliament  turned  its  attention  to  Irish  trade  and 
Irish  development,  they  increased  the  prosperity  of  the  country  to 
such  an  extent  in  the  space  of  twelve  years  that  the  English  govern- 
ment called  a  halt  immediately,  and  said,  "This  will  never  do."  And 
so  Pitt  began  to  put  his  clever  mind  to  work  to  see  what  could  be 


To  go  back  a  little  bit.  When  your  war  was  on  with  England, 
and  England's  plan  was  to  raise  an  army  in  Ireland  to  send  over  to 
fight  you,  Ireland  declined.  She  also  wanted  to  bring  in  about  three 
or  four  thousand  Hessians  to  guard  the  Irish  coast,  while  she  was 
sending  over  an  Irish  army  to  defeat  the  Americans.  The  Irish 
people  said  "No,  thank  you.  You  can  send  your  Hessians  where 
you  like.  We  are  not  going  to  fight  Americans  and  we  are  going 
to  take  charge  of  our  own  coast."  But  there  was  no  anti-English 
movement  there  at  all.  They  found  Ireland  so  strong  on  that  that 
they  were  obliged  to  give  in.  Consequently,  you  got  the  Hessians 
and  we  stayed  at  home. 



Now,  we  wanted  free  trade  in  Ireland.  And  when  the  Volunteers 
were  formed  and  got  their  power  they  began  to  say  they  could  not 
see  why  Ireland  should  not  have  the  right  to  trade  abroad  if  she 
wanted  to.  She  was  not  allowed  to.  And  so  she  demanded  free 
trade — the  right  to  trade  where  she  liked.  And  there  is  a  very 
famous  march  of  the  Volunteers  in  Dublin  when  they  took  up  their 
position  before  the  House  of  Parliament  with  a  cannon  trained  on 
the  House,  and  they  put  a  motto  on  the  cannon,  "Free  Trade  or 
This."  I  think  there  is  a  very  striking  parallel  there  between  your 
position  in  1774  and  this.  You  wanted  free  trade  and  you  wanted 
the  right  to  settle  your  own  taxation,  and  not  to  pay  taxation  where 
you  had  no  representation.  That  act  resulted  in  Grattan's  Parlia- 
ment. It  had  its  disabilities,  but  it  doubled  Ireland's  trade  in  a 
short  time,  and  made  it  very  prosperous. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  just  what  years  are  you 
talking  about? 

A.  That  was  in  1782.  The  Parliament  lasted  until  1800.  But  it 
really  was  effective  only  about  ten  years,  because  intrigues  destroyed 
its  power. 

Q.     The  prosperity  you  mentioned  was  during  that  period? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  building  develop  as  well  as  trade? 

A.  Yes.  But  you  must  remember  that  the  Irish  people  at  that 
time  were  ignorant,  and  being  ignorant,  they  were  poor.  The 
Catholics,  then  as  now,  were  in  the  majority.  But  the  Catholics 
did  not  have  a  vote.  The  mass  of  the  population  had  no  represen- 
tation whatever  in  the  government.  Grattan  and  Flood  and  Hely 
Hutchinson  were  all  of  them  Protestants.  No  Catholic  could  sit  in 
the  House  of  Parliament.  It  was  a  crime  punishable  by  death  to 
follow  a  Catholic  service.  No  Catholic  could  own  land  or  lend 
money  on  land.  No  Catholic  could  lend  money  and  take  in  turn 
a  mortgage  on  land,  because  that  would  mean  that  the  land  might 
revert  to  the  hands  of  Catholics,  which  was  against  the  law.  No 
Catholic  could  own  a  horse  worth  more  than  five  pounds.  If  he 
did,  any  Protestant  could  come  up  to  him  on  the  streets  and  say, 
"I  would  like  that  horse.  Here  is  five  pounds.  You  may  sell  it 
to  me."  An  incident  like  that  happened  with  a  great-granduncle 
of  my  own.  He  was  a  priest,  and  had  a  valuable  horse,  because 
he  had  long  distances  to  go  to  see  sick  people.  One  day  he  was 
held  up  by  a  terrible  scoundrel  who  was  well  known  in  the  neigh- 


borhood,  and  he  was  ordered  to  dismount  from  the  horse  and  turn 
it  over.  Instead,  he  put  spurs  to  the  horse  and  got  away.  But  he 
knew  that  would  save  him  only  for  a  few  hours,  so  he  went  to  the 
Protestant  minister,  who  was  a  great  friend  of  his,  and  explained 
to  him.  And  he  said.  "That  is  easy.  You  give  me  the  horse — sell 
it  to  me.  and  1  will  loan  it  back  to  you."  And  he  did,  and  kept 
the  horse.  And  that  shows  another  thing — the  extraordinarily 
friendly  relations  between  ministers  of  religion  of  different  faiths 
when  the  country  was  in  such  a  state  that  a  Catholic  did  not  dare 
to  show  his  face  on  his  own  street. 

The  franchise,  then,  was  restricted.  Only  Protestants  could  sit 
in  Parliament.  But  they  were  Irishmen,  and  they  believed  that  the 
development  of  their  country  was  necessary.  Grattan's  Parliament 
had  its  disabilities,  but  it  was  an  honest  attempt  to  develop  Ireland 
for  the  Irish.  And  one  of  the  first  things  we  shall  do,  I  hope, 
when  we  have  cleared  out  the  army  of  occupation,  will  be  to  take 
up  the  bones  of  Grattan.  who  is  buried  in  Westminster  at  the  feet 
of  Castlereagh,  one  of  the  most  infamous  villains  in  history,  and 
we  will  take  them  back  to  Ireland. 


Pitt  decided  that  the  Irish  Parliament  was  inconsistent  with  the 
rights  of  England  and  that  it  was  injuring  English  trade.  I  would 
recommend  to  you  to  read  a  book  by  Mrs.  Stopford  Green,  "The 
Making  of  Ireland  and  Its  Undoing,"  which  will  tell  you  how- 
England  has  deliberately  destroyed  Irish  industries  whenever  they 
conflicted  with  her  own. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know,  Miss  MacSwiney,  the  name  of 
the  book  which  has  been  published  which  is  a  compilation  of  all 
the  statutes  passed  by  the  British  Parliament  hostile  to  Irish  indus- 
tries, and  also  indicates  the  speeches  made  on  that  subject  in  the 
English  Parliament? 

A.     No,  I  do  not,  but  you  can  find  out,  I  think,  from  Mr.  Fawcitt. 

Q.  I  understand  there  is  such  a  book  that  contains  all  the  hostile 
statutes  and  the  purpose  of  them  and  the  speeches  made  about  them. 

A.  I  am  sorry  I  haven't  it  with  me.  But  we  are  now  living 
history  so  fast  that  the  events  of  a  few  years  ago  seem  very  far 
away  indeed.  But  if  you  want  to  know  the  purposes  of  England 
in  Ireland,  the  book  of  which  I  spoke,  "The  Grammar  of  Anarchy,'" 
containing  the  statements  of  Sir  Edward  Carson,  is  quite  sufficient, 
and  if  you  read  it  you  will  understand  why  an  Irish  Republican 


got  a  term  of  imprisonment  for  having  it  in  his  possession  as  sedi- 
tious literature. 

There  are  many  instances  of  English  statutes  destroying  Irish 
industries.  One  of  the  statutes  of  William  III  was  against  the  Irish 
woollen  industry.  It  was  better  wool  than  the  English  wool  and  it 
was  quite  as  cheap.  Consequently  it  got  a  better  market  on  the 
Continent.  There  is  actually  a  petition  in  the  English  archives  from 
the  merchants  of  England  to  William  III  asking  him  point  blank 
to  destroy  the  woollen  industry  in  Ireland.  They  give  their  reason: 
We  cannot  sell  our  wool  because  the  Irish  wool  is  better.  It  sounds 
very  nice.  Nowadays  they  do  it  more  diplomatically.  William 
promised  them  that  on  the  opening  of  Parliament  he  would  see  what 
he  could  do  about  that.  And  he  did.  He  put  a  tax  of  four  shillings 
a  pound  on  Irish  wool.  And  of  course  ytfu  cannot  expect  a  French 
merchant  to  pay  that  much  tax  on  Irish  wool  when  English  wool  is 
much  cheaper  and  only  a  bit  inferior. 


And  then  Pitt  began  his  little  tricks.  By  this  time  the  Irish 
Volunteers  began  to  admit  Catholics  to  their  ranks,  and  Catholics 
and  Protestants  all  over  the  country  began  to  work  harmoniously 
in  the  ranks  of  the  Volunteers.  At  this  time  there  was  a  dispute 
between  Flood  and  Grattan  as  to  whether  they  would  work  first  for 
Catholic  emancipation  or  work  first  for  the  development  of  the 
franchise  and  the  solidification  of  the  liberty  they  had  won.  They 
disagreed  on  that  point.  Grattan  was  for  Catholic  emancipation. 
But  as  a  Catholic  I  would  say  that  Flood  was  right. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Both  Flood  and  Grattan  were  Protestants? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  they  were  both  Protestants.  Catholics  had  no  say 
whatever  for  thirty-five  years  afterwards.  Another  Protestant,  the 
Earl  of  Charlemont,  was  commander-in-chief  of  the  Volunteers. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  there  not  a  certain  class  of  Protestants 

A.  Oh,  yes.  Everyone  had  to  be  a  forty-shilling  freeholder  in 
order  to  vote.  There  were  large  masses  of  the  population  excluded, 
even  though  they  were  Protestants. 

Q.     Did  Nonconformists  vote? 

A.  Yes.  When  Catholics  finally  got  the  vote,  in  1829,  there  was 
a  rather  interesting  thing  in  connection  with  that.  Up  to  that  time 
it  had  been  forty-shilling  freeholders  who  were  allowed  to  vote. 
Immediately  there  was  a  nice  little  addition   passed.     It  was  not 


forty-shilling  freeholders  any  longer,  but  ten-pound  freeholders. 
The  result  was  to  knock  out  of  voting  a  large  part  of  the  Catholic 
population  that  did  not  have  ten  pounds. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  It  was  true  all  over  the  world  at 
that  time  that  there  was  a  property  qualification. 

A.  Yes.  but  the  forty-shilling  law  held  in  England.  The  ten- 
pound  law  applied  only  to  Ireland,  you  see. 

The  Earl  of  Charlemont  was  commander-in-chief  of  the  Volun- 
teers. He  was  a  very  good  man,  no  doubt,  but  he  was  a  very  timid 
man  in  some  respects.  He  was  timid  very  largely  in  being  afraid 
of  new  innovations.  He  was  afraid  of  Catholic  emancipation.  And 
Pitt  worked  on  his  horror  and  dread  of  Catholic  emancipation  until 
he  split  the  Volunteers  over  it.  Always  the  same  British  policy — 
divide  and  conquer.  The  Volunteers  split  over  the  Earl  of  Charle- 
mont's  resignation.  The  others  wanted  to  keep  the  Volunteers 
intact  and  have  Catholics  admitted.  The  Earl  of  Charlemont  would 
not  have  the  Catholics  admitted,  and  the  Volunteers  split  over  that. 
The  Earl  of  Charlemont  was  a  timid  man  who  was  afraid,  even  at 
that  time,  that  the  pope  would  come  over  and  do  terrible  things 
in  Ireland.  Having  split  the  Volunteers,  the  next  thing  was  to  dis- 
band them-  When  Charlemont  had  them  disbanded,  those  who 
would  not  disband  formed  themselves  into  United  Irishmen,  a  defi- 
nite body  announcing  a  Republican  policy  and  declaring  for  the 
Irish  Republic. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  year  was  that? 

A.     1795,  1796,  and  1797. 


They  sent  to  America  for  American  help  and  sympathy,  and  they 
sent  to  France,  and  Napoleon  was  thinking  about  helping  us.  But 
all  the  great  powers  have  been  willing  to  help  us  only  when  it  is 
for  their  own  interests.  I  hope  America  will  be  an  exception  to  that 
rule.  France  was  at  war  with  England,  and  she  sent  over  an  expe- 
dition to  Ireland,  just  as  Germany  would  have  gladly  sent  over  an 
expedition  to  Ireland  in  the  present  war.  Ireland  would  have  wel- 
comed the  Germans  just  as  she  did  the  French.  She  had  a  right  to 
get  any  help  she  could  in  the  struggle  with  the  enemy.  Not  one  of 
your  people  would  deny  that,  if  you  would  put  justice  before  every- 
thing else.  Many  people  are  afraid  of  the  truth.  There  are  a  great 
many  good  people  who  will  tell  the  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth. 
But  the  whole  truth  sometimes   frightens  them.     And  I   have  been 


told  that  I  am  likely  to  alienate  a  great  deal  of  American  sympathy 
by  acknowledging  the  plain  truth  that  we  would  have  taken  German 
help  if  we  had  got  it  in  1916.  If  that  is  so,  I  ask  Americans  of 
that  opinion  to  try  and  let  their  sense  of  justice  get  the  upper  hand 
of  their  prejudices.  The  fact  that  the  person  who  might  have  helped 
us  was  an  enemy  of  their — 

Senator  Walsh:  They  were  not  an  enemy  of  ours  then. 

The  Witness:  No,  not  an  enemy  of  yours  then.  We  were  not 
pro-German  in  the  sense  that  we  wanted  Germany  instead  of  Eng- 
land. We  were  not  pro-German  in  the  sense  that  we  wanted  Ger- 
many to  dominate  Europe.  If  Germany  had  treated  us  as  England 
has  treated  us,  she  would  have  got  the  same  treatment  that  we  are 
giving  England.  I  do  not  want  to  be  misunderstood,  and  I  am  not 
going  to  purchase  your  sympathy  by  the  sacrifice  of  one  iota  of 
the  truth.  The  truth  is  just  that.  We  were  pro-Irish  always.  If  in 
order  to  help  our  country  an  alliance  with  any  other  country  is 
necessary,  we  were  perfectly  justified  in  forming  that  alliance.  We 
would  be  sorry  if  that  alliance  would  alienate  anybody  with  whom 
we  want  to  be  friendly.  Ireland  would  always  want  to  be  allied 
with  France  rather  than  Germany,  because  France  was  near  us  for 
many  years  and  Germany  was  England's  first  cousin,  say  what  you 
will.  Our  natural  inclination  was  to  sympathize  with  France.  But 
if  we  could  have  got  Germany  as  our  ally  in  our  war  with  England, 
we  would  have  taken  her.  I  must  say  that  because  I  don't  want 
to  be  afraid  of  the  truth,  and  I  don't  want  to  purchase  any  sympathy 
by  denying  the  truth. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  were  at  the  Act  of  Union. 


The  Witness:  The  Act  of  Union  was  passed  in  that  way.  First, 
the  Volunteers  were  alienated  from  each  other.  Having  alienated 
them,  they  were  suppressed.  A  fresh  supply  of  Hessians  were 
brought  over  and  let  loose  on  the  country.  I  cannot  dare  to  tell 
you  of  the  horrors  that  were  committed  by  those  Hessians  and  the 
English  yeomen  in  our  own  country. 

Q.     In  1798? 

A.  Yes,  in  1798.  When  England  dares  to  tell  you  of  the  atroci- 
ties of  other  countries,  she  is  simply  dishing  up  some  of  her  own 
atrocities  in  Ireland,  or  perhaps  in  Egypt  and  India  also. 

Now,  at  that  time  all  the  Irish  Volunteers  who  were  willing  to 
be  Irish  first,  formed  themselves  into  the  secret  society  of  the  United 


Irishmen.  It  had  to  be  a  secret  society,  when  if  it  were  known  to 
be  in  existence  every  member  of  it  would  be  killed  on  the  spot. 
They  formed  their  society  in  secret  and  then  entered  into  the  '98 
insurrection  for  a  republic.  This  was  exactly  what  Pitt  wanted. 
He  wanted  an  insurrection  in  order  to  smash  the  growing  liberty  of 
the  people  and  give  him  an  excuse  for  the  Union.  History  is  re- 
peating itself  today.  In  order  to  get  that  insurrection,  which  the 
people  did  not  want,  because  they  were  not  ready  for  an  insurrec- 
tion, he  instituted  a  system  of  horrors  similar  to  those  of  the  Black- 
and-Tans  today.  The  English  yeomen  and  Hessians  were  just  like 
the  Black-and-Tans  today.  Devastations,  lootings,  murders,  and 
burnings  took  place  all  over  the  country  to  exasperate  the  people 
into  insurrection  before  the  people  were  ready  for  it.  That  insur- 
rection followed,  and  the  result  was  that  the  Act  of  Union  was 


^ou  have  the  same  thing  being  done  in  Ireland  today.  Lloyd 
George  wants  to  get  the  Irish  people  into  the  open  again  so  he  can 
shoot  them  down.  I  believe  that  their  prime  motive  in  letting  my 
brother  die  was  just  that.  Our  secret  service,  you  know,  has  not 
done  badly.  They  have  gotten  a  lot  of  information  about  the 
enemy's  plans.  We  know  that  today  they  want  the  Volunteers  in 
Ireland  to  come  out  into  the  open.  And  they  thought  that  since 
my  brother  had  the  confidence  and  affection  of  the  Volunteers  of 
Cork,  that  if  they  let  him  die,  the  Volunteers  would  lose  their  heads 
and  come  out  into  the  open,  and  then  they  could  shoot  them  down. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  we  not  close  the  question  that  one 
of  the  members  of  the  Commission  has  asked  about,  the  Act  of 
Union,  when  it  was  passed,  and  what  the  circumstances  were? 

A.  Well,  I  want  to  give  you  the  exact  particulars  of  the  passing 
of  the  Union,  and  I  will  just  recapitulate  what  the  Parliament  was 
at  that  time.  It  was  purely  Protestant.  It  was  made  up  of  Protes- 
tant landlords  from  England — placemen.  As  Miss  Addams  has 
just  said,  the  franchise  was  not  democratic  anywhere  in  the  world 
.  at  that  time,  and  I  do  not  think  you  had  any  in  America.  They  had 
in  England,  as  in  Ireland,  too,  what  used  to  be  called  pocket 
boroughs.       That    is.    there    were    certain    districts    which    returned 


parliamentary  members  where  there  was  really  no  population  at 
all.  There  was  one  district  in  Ireland,  a  pocket  borough  in  the 
possession  of  a  West  Briton  of  that  day — that  is  to  say,  a  man  whose 
interests  were  centered  in  England.  In  that  particular  district  there 
was  a  public  house  and  a  little  hamlet  of  about  ten  houses,  two 
of  which  were  inhabited  by  Protestants.  Only  two  people  in  that 
hamlet  had  the  vote,  because  they  were  the  only  Protestants.  And 
they  returned  two  members  to  Parliament.  There  were  other 
boroughs  in  which  there  were  a  half  dozen  houses  represented  by 
two  or  three  members. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  This  was  the  Irish  parliament? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     But  the  same  thing  held  true  in  England. 

Q.  You  are  explaining  the  make-up  of  the  Parliament  that 
passed  the  Union? 

A.  Yes,  and  I  am  explaining  how  it  was  that  a  Parliament 
apparently  composed  of  Irishmen  passed  the  Act  of  Union.  I  have 
told  you  that  this  Parliament  was  made  up  of  Irish  landlords  and 
English  placemen — that  is  to  say,  a  man  who  had  performed  some 
service  for  the  King,  and  was  given  land  in  Ireland,  and  was  there- 
fore entitled  to  sit  in  the  Irish  House  of  Parliament.  But  nobody 
would  call  him  an  Irishman!  That  Parliament,  great  as  was  the 
work  it  did,  was  largely  composed  of  English  placemen,  and  the 
Patriotic  Party  was  small  from  the  beginning.  The  Patriotic  Party 
was  the  Grattan  and  Flood  party.  That  Patriotic  Party  was  in- 
creased, because  even  these  placemen,  when  they  got  land  in  Ireland, 
wanted  the  land  to  be  as  prosperous  as  it  could.  And  so,  unless 
they  got  orders  to  vote  against  a  measure  from  the  people  who  gave 
them  their  places,  they  generally  voted  to  help  Irish  industries.  But 
that  was  the  composition  of  the  Parliament.  You  can  see  that  it 
voiced  only  the  minority  of  the  people,  because  Catholics  had  no 
representation  at  all.  In  the  second  place,  it  voiced  only  a  small 
minority  of  that  minority.  And  since  there  was  open  voting,  no 
man  who  had  a  vote  dared  vote  against  his  landlord.  If  he  did, 
then  he  lost  his  holding  at  once.  If  you  quite  grasp  that,  you  see 
it  was  quite  easy  to  corrupt  a  parliament  of  that  kind.  Pitt  began 
by  giving  a  good  many  placemen  the  right  to  hold  land  in  Ireland. 
It  might  be  only  a  few  acres:  that  made  no  matter;  they  were  land- 
owners. Then  he  got  these  placemen  to  buy  up  all  the  pocket 
boroughs.  You  had,  we  will  say,  a  borough  there  which  contained 
nobody,  but  returned  two  members  to  Parliament.  These  were  sold 
for  fifty  thousand  pounds,  sixty  thousand  pounds,  or  ten  thousand 
pounds  only,  if  they  were  small  ones.  But  they  were  openly  sold. 
The  transaction  of  the  buying  and  selling  of  seats  can  be  found  in 


certain  documents,  even  to  the  present  day.  And  anybody  who 
will  take  the  trouble  to  read  the  life  and  letters  of  Lord  Castlereagh, 
which  is  published  in  six  volumes,  I  believe,  can  see  how  openly 
they  boasted  of  the  buying  and  selling  of  parliamentary  seats. 
There  is  a  poem  in  Ireland  that  begins:  "How  did  they  pass  the 
Union?  By  forgery  and  fraud;  by  perjury  and  corruption  of  every 
kind."  I  do  not  know  the  rest  of  it.  And  when  I  emphasize  that 
point,  I  want  to  emphasize  with  it  that  it  was  not  the  Irish  people 
who  sold  their  Parliament.  The  Irish  people,  the  bulk  of  them, 
had  no  voice  in  their  country  at  all.  The  majority  of  the  Protes- 
tants in  the  country,  who  had  no  franchise,  would  not  have  done 

Now,  suppose  that  tomorrow  morning  you  had  a  Congress  who 
were  in  English  pay  and  under  English  influence.  I  am  only  taking 
that  as  a  supposition.  You  may  be  dominated  by  men  under  Eng- 
lish influence,  perhaps,  because  they  have  their  roots  in  the  May- 
flower; but  they  are  not  in  England's  pay.  But  these  were  men 
placed  in  the  Irish  parliament  to  vote  for  what  England  wanted 
them  to  vote  for.  and  they  carried  out  the  contract.  Suppose  that 
Congress  tomorrow  passed  a  vote  by  a  majority  handing  you  over 
and  deciding  that  you  would  have  a  union  with  England,  and  that 
the  English  king  was  to  be  your  king  again.  Or  suppose  that  it 
passed  a  vote  handing  you  over  to  Germany.  I  do  not  think  the 
majority  of  the  American  people  could  possibly  be  said  to  desire 
a  union  with  England  or  Germany  under  those  circumstances.  Yet 
these  are  the  circumstances  under  which  England  got  the  Act  of 
Union  passed.  She  bought  up  all  the  pocket  boroughs  and  placed 
sufficient  men  in  the  Irish  Parliament  to  pass  the  Act  of  Union. 
And  that  was  how  the  Act  of  Union  was  passed.  When  England 
says,  "The  Irish  people  passed  the  Act  of  Union  and  wanted  to  be 
united  with  us,"  go  and  tell  her  to  read  history — read  Lecky,  who 
certainly  is  not  an  Irishman.  Froude,  the  historian,  will  tell  the 
truth.  Gladstone  himself  says  it  is  the  blackest  stain  on  England's 
history,  the  Act  of  Union. 


And  even  then  they  did  not  keep  their  word.  When  they  passed 
the  Union  they  made  a  solemn  promise  that  the  English  and  Irish 
exchequers  were  to  be  kept  separate.  The  reason  was  that  Ireland 
had  a  national  debt  of  two  and  one-half  million  pounds.  England 
had  a  national  debt  of  over  two  hundred  million  pounds.  Those 
seem  very  small  sums  in  today's  computations.     After  the  Act  of 


Union  in  1801,  Ireland's  debt  was  twenty-one  million  pounds. 
Where  did  it  get  up  to  that  sum?  She  bribed  these  men,  England 
did,  in  the  House  of  Parliament  to  pass  the  Union,  and  then  she 
paid  the  bribes  out  of  Irish  money.  And  then  she  promised  that 
the  exchequers  would  be  separate.  In  1817  the  English  national 
debt,  owing  to  the  Napoleonic  Wars,  had  gone  up  to  something  like 
four  hundred  fifty  million  pounds.  The  Irish  national  debt  had 
gone  up,  I  think,  to  something  like  twenty-five  million.  And  Eng- 
land suggested  that  it  would  be  very  nice  for  Ireland  if  they  amalga- 
mated their  exchequers.  The  Irishmen  representing  Ireland  in  the 
English  Parliament  at  that  time  did  not  think  it  would  be  nice  for 
Ireland  to  saddle  Ireland  with  that  debt.  But  of  course  they  were 
outvoted.  So  the  two  exchequers  were  amalgamated.  One  clause 
of  the  Act  of  Union  was  that  they  should  not  be  amalgamated.  But 
they  were  amalgamated  as  soon  as  it  suited  England.  From  that 
time  to  the  present  day  Ireland  has  been  in  the  control  of  England. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Grattan  and  his  party  then  opposed  the  Act 
of  Union? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  absolutely. 

Q.  Was  it  just  before  the  Act  of  Union  that  Grattan  was  carried 
into  the  House  of  Parliament  on  his  sick  bed  to  make  his  protest? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  carried  in,  practically  a  dying  man,  and  made  an 
eloquent  protest  against  it. 

Q.     What  was  the  vote?     Was  it  close? 

A.     I  cannot  recall  it.    It  was  close. 


I  would  like  to  say  another  thing  about  financial  matters  of  that 
period.  Before  the  war,  while  the  Home  Rule  bill  was  being  dis- 
cussed, we  were  told  that  Ireland  could  not  possibly  govern  herself. 
As  it  was,  she  could  not  pay  her  own  way;  that  England  had  to 
subsidize  her  to  the  extent  of  half  a  million  a  year;  and  what  would 
she  do  if  she  were  her  own  mistress  and  England  would  not  be  able 
to  subsidize  her?  This  was  one  of  the  economic  points  brought  up 
against  Irish  Home  Rule.  Ireland  never  got  a  subsidy  of  half  a 
million  a  year  from  England.  She  got  it  one  year,  and  I  will  tell 
you  how  it  happened.  The  old-age  pension  was  passed,  giving  to 
each  old  person  over  seventy  several  shillings  a  week. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  This  was  quite  recent? 

A.  Yes,  it  was  quite  recent,  but  I  must  go  back  to  give  you  an 
idea.     You  can  get  from  reliable  statistics  an   idea  of  how  many 


old  people  in  the  country  there  ought  to  be.  Owing  to  England's 
misgovernment  of  the  country  and  the  way  she  had  impoverished 
it,  the  proportion  of  old  people  in  Ireland  was  perfectly  abnormal. 
All  the  young  men  and  women  had  gone  out  of  the  country.  In- 
deed, their  emigration  was  encouraged  and  subsidized  by  England. 
In  consequence,  the  proportion  of  old  people  was  much  greater  than 
it  was  in  any  other  country.  The  result  was  that  that  year  there 
was  a  deficit  of  a  half  million,  and  England  used  that  one  year  to 
say  that  she  was  subsidizing  the  Irish  exchequer  to  the  extent  of 
half  a  million  pounds  a  year. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  year  was  that? 

A.     That  was  1912,  I  think. 

When  the  Home  Rule  Bill  became  an  issue  of  practical  politics, 
they  wanted  to  adjust  the  financial  relations  between  the  two  coun- 
tries, and  consequently  there  was  a  commission  appointed  by  the 
King  to  inquire  into  the  financial  condition  of  Ireland  from  1817 
— that  was  the  date  the  exchequers  were  combined — to  1908.  That 
was  about  one  hundred  years.  This  was  known  as  the  Childers 
Commission,  presided  over  by  the  uncle  of  the  present  Erskine 
Childers.  It  was  an  English  commission  appointed  by  the  King. 
They  went  into  all  the  statistics  from  1817  to  1908.  They  pub- 
lished their  statistics.  That  can  be  found  in  all  the  blue  books.  I 
am  giving  you  only  the  results  now.  They  found  that  from  that 
period  Ireland  had  paid  all  her  own  expenses,  every  single  penny — 
all  the  expenses,  including  the  army  and  navy  expenses  in  Ireland, 
which  is  not  really  an  Irish  expense.  She  had  covered  the  whole 
of  it,  and  had  in  addition  paid  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million 
pounds  into  the  English  exchequer.  So  that  during  the  period  when 
we  were  supposed  to  be  an  impoverished  country,  we  had  paid  three 
hundred  sixty-nine  millions  into  the  English  treasury. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  That  was  from  income  taxes,  excise  duties, 
and  so  forth? 

A.  Yes,  all  the  income  of  the  country,  after  the  expenses  were 
paid.  And  yet  England  has  the  impertinence  to  say  that  Ireland  is 
a  bankrupt  country!  Those  facts  are  given  by  the  Parliamentary 
Commission  which  began  sitting  in  1908  and  reported  and  gave  its 
findings  in  1911.  And  remember  what  we  had  been  through  during 
that  time — the  Tithe  War,  the  Fenian  movement,  the  Land  Wars, 
and  all  those  experiences.  We  had  been  through  the  terrible  period 
of  the  famine.  And  yet  all  that  expense  was  paid  for  by  Ireland, 
and  that  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million  pounds  left  over.  I  think 
that  when  we  send  out  the  army  of  occupation,  we  are  entitled  to 
get  back  that  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million  pounds. 


Senator  Walsh :  Let  us  get  ours  first. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  we  will  forgive  her  every  penny  of  it  if  she 
will  only  take  out  her  army  and  let  us  alone. 

I  would  like  to  suggest  that  the  first  relief  ship  that  came  to 
relieve  the  distress  of  America  came  from  Ireland. 




Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  You  might  discuss,  while  we  are  on  this  point, 
some  of  the  great  benefit  that  has  been  given  to  the  people  of  Ire- 
land by  allowing  them  to  purchase  their  land. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  When  you  discuss  that,  will  you  not  discuss 
that  land  levy,  please?  How  much  alien  landlordism  still  exists, 
how  the  people  were  allowed  to  purchase  land,  and  so  forth? 

A.  I  will  do  my  best,  but  I  cannot  be  very  accurate  on  per- 
centages. The  landlord  question  was  very  vital  to  us.  While  it  was 
a  sectional  war,  yet  the  goal  all  the  time  was  freedom,  and  therefore 
those  of  you  who  have  gone  into  the  study  of  history  a  bit,  just 
take  a  broad  view  of  that.  It  was  necessary  to  get  it  done,  and  we 
do  not  worry  very  much  about  statistics.     But  I  will  do  my  best. 

The  land  acts  have  been  very  beneficial  to  the  country.  But  they 
were  not  passed  by  England  to  benefit  the  country.  They  were 
passed  by  the  campaign  in  Ireland  of  Parnell  and  the  Land  League, 
in  the  early  eighties,  I  believe.  That  part  of  history  has  not  been 
written  yet,  at  least  not  very  fully.  I  have  never  read  it,  at  least. 
I  cannot  give  you  full  details,  but  this,  at  all  events,  is  the  outline 
of  it.  When  Parnell  carried  on  his  Constitutional  Movement,  he 
felt  that  it  was  very  necessary  to  get  the  land  for  the  people.  The 
farmers  could  do  nothing,  because  if  there  was  an  adverse  vote  in 
the  district  against  a  landowner's  plans  or  against  England,  the 
farmers  all  got  notice  of  ejectment.  They  had  no  security  of  tenure 
for  their  lands.  It  certainly  was  a  wise  move  for  the  people  to  get 
the  land  tenure  fixed.  But  England  never  gave  those  land  acts  as 
an  act  of  justice.  When  the  Fenians  blew  up  Clerkenwell  prison, 
Gladstone  took  it  into  his  head  in  1871  that  there  was  something 
behind  the  movement,  and  he  had  better  do  something  for  those 
people.  I  could  not  give  the  details  of  that  Act,  but  I  will  come 
to  the  last  Act,  the  Wyndham  Act,  which  has  been  very  beneficial. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  date? 

A.  In  1903,  I  think.  That  Act  has  been  very  beneficial.  It  has 
enabled  the  farmers  to  buy   out  their  land.     They  could  pay  rent 


for  twenty  or  twenty-five  years,  and  at  the  end  of  that  time  their 
land  was  their  own. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  They  paid  so  much  on  the  principal  as  well 
as  the  interest? 

A.  Yes.  Immediately  that  Act  was  passed,  the  farmers  started 
to  improve  their  land.  They  did  not  do  it  before,  because  they 
had  no  security  of  tenure.  Do  you  know,  in  that  period  if  a  mother 
put  a  clean  pinafore  on  her  child,  she  had  her  rent  raised  from 
two  to  ten  pounds  a  year.  And  any  woman  would  say,  "Is  it  not 
better  for  a  child  to  have  a  dirty  pinafore  than  to  have  the  rent 
raised?"  And  that  is  why  you  hear  the  Irish  described  as  a  lazy, 
dirty  people  sometimes. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  that  apply  to  the  whole  country? 
A.  Yes,  to  Ulster  just  as  much  as  the  rest.  That  Land  Act  gave 
the  people  the  right  to  purchase  their  farms.  The  instant  the  farm- 
ers could  purchase,  they  went  on  improving  and  improving  and 
improving.  Why?  Because  they  knew  they  were  doing  that  for 
their  sons  and  their  daughters,  and  they  knew  they  would  not  be 
thrown  out  of  it  next  week.  If  a  man  put  a  new  paling  up  around 
his  field,  he  knew  that  his  rent  would  go  up  several  pounds  the 
next  week,  and  consequently  the  paling  was  not  put  up.  If  too 
many  improvements  were  made,  the  farmer  could  be  ejected  and 
lose  them  all.  But  the  moment  the  farmers  got  their  security,  they 
improved  their  farms.  And  consequently  you  have  a  good  many 
prosperous  farms  all  over  Ireland  today. 

Q.     How  many  farms  have  been   converted  in  that  way  up   to 
today?     Two-thirds  of  them? 
A.     I  don't  know.     Perhaps. 
Senator  Walsh:  It  is  not  as  much  as  that. 
Q.     Chairman  Howe:  And  it  has  led  to  improvements? 
A.     Yes.      But   the   buildings!      Some    of   them    are    very    ugly. 
They  do  not  build  their  houses  beautiful.     I  wish  we  had  a  law  to 
make  them.     At  all  events,  the  houses  are  comfortable,  well  built, 
and  much  better  than  the  old  unhygienic  detached  buildings. 

Q.  How  prosperous  is  the  agricultural  population  of  Ireland 

A.  Of  course,  the  agricultural  population  benefited  by  the  war, 
as  all  agricultural  populations  did.  They  got  high  prices  for  their 
crops,  as  all  of  them  did.  Some  of  them  were  unpatriotic  enough 
to  sell  too  much  of  the  country's  food,  and  some  of  them  had  to 
be  stopped.  I  do  not  know  whether  you  know  of  the  incident  that 
happened  in  Dublin  when  the  Volunteers  stopped  the  exportation 
of  food  because  they  were  sending  too  much  of  it  away.     A  gentle- 


man  in  this  country  now,  Mr.  Lynch,  was  our  food  controller  at  the 
time,  and  he  ordered  that  no  more  pigs  should  be  exported.  But 
the  people  did  not  think  that  the  Irish  government  would  have  to 
be  obeyed.  There  was  a  large  consignment  of  pigs  going  off  to 
England  one  night,  and  the  food  controller  ordered  them  to  be 
stopped.  The  pigs  were  taken  off  and  turned  into  an  abattoir  and 
slaughtered,  and  the  price  was  paid  to  the  owner.  That  had  to  be 
done  in  a  summary  fashion,  but  it  was  a  necessary  act  of  govern- 


Q.  There  have  been  a  number  of  statements  made  about  eco- 
nomic embargoes  on  Ireland  by  the  British  government.  Can  you 
tell  us  anything  about  them? 

A.  I  know  they  have  put  an  embargo  on  everything  they  could. 
They  have  put  an  embargo  on  our  best  port,  the  port  of  Queens- 
town.  Once  Queen  Victoria  visited  us,  and  the  sycophantic  council 
of  that  day  (for  then  it  was  only  that  kind  they  could  get  into  the 
council)  ordered  in  her  honor  that  the  port  should  be  called 
Queenstown.  But  we  do  not  recognize  it  as  Queenstown.  I  would 
like  our  friends  in  America  to  get  into  the  habit  of  calling  it  Cove, 
the  Irish  name  for  it. 


There  was  a  question  about  one  hundred  million  pounds  loaned 
to  farmers  in  Ireland.  That  one  hundred  million  pounds  was  very 
beneficial,  but  I  would  like  you  to  understand  that  the  security 
given  by  the  farmers  was  quite  adequate,  and  that  the  people  who 
are  paying  the  money  are  Irish.  It  was  advanced  by  England  for 
the  time  being,  but  it  is  Ireland  that  is  paying  the  debt.  But  do 
not  let  them  hypnotize  you  into  believing  that  that  money  was  given 
by  England,  for  it  was  not.  England  and  France  borrowed  huge 
sums  from  America  during  the  war,  and  they  borrowed  it  without 
giving  you  security.  But  you  do  not  say  that  you  have  given  them 
a  present  of  all  their  war  debt.  And  this  loan  is  very  largely  paid 
back  already,  and  paid  back  out  of  Irish  money. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  it  was  paid  back  to  absentee  land- 
lords and  those  who  have  succeeded  to  their  estates,  was  it  not? 

A.  Yes.  And  there  is  a  very  large  number  of  farms  where  the 
payments  have  been  completed,  and  that  money  has  all  gone  back 


to  England.  I  believe  the  great  bulk  of  thai  money  lias  been  already 
paid  back. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  To  what  extent  has  alien  landlordism  pre- 
vailed as  it  did  in  the  Hungry  Forties? 

A.  Not  much.  There  are  very  few  big  landlords  today.  They 
may  spend  a  part  of  the  year  in  England  or  abroad,  but  generally 
those  that  are  left  spend  a  part  of  the  year  in  Ireland.  The  alien 
landlord  of  the  early  nineteenth  century  has  gone.  There  are  very 
few  of  them  left  now. 

Q.     That  question  does  not  figure  at  all  any  more? 

A.     No,  not  much  any  more. 

Now,  about  the  embargoes.  I  wish  I  had  Mr.  Fawcitt  here.  He 
has  all  that  on  his  fingertips  and  could  give  it  better  than   I. 

Senator  Walsh:  He  is  coming,  I  believe. 

The  Witness:  Will  you  ask  him,  then? 

Chairman  Howe:  I  did  not  know  but  what  you  are  familiar  with 
the  industrial  issues. 

The  Witness:  I  am,  but  I  cannot  give  you  exact  figures  as  he 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  would  like  to  have  you 
give  us  for  the  record  just  when  there  was  organized  in  Ireland  the 
de  facto  Republican  government,  who  organized  it,  how  long  the 
Parliament  continued  to  meet  in  the  open,  when  it  began  to  meet 
secretly,  and  if  it  is  meeting  now,  how  long  it   will  continue. 

A.  I  would  like  to  answer  the  last  question  first,  because  it  is 
meeting  and  will  continue  to  do  so. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  get  in  the  record  how  much  of  local  govern- 
ment there  is  and  how  it  is  functioning,  and  if  it  will  continue  to 

A.  The  Republic  was  declared  in  1916,  but  for  two  years  there 
was  no  government  to  function,  until  the  general  election  of  1918. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  made  your  declaration  of  independence 
in  1916,  but  it  took  you  two  years  to  get  your  government  organized 
so  that  it  could  function  openly? 

A.  Exactly.  There  were  seven  Irish  Volunteer  leaders  in  the 
Dublin  General  Postoffice  on  Easter  Monday  in  1916,  who  in  the 
name  of  the  Republican  Army  declared  Ireland  a  free  and  inde- 
pendent  Republic.        They    were    Padraic   Pearse,    Thomas    Clarke, 


John  MacDermott,  Connolly,  Kent,  Plunkett,  and  MacDonagh,  and 
they  were  all  executed  for  it  afterwards. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  They  were  executed  for  that  offense — for 
signing  your  declaration  of  independence? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  chief  thing  for  which  they  were  executed. 
Q.     Senator  Walsh:  The  elections  took  place  in  1918? 
A.     Yes.     And  immediately  after  the  general  elections  the  Re- 
publican Parliament  got  busy. 

Q.     Were  the  members  of  that  Republican  Parliament  the  Re- 
publican members  who  were  elected  to  the  British  Parliament  from 
the  boroughs  or  constituencies  in  Ireland? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.     So  that  upward  of  seventy-five  men  who  received  a  majority 
as  Republican  members  of  the  British  Parliament  at  London  from 
Ireland,  these  men  met  to  form  the  Irish  de  facto  Government? 
A.     Right,  quite  right. 

Q.     How  many  altogether  were  elected  from  Irish  constituencies 
to  the  British  Parliament? 
A.     One  hundred  and  three. 

Q.     How  many  of  that  number  met  in  Dublin,  or  wherever  they 
met  afterwards,  to  organize  the  Republican  Government  of  Ireland? 
A.     I  think  that  at  the  very  first  meeting  of  Dail  Eireann  there 
were  only  37,  for  all  the  others  were  in  jail. 

Q.     How  many  joined  in  the  call?     I  want  it  for  the  record. 
A.     I  think  it  was  37. 
Q.     How  many  went  to  England? 

A.  None  of  the  Republicans  went  to  England.  The  only  Irish 
who  went  were  the  Redmondites  and  the  Carsonites. 

Q.  It  was  alleged  in  America  that  sixty  or  seventy  or  so  did 
not  go  to  the  British  Parliament,  and  joined,  either  de  facto  or  in 
person,  to  the  call  for  an  independent  Parliament. 

A.  Yes.  You  see,  there  were  seventy-five  members  elected,  but 
some  of  them  were  elected  from  two  or  three  constituencies.  Presi- 
dent de  Valera  was  elected  from  three  constituencies. 

Q.  How  many  constituencies  were  represented  at  the  first  meet- 
ing, either  by  those  present  in  person  or  in  jail? 

A.  I  suppose  it  would  be  about  sixty-nine  men,  but  the  con- 
stituencies represented  were  seventy-five. 

Q.     So  that  seventy-five  constituencies  out  of  one  hundred  three 
sent  representatives  to  get  a  Republican  organization? 
A.     Yes. 



Q.     Where  did  they  meet? 

A.     In  the  Mansion  House  in  Dublin. 

Q.     But  some  of  them  were  not  there,  because  they  were  in  jail. 

A.  Yes.  President  de  Valera  was  in  jail,  and  my  brother  was 
in  jail,  and  a  number  of  others  at  that  time. 

Q.  What  steps  did  they  take?  Was  this  first  meeting  in  the 

A.     Yes,  oh,  yes. 

Q.  Now,  give  us  the  history  of  that  organization.  It  is  very 

A.  As  so  many  were  in  prison,  the  government  elected  was  only 
provisional.  Because  you  must  remember  that  the  cream  of  the 
men  were  in  jail,  and  those  who  were  left  felt  that  they  should 
wait  until  they  got  all  their  comrades  together  before  electing  a 
regular  government.  So  they  elected  only  a  provisional  govern- 
ment. That  was  in  January,  1919.  In  March  there  was  a  general 
amnesty.  It  was  in  connection  with  the  German  plot  idea  of  May, 
1918,  that  they  were  put  into  prison.  In  March,  1919,  they  let  them 
all  out.  And  then  they  had  the  election  of  the  Irish  Government. 
President  de  Valera  was  elected  president,  and  Arthur  Griffith  was 
elected  vice-president;  and  the  names  of  the  others  I  would  rather 
not  give  for  state  reasons.  Some  of  them  are  known  and  some  of 
them  are  not  known. 

Q.     But  a  complete  organization  was  effected? 

A.  A  complete  organization  was  effected,  and  the  first  resolution 
to  be  passed  was  that  Irish  would  be  spoken  in  the  Irish  Parliament, 
although  English  could  not  under  the  circumstances  be  excluded 
entirely,  and  that  all  the  records  of  the  Parliament  should  be  in 
Irish.  English  could  not  be  kept  out  altogether,  because  some  of  the 
older  men  could  not  learn  to  speak  Irish.  But  all  the  records  are 
in  Irish,  and  all  who  can  speak  Irish  use  it. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  continue  to  function  openly  in  the  eyes 
of  the  British  officials? 

A.  I  think  the  first  attempt  to  smother  them  up  was  on  the  occa- 
sion of  the  American  delegation's  visit  to  Ireland  in  1919.  Senator 
Frank  Walsh,  you  were  on  that  delegation,  I  think. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  No,  I'm  not  a  senator. 

The  Witness:  I  got  mixed  up,  and  it  doesn't  matter.  Coming 
events  cast  their  shadows  before,  perhaps. 


Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Not  for  those  who  are  here,  with  all  due  defer- 
ence to  them. 

The  Witness:  You  see,  the  Irish  Parliament  only  held  a  few  ses- 
sions in  the  open;  and  then  the  word  was  passed  around  that  there 
was  going  to  be  a  meeting  of  Dail  Eireann,  and  the  public  was 
admitted.  But  the  enemy  did  not  get  word  beforehand.  They  really 
held  their  meetings  in  public  for  twelve  months,  or  nearly  twelve 
months  at  any  rate.  But  they  have  been  able  to  do  almost  as  much 
meeting  in  secret.  They  immediately  compiled  statistics  as  to  the 
conditions  of  the  fisheries  and  of  agriculture,  and  the  condition  of 
the  ports,  and  the  improvements  that  could  be  made.  They  have 
done  all  the  ordinary  work  of  government,  and  have  done  it  very 
well  and  very  effectively. 


Senator  Walsh:  Up  to  this  time  the  municipal  and  county  council 
members  had  not  declared  themselves  openly  and  publicly  as  to 
whether  they  were  still  holding  allegiance  to  the  British  Government 
or  not? 

A.     That  is  quite  true. 

Q.  Then  the  elections  came,  in  1920,  when  that  issue  was  pre- 
sented for  all  candidates  for  office  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  state  how  many  elected  members  to  the 
municipal  councils  and  county  councils  declared  under  oath  their 
abandonment  of  allegiance  to  the  British  Government  and  swore 
their  allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.  All  the  county  councils  in  the  south  and  west  of  Ireland,  in 
what  are  called  the  chief  provinces,  and  I  think  three  or  four  in 
Ulster.     But  all  of  the  south  and  west. 

Q.     What  per  cent,  would  that  be? 

A.  That  would  be  twenty-seven  out  of  thirty-two.1  There  are 
thirty-two  counties  in  Ireland.  There  are  nine  in  Ulster.  Out  of 
that  nine  in  Ulster,  there  were  four,  I  think — I  am  pretty  certain 
of  four — that  declared  themselves  for  Dail  Eireann. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  have  seen  the  statement  in  some  English 
paper  that  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  county  and  municipal  councils 
had  declared  their  allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic. 

A.     It  was  fully  ninety-one  per  cent.1 

See  note,  page  155. 


Q.  So  that  in  1920  you  had,  in  addition  to  the  Irish  national 
Parliament,  some  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  municipal  and  county 
councils  recognizing  the  Irish  Government  and  declaring  that  they 
no  longer  gave  allegiance  to  the  English  Government? 

A.     Right. 


Q.  Now,  to  what  extent  did  the  courts  and  judicial  functions 
of  Ireland  pass  from  the  control  of  the  British  government  to  the 
Irish  government  itself? 

A.     It  passed  almost  ahsolutely. 

Q.     Give  us  the  figures,  please. 

A.  I  do  not  know  what  you  mean  by  figures.  Wherever  the 
Irish  Republicans  gained  the  elections — 

Q.  What  I  want  to  do  is  to  get  what  you  claim  the  facts  are, 
so  that  your  friends  in  America  can  get  the  truth. 

A.  Wherever  the  councils  had  declared  allegiance  to  Dail 
Eireann — that  was  in  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  counties — the  courts 
were  established  immediately.  At  first  the  courts  were  not  noticed 
very  much  by  the  British  Government.  She  did  not  like  them,  but 
she  had  no  law  which  could  absolutely  forbid  them.  Arbitration 
courts  were  legal.  And  these  courts,  under  the  head  of  arbitration 
courts,  began  their  functioning. 

Q.  So  that  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  elected  representatives  of 
the  people  established  arbitration  courts? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  But  you  must  remember  that  they  came  on 
only  gradually. 

Q.  Yes,  I  understand.  But  previous  to  this  movement  the  judi- 
cial control  of  Ireland  was  never  a  matter  of  local  control;  it  was 
always  a  matter  of  British  control? 

A.     Yes,  always. 

Q.  So  that  the  entire  judiciary  was  appointed  by  the  British 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     So  what  became  of  them? 

A.  They  sat  in  state  in  empty  courts,  surrounded  by  barbed  wire 
and  soldiers.  And  they  waited  for  cases,  and  none  came.  In  one 
case — I  would  like  to  have  you  notice  that  when  the  judge  came  to 
the  city  he  was  always  lodged  at  one  of  the  friendly  houses  in  the 
city,  in  what  would  correspond  to  your  Four  Hundred,  I  suppose. 
And  when  the  arbitration  courts  began  to  function,  the  Irish  Parlia- 


ment  said  that  these  judges  were  forbidden  to  hold  their  courts. 
The  result  was  that  when  the  judge  came  to  Cork  there  was  no 
lodging  for  him.  He  could  not  sleep  in  the  barracks,  because  it 
was  against  English  law  in  some  way.  And  so  he  had  to  sleep  in 
the  courthouse. 

Q.  So  that  in  Cork  there  was  not  only  no  court  for  the  judge, 
but  not  even  a  bed? 

A.     Yes,  not  even  a  bed. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Were  there  no  hotels? 

A.  There  are  hotels,  but  the  judge,  you  see,  in  Ireland  is  always 
an  obnoxious  person.  You  see,  he  was  in  the  pay  of  the  enemy, 
and  he  was  doing  the  enemy's  business,  and  he  always  came  sur- 
rounded with  a  great  deal  of  police  and  military.  And  so  he  did 
not  consider  it  safe  to  stay  in  the  hotel. 

Q.     How  many  of  these  judges  have  resigned  their  positions? 

A.  Many  of  the  magistrates  have  resigned.  They  sit  in  the  petty 

Q.     Are  they  elected  officials? 

A.  No.  The  Local  Government  Bill  gave  the  right  for  nation- 
alists to  become  J.  P.'s.    But  they  have  many  of  them  resigned  now. 

Q.  But  the  judiciary,  the  English  judiciary  has  practically  dis- 

A.     Yes.     But  they  sit  there  yet  for  purposes  of  state,  I  think. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Now  let  us  come  to  the  police  force.  To 
what  extent  does  the  old  Irish  police  force,  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary, exist  to  this  day?  To  what  extent  has  the  old  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  disappeared  by  resignations  or  by  severing  alle- 
giance to  the  British  crown,  and  gone  over  to  the  Republican  move- 

A.  Several  hundreds  of  them  have  resigned.  I  do  not  know 
how  many  of  them  have  gone  over  to  the  Republican  movement. 
They  have  not  gone  over  as  police.  They  would  not  be  accepted 
as  police.  They  have  been  trained  very  largely  as  spies,  and  they 
have  been  trained  to  spy  on  each  other.  When  we  set  up  a  police 
force,  it  will  be  a  police  force  such  as  the  R.  I.  C.  never  was. 

Q.     That  force  has  largely  broken  down? 

A.     Yes,   although  it  has  been   largely  recruited  from  England. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  I  would  like  to  ask  Miss  MacSwiney 
a  question  in  regard  to  the  resident  magistrates.  The  resident  magis- 
trate is  a  paid  official? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  a  paid  official  appointed  by  the  British  Government. 

Q.     What  has  become  of  them? 

A.     They  have  continued  to  sit  in  their  courts.     If  a  policeman 


catches  something  like  a  petty  thief,  he  will  bring  them  up  before 
the  court.     But  the  court  is  empty  most  of  the  time. 

Q.     Have  not  many  of  them  resigned? 

A.  No.  not  many.  They  have  nice,  comfortable  jobs,  you  know, 
and  are  always  selected  from  the  anti-Irish  population.  Not  many 
of  them  have  resigned. 


Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Does  the  authority  of  the  Irish  courts 
rest  upon  the  consent  of  the  people  or  upon  some  oilier  force? 

A.  Upon  the  consent  of  the  population  entirely.  And  I  do  not 
think  anything  could  show  the  truth  about  the  false  contention  put 
out  by  England  that  we  are  not  a  law-abiding  people  better  than 
the  success  of  these  courts,  with  only  moral  force,  in  many  cases, 
to  enforce  their  decrees.  We  are  a  law-abiding  people  absolutely, 
if  we  are  given  a  chance  to  have  our  own  laws. 

I  would  like  to  stress  the  good  the  courts  did  in  bringing  together 
the  people.  Unionists  brought  their  cases  to  the  Irish  courts. 
Protestants  brought  their  cases  to  the  Irish  courts.  And  although 
they  may  not  have  ceased  to  be  Unionists,  they  have  come  to  the 
conclusion  that  if  they  want  their  claims  settled,  they  must  bring 
them  into  the  Republican  courts.  There  was  one  case  where  a 
Protestant  landlord  had  a  case  which  he  felt  he  must  have  settled, 
and  so  he  took  it  to  the  Irish  courts.  And  his  friends  were  shocked, 
and  remonstrated.  And  he  said,  "I  do  not  care.  If  I  take  it  into 
the  English  courts  I  might  get  a  just  judgment,  but  it  will  not  be 
obeyed.  And  if  I  take  it  into  the  Irish  courts  I  will  get  a  just  judg- 
ment and  it  will  be  obeyed."  And  he  did  get  a  just  judgment  and 
it  was  obeyed. 

There  is  a  rather  interesting  incident  in  connection  with  those 
courts.  Three  men  were  arrested  for  breaking  clown  a  wall.  They 
were  convicted  in  a  Republican  court.  One  consented  to  repair  the 
damage,  and  the  other  two  refused.  We  have  no  jails.  However, 
it  happened  to  be  on  the  coast  of  Galway.  So  these  gentlemen  were 
taken  to  one  of  these  islands  off  the  coast  of  Galway.  They  were 
given  food  and  everything,  for  we  believe  in  treating  our  prisoners 
humanely.  After  a  couple  of  days  the  British  police  heard  wheie 
they  were,  and  went  out  in  a  boat  to  rescue  them.  But  when  the 
British  police  came  out,  these  prisoners  stoned  the  police  and  said 
to  go  away,  that  they  were  prisoners  of  the  Irish  republic  and 
would  not  be  molested. 



Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  nearly  all  the  civil  litigation  and  crimi- 
nal litigation  carried  on  in  these  Irish  courts, — in  the  Republican 
courts  of  Ireland? 

A.  The  civil  litigation  altogether.  The  criminal  litigation  would 
be  a  burden  if  there  were  much  of  it.  But  it  is  not  an  excessive 
exaggeration  to  say  that  there  is  no  crime  in  Ireland.  That  would 
be  true  before  the  trouble  started  rather  than  now,  since  the  Black - 
and-Tans  came.  In  Ireland  there  is  a  custom  that  when  a  judge 
goes  on  circuit  and  has  no  serious  cases  to  try,  he  is  presented  with 
a  pair  of  white  kid  gloves.  And  there  were  sessions  after  sessions 
where  the  judges  going  around  their  circuits  got  white  kid  gloves. 
They  often  made  a  joke  about  it,  that  the  judges  should  set  up  a 
glove  shop.  And  that  is  an  absolute  fact.  There  may  be  little  petty 
larceny  cases  and  breach  of  promises  and  the  like,  and  I  think  that 
is  about  the  most  serious  thing.  We  occasionally  have  a  murder 
case,  but  very,  very  rarely. 


And  with  a  view  to  the  English  support  of  law  and  order  in  Ire- 
land, I  would  like  to  tell  of  the  last  murder  case  before  I  left  Ire- 
land. A  man  named  Quaid  in  County  Clare  in  Ireland,  a  man  with- 
out a  good  reputation,  a  blustering  sort  of  a  bully  who  took  Eng- 
land's part  in  the  war  and  advocated  recruiting,  and  did  his  very 
best  to  get  recruits  for  her.  He  was  a  man  with  a  very  hot  temper. 
And  sometime  about  a  year  and  a  half  ago, — he  was  a  publican, 
a  saloon  keeper — and  he  kicked  one  of  his  bar  attendants  to  death. 
She  was  a  woman.  Kicked  her  to  death  absolutely.  She  was  found 
dead  in  the  yard  the  next  morning.  That  man  deserved  to  be  hanged 
in  any  civilized  country.  His  counsel  made  a  very  long  speech  in 
his  behalf,  showing  that  he  was  a  very  loyal  subject,  that  he  had 
done  a  great  deal  of  recruiting  for  the  army  and  had  gotten  a  great 
many  recruits,  and  that  he  asked  for  a  light  sentence. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    This  was  in  the  British  courts? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  British  courts.  He  got  a  sentence  of  twelve 
months  as  a  first-class  misdemeanant,  which  meant  that  he  could 
have  his  friends  visit  him,  and  his  own  clothes,  and  all  the  other 
privileges  except  that  of  walking  out  when  he  liked.  So  he  got 
twelve  months,  when  men  who  were  found  with  revolvers  in  their 
pockets — which  it  is  the  right  of  a  free  man  to  carry  if  he  likes — 
get  from  two  to  five  years  penal  servitude.    He  got  twelve  months  in 


the  most  comfortable  prison  they  had.  And  the  judge,  in  passing 
sentence,  said  they  would  make  him  as  comfortable  as  they  pos- 
sibly could.  Six  weeks  afterwards  the  man  was  released.  I  believe 
he  developed  a  headache  or  something  like  that.  That  is  the  way 
the  English  keep  law  and  order  in  our  country. 

Again,  three  policemen  were  caught  red-handed  in  Aghada,  not 
far  from  Cork,  in  the  act  of  stealing.  There  were  Americans  there, 
and  the  policemen  were  accused  and  found  guilty  of  stealing  their 
property.  About  two  months  after  that  the  Americans  cleared  out. 
They  got  a  sentence  of  nine  months  each,  I  believe.  But  three  days 
after  your  boys  cleared  out.  they  were  released.  That  is  keeping 
law  and  order. 


Another  case  of  law  and  order  1  would  like  to  mention  is  that  of 
Hardy.  Perhaps  vou  have  heard  of  that  before.  It  was  in  all  the 
papers  of  England  and  Ireland.  It  was  the  case  of  a  spy.  That 
man  got  five  years  penal  servitude,  and  the  judge  who  sentenced  him 
said  his  record  was  the  very  worst  that  he  had  ever  come  across  in 
all  his  years  of  experience  on  the  bench.  About  five  months  after 
he  was  incarcerated,  he  was  released  and  sent  to  Ireland  to  see  how 

many  Sinn  Feiners  he  could  spy  upon.  He  was  sent  to  find  out  who 
the  Sinn  Fein  leaders  were,  how  they  made  their  remarkable  es- 
capes, and  if  they  could  not  get  hold  of  them.  He  visited  Mr.  Ar- 
thur Griffith  and  said  that  he  had  been  a  secret  service  man,  and  that 
his  sympathies  were  very  much  for  Ireland,  and  that  he  would  like 
to  help  them  if  he  could.  He  said  that  he  knew  all  the  movements 
of  the  enemy.  He  could  tell  them  where  Mr.  Hamar  Greenwood 
could  be  found  if  it  was  thought  advisable  to  have  him  visit  another 
planet,  and  he  knew  where  Mr.  Lloyd  George  could  be  found  if  they 
wanted  to  get  him.  Mr.  Griffith  listened  to  him  very  attentively  and 
asked  a  few  questions.  What  the  man  wanted  was  to  get  in  touch 
with  the  Sinn  Fein  council.  So  Mr.  Griffith  listened  to  him  appar- 
ently very  favorably,  and  said,  "Come  back  tomorrow  morning  and 
we  will  see  what  can  be  done  to  put  your  information  before  the 

council."  And  then  Mr.  Griffith  said  when  he  came  back,  "I  have  ar- 
ranged a  meeting  for  you,  and  you  be  here  tomorrow  afternoon  and 
we  will  see  what  can  be  done."  He  did  arrange  a  meeting,  not  of 
the  Sinn  Fein  Council,  but  of  some  newspaper  correspondents,  of 
some  American  and  French  and  Danish  and  other  correspondents. 
He  had  the  only  English  newspaper  man  in  Ireland  he  could  trust, 


the  London  Daily  Herald  man.  And  of  course  he  had  some  Irish- 
men. And  they  sat  around  and  acted  like  a  Sinn  Fein  council. 
But  in  case  their  accents  might  betray  them,  it  was  agreed  that  only 
the  Irishmen  should  speak  at  all.  Hardy  was  asked  to  tell  his  story. 
He  said  that  on  a  certain  night  on  Kingstown  pier  Sir  Hamar  Green- 
wood would  be  crossing  to  England,  and  it  would  be  easy  to  get  him. 
He  was  quite  nervous  when  he  started,  but  as  he  got  along  he  got 
very  fluent.  When  he  got  through  Mr.  Griffith  got  up  and  said,  "Mr. 
Hardy,  you  think  you  have  been  speaking  to  a  Sinn  Fein  Council. 
You  have  been  speaking  to  a  number  of  foreign  press  correspondents. 
They  doubtless  know  already  who  sent  you  here.  And  now  I  want 
them  to  know  your  record."  And  he  gave  them  all  his  record,  and 
gave  him  until  nine  o'clock  in  the  evening  to  get  out  of  the  country. 
Hardy  begged  to  have  until  eight  o'clock  the  next  morning,  and  this 
was  granted;  but  he  was  advised  not  to  be  found  in  Ireland  after 
eight  o'clock  the  next  morning. 

This  is  the  way  the  English  keep  law  and  order  in  Ireland.  They 
take  criminals  out  of  the  jails  and  send  them  to  spy  on  the  Irish. 
And  they  take  them  out  of  the  jails  and  make  Black-and-Tans  of 
them.  There  is  a  friend  of  mine  who  was  temporarily  the  prison 
physician  at  Portland  prison,  and  one  day  he  met  a  man  on  the 
street  in  the  Black-and-Tan  uniform  and  stopped  him  and  said, 
"Where  did  I  meet  you?"  And  the  man  said,  "Oh,  doctor,  don't  you 
know?  I  was  at  Portland  prison  when  you  were  the  prison  physi- 
cian." That  is  the  way  we  get  English  law  and  order  in  Ireland. 
Most  of  the  criminals  are  sent  in  from  the  outside.  We  have  no 
trouble  except  where  the  British  forces  make  it. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  that  due  to  the  Irish  character,  or  is 
that  due  to  the  fact  that  they  are  banded  together  in  this  common 
cause  where  they  must  protect  one  another,  or  is  it  historically  true? 

A.  It  is  historically  true.  There  was  at  one  time  a  great  deal  of 
drunkenness  in  the  country,  but  the  Volunteer  movement  killed  that. 
The  people  are  intensely  serious  now.  The  work  of  our  courts  is 
really  very  light. 


Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Do  these  courts  have  to  meet  in  secret? 
A.     Now  they  do. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  in  the  open? 

A.  They  were  in  the  open  until  about,  I  think,  the  time  of  my 
brother's  arrest.    There  was  a  court  going  on  that  night.     They  are 


open  now  to  those  who  want  to  go  into  them.  The  Irish  public 
knows  where  they  are. 

Q.     And  others  than  the  Irish  can  go  into  them? 

A.  Yes,  but  not  too  openly,  for  then  the  police  or  the  military 
would  come  in  and  break  things  up. 

Q.     But  they  are  going  on  now? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  But  the  British  authorities  have  put  them  down  and 
declared  them  illegal. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  British  Government  specifically  declared 
them  illegal.  They  were  afraid  they  were  getting  too  much  power, 
because  not  only  the  Republicans  used  them,  but  they  were  used  by 
the  Unionists  and  by  the  people  all  over  the  country. 

The  Witness:  I  have  been  asked  to  say  something  here  about  the 
burning  of  creameries  and  destruction  in  general;  the  circumstances 
under  which  the  Coercion  bill  went  into  effect,  as  well  as  the  exact 
circumstances  of  my  brother's  case;  and  the  shooting  of  police. 

I  would  like  to  say  as  quickly  as  possible  with  regard  to  the  shoot- 
ing of  policemen.  I  am  most  anxious  to  speak  to  the  Commission 
on  that  point.  I  have  been  told  ever  since  I  have  come  to  this  coun- 
try that  there  were  three  things  that  were  a  great  stumbling  block  to 
American  sympathy  in  the  Irish  situation.  The  first  was  that  it  was 
a  religious  fight.  The  second  was  that  the  Irish  were  murdering 
policemen.  And  the  third  was  the  difficulty  of  giving  Britain  guar- 
antees that  we  would  not  molest  her  or  let  our  coast  be  used  for  pur- 
poses of  military  aggression. 


With  regard  to  the  religious  difficulty,  there  isn't  any,  except  what 
England  creates.  The  religious  difficulty  of  today  is  created  exactly 
as  she  created  the  religious  difficulty  with  the  Earl  of  Charlemont  in 
1797  and  smashed  the  Irish  Volunteers.  She  keeps  alive  the  re- 
ligious issue  in  Belfast  for  her  own  purposes.  But  there  is  no  trou- 
ble among  the  people  otherwise. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  is  your  history  in  Cork?  Will  you 
kindly  state  if  there  has  ever  been  any  trouble  there  and  what  per 
cent,  of  the  people  are  Catholic? 

A.  I  suppose  that  the  per  cent,  of  the  population  that  is  non- 
Catholic  would  be  about  ten  per  cent.  The  Jews  have  their  syna- 
gogue, the  Nonconformists  have  their  church.  The  Church  of  Ire- 
land, which  has  been  disestablished  and  is  the  Episcopalian  Church, 
have  their  churches.  The  Protestants  of  Cork  all  have  their  churches 
just  like  the  Catholics,  only  they  are  not  so  numerous. 



There  never  has  been  any  persecution  of  the  Protestants  in  Cork. 
If  we  wanted  to  persecute  Protestants,  we  could  persecute  them  and 
make  it  too  hot  for  them  very  effectively.  But  the  very  biggest  busi- 
ness houses  in  the  city  are  owned  by  Protestants.  For  a  long  time 
they  employed  only  Protestants.  That  does  not  hold  any  longer 
now.  They  have  become  more  broad-minded  and  less  bigoted.  But 
the  only  bigotry  shown  in  Cork  has  been  shown  by  Protestants.  A 
business  house  needing  help  would  put  up  a  sign  in  the  window, 
"No  Irish  Catholic  need  apply."  Personally  I  would  feel  like  doing 
something  to  such  people,  but  the  population  of  Cork  did  not.  The 
Protestant  population  of  Cork,  if  asked  individually,  could  never 
prove  a  single  case  of  aggression  on  the  part  of  the  Catholic  popula- 
tion. If  you  went  through  the  whole  length  and  breadth  of  Ireland, 
you  could  not  find  a  case  where  the  Catholics  were  the  aggressors. 
If  they  are  attacked,  they  will  answer  back,  the  same  as  other  people 
would.  But  Ireland  has  been  remarkably  free  from  religious  perse- 
cutions. The  Irish  people  seem  to  be  unable  to  do  otherwise.  We 
are  the  only  nation  in  the  whole  wide  world  that  accepted  Chris- 
tianity without  murdering  the  first  apostles.  We  are  the  only  nation 
in  the  whole  world  that  does  not  show  in  its  history  some  early  per- 
secutions for  religious  heresies. 

Q.  Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  Do  you  have  a  Jewish  quarter  in  Cork, 
— a  Ghetto? 

A.  It  is  not  called  a  Ghetto.  It  has  the  curious  name  of  the 
Hibernian  Buildings. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  You  never  have  had  an  anti-Semitir 
movement  in  Ireland? 

A.  We  never  have  had  a  religious  persecution  movement  of  any 
kind  whatever. 

Q.     But  they  did  that  in  England. 

A.  Yes,  but  England  has  often  endeavored  to  have  persecu- 
tions in  Ireland  without  any  success  whatever.  Queen  Mary  in 
England  started  to  persecute  the  Protestants  in  England.  She  issued 
the  same  writ  for  the  Pale,  the  district  she  owned  in  Ireland.  The 
writ  was  obeyed  in  England.  It  was  not  obeyed  in  the  Irish  Pale. 
The  Catholic  Irish  citizens  refused  to  persecute  their  own  fellow 
citizens.  And  Protestant  citizens  by  the  hundreds  left  England  and 
went  to  Ireland  for  safety. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  But  there  never  has  been  any  persecution, 
even  of  the  Jews? 


A.     No. 

Q.     But  there  is  a  large  Jewish  quarter  in  Dublin,  I  think. 

A.  Yes,  the  Jews  have  a  habit  of  creeping  in,  you  know.  But 
they  are  quite  harmless.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Jewish  population 
and  the  Jewish  synagogue  in  Cork  sent  us  one  of  the  nicest  expres- 
sions of  sympathy  on  the  death  of  my  brother  that  we  had  from 

We  will  not  persecute  anybody.  There  are  very  few  people  in 
Ireland,  even  the  people  who  shout  loudest,  who  believe  in  religious 
persecution.  The  Orange  section  in  the  north  of  Ireland  are  a  very 
ignorant  type  of  people.  They  are  more  like  the  lower  class  of 
England  than  they  are  like  the  Irish.  But  it  is  true  that  they  have 
the  idea  very  firmly  fixed  in  their  heads  that  the  pope  is  going  to 
come  over  to  Ireland  and  persecute  all  the  Protestants.  Of  course 
it  is  nonsense,  but  it  is  one  of  those  ideas  that  are  very  difficult  to 
get  out  of  their  heads.  When  the  English  army  of  occupation  i> 
withdrawn  that  will  disappear.  As  for  not  coming  under  the  Irish 
Parliament,  they  will  have  to.  We  are  not  going  to  have  anything 
like  Englishmen  in  our  country.  We  will  give  them  any  kind  of 
guarantees  they  like,  but  we  will  give  it  to  them  and  not  to  the 

So  much  for  the  religious  difficulty.  The  fact  that  there  will  not 
be  any  religious  persecution  under  the  Irish  Government  can  be 
proved  only  by  experience.     We  know  there  will  not  be. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  have  Catholic  constituencies 
elected  Protestants  to  represent  them  in  the  British  Parliament  and 
on  the  county  and  city  councils? 

A.     Very  many  of  them. 

Q.     Have  you  had  Protestant  mayors  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes,  the  third  last  was  a  Protestant. 

O.      Have  you  other  Protestant  officials? 

A.     Yes,  the  senior  alderman  is  a  Protestant. 

Q.     Who  is  he? 

A.     Alderman  Beamish. 

Q.     Is  he  a  Unionist? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  true  all  over  the  Catholic  part  of  Ireland  that  they  have 
elected  mayors  repeatedly  who  have  not  been  of  the  Catholic  faith? 

A.  It  is  true,  true  repeatedly,  that  a  Protestant  is  elected  if  he  is 
the  best  man.  But  they  would  not  elect  a  Unionist  at  all,  no  matter 
what  his  religion  was.  Thomas  Davis  said  in  one  of  his  poems: 
''There  art  two  great  parties  in  the  end.  You  are  one  with  us  if 
you  are  Ireland's  friend."     If  a  man  is  for  Ireland,  we  never  ask 


him  his  religion.     If  he   is  a  Catholic  and  we  knew  that  he  was 
against  Ireland,  out  he  would  go.    It  is  Ireland  that  matters. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  To  come  back  to  the  industries. 
The  textile  industries  of  Ireland,  where  do  they  exist? 

A.  In  the  south  of  Ireland  and  Belfast  and  Balbriggan.  The 
hosiery  factory  at  Balbriggan  that  was  destroyed  lately  was  owned 
by  an  Englishman  and  a  Unionist.  But  of  course  the  injury  to  him 
was  unintended.  The  factory  was  burned  to  destroy  the  industry 
of  the  town. 

Q.     Did  that  give  employment  to  many  people? 

A.  Yes,  to  several  hundreds.  It  is  the  main  industry  of  that 

Q.     Are  you  acquainted  in  the  north? 

A.     Not  very  well. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  these  textile  workers  are  organized 
into  labor  unions? 

A.  They  are,  but  they  ignore  their  unions  when  the  time  comes 
to  have  a  fight  against  the  Catholics. 

Q.     In  the  north  of  Ireland  are  they  organized? 

A.  There  are  trade  unions  in  the  north  of  Ireland,  but  they  are 
spoiled  by  this  bigotry. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  perhaps  these  religious  differences 
may  be  more  economic  than  political ;  that  those  who  profit  by 
keeping  these  employees  divided,  by  keeping  them  unorganized, 
wherever  there  is  an  effort  made  to  improve  their  standard  of  living, 
they  simply  start  a  religious  war  among  them  and  make  organiza- 
tion impossible? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  largely  true.  But  the  main  interest  in  Ireland  is 
not  a  capitalistic  one.  It  is  a  political  one.  It  is  England  versus 
Ireland  all  the  time. 

Q.  Yes,  but  now  the  burning  down  of  that  mill  was  not  political. 
That  was  owned  by  a  British  capitalist. 

A.     Yes,  that  was  Mr.  Smith. 

Q.  Yes.  That  was  simply  to  harass  the  people  who  worked 

A.  Yes.  It  was  not  an  attack  on  the  individual  owner.  It  was 
simply  the  English  policy  of  starvation.  They  are  trying  to  throw 
the  people  out  of  work  and  prevent  them  getting  food  and  starve 
them  into  submission. 


Q.  I  have  been  informed  that  labor  organizers  in  the  north  of 
Ireland  are  endeavoring  to  organize  the  Protestants.  In  previous 
years  they  have  endeavored  to  organize  both  Catholics  and  Protes- 
tants. This  time  they  said,  we  will  organize  the  Protestants  and  we 
can  get  the  Catholics  later.  Then  when  the  employers  heard  of  it 
they  told  the  Protestant  employees  that  it  was  a  Catholic  trick.  So 
the  regular  organizers  went  over  to  organize  the  Catholics,  and  then 
the  employers  told  the  Catholics  that  it  was  a  Protestant  trick.  Do 
vou  not  think  that  it  was  a  game  of  playing  the  parties  off  against 
each  other? 

A.     Yes,  but  the  fundamental  difference  is  political. 

Q.  Yes,  but  the  religious  differences  are  inspired  more  by  the 
economic  than  by  the  political  issues. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  quite  possible. 


Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Now,  I  handed  you  a  list  of  questions. 

A.  Yes.  I  have  discussed  the  first.  That  one,  the  religious  diffi- 
culty, does  not  exist.  I  will  take  the  next  one,  the  guarantee  for 
England's  supremacy,  I  shall  say,  or  England's  safety. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    They  call  is  safety. 

The  Witness:  They  call  it  safety.  Our  President  took  lately  the 
first  paragraph  of  the  new  agreement  made  with  Cuba  by  the  United 
States.  It  is  a  guarantee  that  the  ports  of  Cuba  will  not  be  given 
to  any  foreign  power  or  used  in  any  way  that  would  injure  the 
United  States.  I  am  not  sure  of  the  wording  of  it.  But  the  point 
is  this:  that  we  are  perfectly  willing  to  give  a  promise  that  we  will 
not  let  any  other  foreign  power,  or  any  power,  use  our  ports  as  a 
war  base. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Against  Great  Britain? 

A.  Yes.  We  are  perfectly  willing  to  give  that  guarantee  and  to 
keep  it,  because  when  we  get  our  Republic,  we  are  not  going  to  go 
to  war  with  anybody.  Neither  will  we  allow  our  ports  to  be  used 
by  one  big  nation  that  wants  to  make  war  on  another  big  nation. 
England  says  that  is  not  enough.  If  it  is  not  enough,  she  will  have 
to  do  without.  She  is  not  going  to  keep  us  perpetually  in  slavery. 
England  will  have  to  be  satisfied  with  what  is  right  from  us.  She 
will  have  to  be  satisfied  with  justice  to  our  interests  as  well  as  hers. 
We  will  be  perfectly  willing  to  be  good  friends  and  forget  the  past, 
provided  she  clears  out  and  leaves  us  alone.  If,  as  Lloyd  George 
said  some  time  ago,  England  will  never  agree  to  an  Irish  Republic 


until  England  is  beaten  to  the  ground,  well,  I  am  very  sorry,  because 
England  will  have  to  be  beaten  to  the  ground.  And  perhaps  Ma- 
taulay's  traveler,  who  stood  on  London  bridge  and  looked  on  the 
ruins  of  St.  Paul's,  is  already  on  the  horizon.  At  any  event,  we  are 
going  to  get  our  freedom.  England  cannot  keep  us  in  slavery. 
You  cannot  keep  in  slavery  a  people  every  individual  of  whom  is 
willing  to  die  for  the  principle  of  freedom.  So  much  for  the  third 


The  second  thing  I  was  asked  is  about  what  is  called  often  the 
murdering  of  policemen.  Here  it  is  called  the  shooting  of  police- 
men. I  will  simply  take  the  murders  of  policemen  by  denying  that 
there  ever  has  been  a  policeman  murdered  in  Ireland.  Now  I  will 
deal  with  the  shooting  of  policemen.  Will  you  please  start  out  with 
the  premise  that  Ireland  and  England  are  at  war.  One  of  the  in- 
stances about  the  shooting  of  policemen  was  the  ambush  of  seven- 
teen Black-and-Tans  last  week  at  a  place  not  far  from  Mallow,  when 
the  whole  seventeen  of  them  were  captured,  sixteen  of  them  killed, 
and  the  seventeenth  very  severely  wounded.  That  was  put  down  as 
a  very  horrible  murder.  Suppose  that  in  the  recent  war  an  Ameri- 
can scouting  party  went  out  on  a  Belgian  road  and  got  information 
that  three  or  four  lorries  of  German  soldiers  carrying  ammunition 
were  coming  along  the  road.  If  they  felt  strong  enough,  and  if 
they  were  very  plucky, — perhaps  even  if  they  did  not  feel  strong 
enough,  they  would  get  into  a  nice  little  ambush  and  they  would 
give  the  best  account  of  that  German  party  that  they  possibly  could. 
I  think  you  will  agree  with  me  that  that  is  a  statement  of  what 
would  happen.  Would  you  do  anything  but  laugh  at  any  man  that 
would  call  that  ambush  party  murder?  Of  course  it  is  not  a  mur- 
der. It  is  an  act  of  war.  The  Black-and-Tans  were  armed  to  the 
teeth.  I  should  like  to  tell  you  how  the  Black-and-Tans  go  around 
the  streets  of  our  cities  and  country  places.  Four  or  five  days  ago 
there  was  an  ambush  at  Bandon,  and  in  that  ambush  our  men  got 
the  worst  of  it. — four  or  five  of  our  men  were  killed.  You  will  not 
find  any  Irish  citizen  coming  before  this  Commission  and  claiming 
that  these  men  were  murdered.  Why?  Because  it  was  an  act  of 
war.  It  was  the  shooting  of  one  set  of  soldiers  by  another  set  of 
soldiers.  I  think  there  is  an  incident  in  American  history  known  as 
the  Boston  Massacre.  I  am  not  quite  conversant  with  American  his- 
tory.    I  know  a  fair  share  of  it,  but  I  feel  diffident  about  talking 


American  history  in  your  presence.  But  I  think  that  in  that  Boston 
Massacre  two  or  three  or  perhaps  more  British  officers  were  shot, 
and  perhaps  several  civilians.  I  think  that  the  shooting  of  those 
officers  was  described  as  murder,  and  the  shooting  of  the  civilians 
was  described  as  the  shooting  of  rascally  rebels.  Do  you  agree  that 
the  shooting  of  those  officers  was  murder?  You  may  do  so  if  you 
wish.  I  do  not.  I  do  not  agree  that  the  shooting  of  any  of  the 
armed  forces  of  the  British  Crown  while  they  are  armed  is  murder. 
It  is  not.  I  will  tell  you  this:  every  single  individual  in  the  enemy's 
uniform  who  passes  through  the  streets  and  roads  of  our  country  by 
that  act  commits  an  act  which  by  the  laws  of  international  warfare 
renders  him  worthy  of  death.  Any  German  soldier  who  went  out  in 
the  streets  of  Belgium  during  the  late  war  was  shot  if  his  enemy 
could  shoot  him.  I  think  that  a  little  clear  thinking  on  these  points 
would  be  advisable  before  we  are  accused  of  wholesale  murder. 


I  have  also  been  told  that  individual  policemen  who  were  un- 
armed have  been  shot.  That  is  also  true.  Now  I  will  tell  you  who 
those  individual  policemen  are.  I  was  asked  a  little  while  ago  about 
the  police  in  Ireland.  The  police  in  any  civilized  country  are  a 
civil  force  under  the  control  of  the  civil  authorities,  and  that  civil 
force  deals  with  offences  against  the  civil  law  only.  The  police  in 
Ireland  have  always  been  under  the  authority  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment. They  have  not  always  carried  arms,  because  there  have  been 
times  when  we  were  not  in  a  state  of  war.  But  they  carry  arms  at 
present,  and  therefore  they  are  among  the  armed  forces  of  the 
Crown.  Among  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  was  a  division  known 
as  the  G  Division.  Their  work  was  purely  detective  work.  The 
people  they  were  sent  to  spy  upon  were  our  fellow  citizens.  And 
that  went  on  during  every  political  agitation  in  Ireland.  During  the 
present  war,  since  1916 — since  1914,  in  fact — the  police  in  that  G 
Division  were  very  active.  I  am  sorry  to  have  to  acknowledge  that 
they  were  Irishmen.  That  only  makes  them  greater  sinners.  No 
one  is  held  in  greater  horror  and  contempt  than  Judas,  and  every 
one  of  those  men  was  a  Judas  because  he  betrayed  his  own.  In  that 
G  Division  were  men  who  were  expert  spies,  because  they  were 
people  that  mixed  freely  with  the  Irish  people  and  picked  up  infor- 
mation from  girls  whom  they  met  and  other  people,  and  they  gave 
that  information  to  the  British  Government,  and  that  information 
led  very  often  to  the  arrest  and  imprisonment  of  their  fellow  coun- 


trymen.  Therefore  they  were  spies.  In  the  recent  times  in  Ireland, 
when  the  times  got  very  hot,  these  spies  have  done  very  good  work 
for  the  English  Government  in  Ireland.  One  of  our  leaders  who  was 
executed  in  1916  was  executed  through  one  of  those  spies,  who  has 
himself  been  shot  since.  During  Easter  Week  some  of  the  Volun- 
teers were  anxious  to  shoot  down  every  policeman,  every  police  spy, 
that  is — every  policeman  of  the  G  Division;  but  the  leaders,  Pearse 
and  MacDermott,  said,  "No,  this  is  a  clean  fight,  and  we  will  deal 
with  them  afterwards."  There  was  one  detective  who  was  very 
active  in  tracking  down  our  men.  His  life  was  saved  by  John  Mac- 
Dermott, one  of  the  signatories  of  the  Irish  Declaration  of  Inde- 
pendence. John  MacDermott  was  a  very  young  man,  and  he  was 
very  lame.  As  a  soldier  he  would  be  considered  as  among  the  unfit 
in  any  army  in  the  world.  But  he  was  one  of  the  greatest  workers 
we  had.  Because  of  his  lameness  the  military  officers  who  captured 
the  people  after  Easter  Week  came  to  the  conclusion  that  he  could 
not  be  one  of  the  leaders,  and  so  he  was  thrown  into  the  barracks 
along  with  the  rank  and  file,  and  he  was  put  in  the  batch  to  be  sent 
to  the  Wakefield  prison  in  England.  They  were  paraded  in  the 
Richmond  barrack  yards  before  leaving  Dublin,  and  this  particular 
detective  was  sent  up  and  down  the  ranks  to  see  if  there  was  any 
man  there  who  ought  to  get  penal  servitude  rather  than  deportation. 
And  in  going  up  and  down  the  ranks  he  saw  John  MacDermott,  and 
he  pointed  him  out  to  the  British  authorities  as  one  of  the  seven 
signatories  of  the  Irish  Declaration  of  Independence.  And  John 
MacDermott  was  taken  out  and  shot  a  few  days  afterwards. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Was  this  the  man  whose  life  he  had  saved? 

A.  This  was  the  v.ery  man  whose  life  he  saved.  And  that  man 
has  subsequently  been  shot,  and  shooting  was  too  gentle  a  dealth 
for  such  a  wretch. 

No  unarmed  policeman  has  been  shot  in  Ireland  unless  he  has 
been  proved  a  spy.  And  he  has  been  proved  a  spy  on  good  evidence. 
Our  Irish  Secret  Service,  like  other  divisions  of  the  Irish  Govern- 
ment, is  rather  efficient.  We  have  captured  the  official  and  private 
correspondence  of  Lord  French,  and  we  have  sent  back  his  personal 
correspondence  marked  "Censored  by  the  I.  R.  A."  His  official  cor- 
respondence he  did  not  get  back.  The  official  correspondence  we 
have  captured  from  time  to  time  has  been  conclusive  evidence  that 
there  are  spies  at  work  among  us.  One  morning  a  policeman  com- 
ing along  from  the  general  postoffice  with  a  mail  bag  was  stopped 
on  the  street  by  two  Volunteers  and  relieved  of  his  mail  bag.  It  is 
not  always  done  as  openly  as  that  on  the  streets  at  eight  o'clock  in 
the  morning.     He  was  sent  home  without  his  mail  bag.     That  mail 


bag  contained  conclusive  evidence  against  a  man  who  had  been  sus- 
pected as  a  spy  for  a  long  time.  And  he  paid  the  penalty  that  all 
spies  pay. 

You  may  hold  up  your  hands  in  horror  and  say  we  are  not  justi- 
fied in  shooting  spies.  They  are  people  that  I  have  a  great  deal  of 
contempt  for.  but  I  have  a  great  deal  of  contempt  for  many  people 
I  would  not  shoot.  But  I  ask  you  this:  what  right  have  you  or  any 
other  nation  to  object  to  our  shooting  spies  unless  you  object  to  the 
shooting  of  spies  for  yourself  and  your  allies?  It  has  been  sug- 
gested that  these  men  should  have  an  open  trial.  There  were  a  good 
many  spies  shot  in  England  at  the  beginning  of  the  war.  I  believe 
that  the  question  was  asked  in  the  House  of  Commons  why  they 
were  not  given  an  open  trial.  And  the  answer  was  that  it  would  be 
giving  aid  and  information  to  the  enemy.  If  England  is  allowed  to 
shoot  her  spies  without  an  open  trial,  why  should  we  not  too?  I 
do  not  know  whether  America  had  any  spies  to  shoot  during  the 
recent  war. 

Chairman   Howe:    Not  in  this  war. 

The  Witness:  But  in  any  war  where  you  found  spies  to  be  shot, 
you  shot  them.  Very  well.  But  spies  in  Ireland  have  only  been 
shot  on  official  evidence,  and  the  official  evidence  was  very  largely 
obtained  from  themselves,  from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Have  any  Irish  Republican  officers  who  have 
been  spies  of  the  government  been  shot  by  the  British? 

A.  I  do  not  really  know  whether  we  have  any  spies  like  that. 
When  I  say  that  we  have  a  secret  service  force,  I  mean  those  who 
capture  the  mails  and  get  information  like  that. 

Q.  But  you  seek  the  same  right  for  the  officers  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publican Army  to  shoot  British  spies  as  the  British  exercise  in  shoot- 
ing Irish  secret  service  men? 

A.  Yes,  I  ask  only  this,  that  when  England  calls  the  shooting  of 
the  spies  she  captures  murder,  she  can  begin  to  call  the  shooting  of 
the  spies  that  she  employs  murder.  You  must  begin  to  use  the 
proper  word.  The  shooting  of  spies  is  not  murder.  The  only  mur- 
ders we  have  had  in  Cork  in  many,  many  years — I  am  not  a  young 
woman  any  more — but  in  all  my  life  I  can  only  remember  two  mur- 
ders in  Cork,  and  I  do  not  think  there  would  be  more  than  four  or 
five  in  Ireland.  And  the  murder  that  I  told  you  of,  that  man  who 
kicked  his  barmaid  to  death,  was  sentenced  by  the  British  Govern- 
ment to  the  lightest  sentence  that  he  could  possibly  get,  and  let  out 
after  six  weeks. 



Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  want  to  ask  a 
few  questions  to  get  this  straight.  You  say  that  policemen  are  not 
shot  indiscriminately,  but  that  only  when  they  are  spies  and  have 
done  work  worthy  of  death? — that  is,  unarmed  policemen? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  also  say  that  some  are  ambushed  and  shot  that  way? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  There  is  also  a  third  case  that  happened  when  you  were  on 
the  water,  perhaps.  Something  like  fourteen  policemen  were  shot 
at  different  times  and  places,  some  on  duty  and  some  off;  some  of 
them  in  their  homes. 

A.     Fourteen  of  them?     Those  were  in  Fermoy,  perhaps? 

Commissioner  Thomas:    No,  in  Dublin. 

The  Witness :  Oh,  those  men  were  spies.  They  were  English  secret 
service  men  who  had  the  clews  of  the  machinery  of  our  government. 
I  believe  they  were  the  head  men  there,  who  were  doing  untold  dam- 
age. I  do  not  know  the  details.  But  I  know  this:  if  any  of  those 
men  were  shot  by  the  Irish  Republican  Army,  they  were  shot  justly 
and  after  warning. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    What  do  you  mean  by  warning? 

A.     Oh,  they  have  been  told  that  they  would  be  shot. 

Q.  You  mean  that  they  were  told  they  would  be  shot  if  they  did 
not  leave  the  country? 

A.     Yes,  they  had  to  leave  the  country. 

Q.     If  they  left  the  country  they  would  not  be  shot? 

A.  Yes,  if  they  left  the  country  they  would  be  safe.  We  would 
have  no  further  objection.     They  would  not  be  shot. 


Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  said  that  one  object  of  the 
British  Government  was  to  drive  the  Irish  people  into  open  war- 
fare ? 

A.     Yes.     It  is  guerilla  warfare  now. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  England  would  then  be 
justified  in  arresting  the  vice-president  of  the  Irish  Republic  as  an 
act  of  war? 

A.     She  has  done  it. 

Q.  Yes,  but  you  say  that  she  is  justified  in  doing  it,  though,  as 
an  act  of  war? 



but   1 


iv  that 






in  Ire 




1ml  it 



ing  l 


is  not   justified   in  doing  any  act  of 

»  the  code  of  war.  tin-  ethics  of  war. 
if  yon  could  use  that  word,  that  Arthur  Griffith  is  in  prison  at  this 

A.  Yes.  with  one  proviso  that  covers  my  brother's  case  at  the 
same  time.  Why?  Because  when  two  countries  are  at  war,  and 
when  the  officers  of  one  country  are  captured  by  another,  they  should 
be  given  the  status  of  prisoners  of  war.  If  my  brother  had  been 
given  the  status  of  a  prisoner  of  war,  he  would  never  have  gone  on 
hunger  strike.  If  Arthur  Griffith  is  given  the  treatment  of  a  prisoner 
of  war.  well  and  good.  But  what  we  object  to  and  what  we  fight 
against  and  what  my  brother  died  to  protest  against  is  the  assump- 
tion of  England  that  she  is  entitled  to  arrest  us  and  drag  us  off  to 
prison  or  execute  us  because  she  owns  our  country. 

Q.  I  understand.  But  according  to  the  code  of  war,  military 
search  and  seizure  is  not  the  thing  that  it  is  under  the  code  of  peace. 
Now,  military  search  and  seizure,  you  would  say,  is  not  any  special 
disability  in  Ireland  at  the  present  time? 

A.     \es,  granted  the  treatment  of  prisoners  of  war. 
Q.     In  other  words,  granting  your  point  of  view  that  England  has 
no  right  to  be  in  a  state  of  war  with  you? 

A.  We  do  not  complain  against  search  and  seizure,  against  ar- 
rest, against  anything  except  vindictive  reprisals  against  the  civilian 
population;  providing  only  that  the  people  so  arrested  are  treated 
as  prisoners  of  war  and  not  as  common  criminals. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Accepting  that  you  are  in  a  state  of  war  with 

A.     Accepting  that  we  are  in  a  state  of  war. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  In  other  words,  there  is  a  distinction 
to  be  drawn  against  the  burning  of  factories,  as  at  Balbriggan,  and 
the  burning  of  creameries  and  the  destruction  of  civilian  homes, 
which  is  wrong,  even  under  conditions  of  war,  because  it  is  the  de- 
struction of  civilian  property.  But  search  and  seizure  and  impris- 
onment you  do  not  object  to? 

A.  Right,  exactly,  if  they  give  us  the  status  of  prisoners  of  war. 
But  they  are  not  doing  that.  But  as  long  as  England  holds  that  she- 
is  arresting  us  as  criminals  or  as  rebels,  as  she  once  said,  and  gives 
us  the  treatment  of  criminals  rather  than  prisoners  of  war,  she  is 
not  justified. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  claim  that  the  shooting  of  these  men 
who  are  spies  would  be  justified  the  same  as  England  is  in  shooting 


A.     Certainly. 

Q.  But  it  is  quite  a  different  thing  for  England  to  shoot  at  ran- 
dom at  a  crowd  of  civilians? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  Now  here  is  the  thing  we  have  to  contend 
with  on  the  country  roads. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Wait  a  minute.  Is  that  taking  up  another 
sub  j  ect  ? 

A.     You  want  to  stop  now,  Mr.  Howe? 

Chairman  Howe:  It  is  now  ten  minutes  to  six,  and  perhaps  we 
should  stop  now  before  you  branch  out  into  any  new  subject. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Have  you  finished  with  the  shooting  of 

A.  No,  there  is  one  thing  more.  Policemen  have  been  shot 
either  accidentally  or  on  purpose  by  other  policemen.  There  is  one 
case  that  happened  lately,  about  which  I  can  give  you  no  absolute 
proof.  It  is  the  case  of  the  shooting  of  an  old  sergeant,  Sergeant 
O'Donovan  or  O'Donoghue.  It  happened  about  the  time  of  my 
brother's  death,  between  that  time  and  the  time  I  left  home.  I  know 
that  that  was  murder,  and  was  not  done  by  any  of  our  people.  He 
was  an  inoffensive  old  man  and  within  a  few  months  of  his  pension 
time.  He  had  not  committed  a  single  act  of  aggression  against  our 
people.  He  was  not  acting  as  a  spy.  He  was  doing  no  harm  to  any- 
body, and  not  a  single  Irish  Volunteer  would  have  shot  him.  And 
this  man  was  to  have  his  pension  and  retire  from  the  force  in  a  very 
short  time.  He  had  not  taken  any  part  in  the  work  of  the  Black- 
and-Tans.  And  he  was  found  shot.  The  Black-and-Tans  have  shot 
several  men  like  that  who  would  not  act  as  spies,  in  the  hope  of 
throwing  further  odium  on  Sinn  Fein,  as  they  call  it. 


Also  they  have  taken  out  and  flogged  and  shot  policemen  who 
have  resigned  from  the  force,  and  they  have  done  that  in  uniform. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    That  is,  before  the  expiration  of  their  term? 

A.  Before  the  expiration  of  their  term.  They  have  shot  them  in 
uniform,  and  all  these  shootings  have  been  put  down  as  to  the  Irish 
Republican  Government.  We  do  not  accept  the  responsibility,  be- 
cause these  are  murders  committed  by  these  men  for  the  purpose  of 
throwing  odium  on  Sinn  Fein. 


Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Are  any  of  these  Irish  state  police- 
men or  Irish  Constabulary  resigning?     If  so,  why  do  they  resign? 

A.  They  are  resigning  because  they  will  not  take  any  part  in 
what  is  going  on  now  in  Ireland. 

Q.     After  they  resigned,  did  anything  happen  to  them? 

A.     Not  by  our  own  people. 

Q.  But  did  any  of  them  lose  their  lives?  Have  you  any  per- 
sonal knowledge  of  such  cases? 

A.  The  information  I  have  of  such  cases  I  got  from  the  news- 

Q.  But  you  have  read  in  the  newspapers  that  many  of  them  have 
been  shot  after  they  have  resigned? 

A.     Yes,  I  have.    After  they  had  resigned. 

Q.  But  it  seems  to  me  that  a  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  man  who 
had  resigned  would  have  rather  endeared  himself  to  the  people  of 
the  Irish  Republic. 

A.  Yes,  they  would.  And  furthermore,  I  can  tell  you  that  the 
Irish  Government  would  see  that  they  do  not  suffer  from  their  resig- 

Q.     But  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  notice  it? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  it.  While  my  brother  was  in  Brixton  Prison,  I 
read  in  the  paper  that  about  four  hundred  R.  I.  C.'s  sent  in  a  notice 
to  the  Government  warning  the  Government  that  if  he  were  released, 
they  would  resign  in  a  body.  The  very  instant  that  I  saw  that.  I 
knew  for  one  that  it  was  a  lie.  There  are  not  four  hundred  of  the 
old  R.  I.  C.  men  left,  nor  four  dozen,  who  would  say  such  a  thing. 
The  four  hundred,  if  there  were  four  hundred,  I  knew  were  the 
English  recruits  to  the  R.  I.  C,  commonly  known  as  Black-and- 
Tans.  It  sounded  very  big  in  the  English  papers  that  four  hundred 
R.  I.  C.'s  threatened  to  resign  if  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  was  re- 
leased, because  their  lives  would  not  be  safe  if  he  lived.  That,  of 
course,  was  another  piece  of  lying  propaganda.  I  said  that  on  the 
instant  I  saw  it,  because  I  did  not  believe  they  would  do  it.  The 
very  next  day  the  chief  of  the  R.  I.  C.  sent  a  letter  to  the  paper 
denying  that  the  R.  I.  C.  had  taken  any  such  action,  and  very  vigor- 
ously protesting  that  such  a  statement  should  be  made.  There  are 
not  four  hundred  or  four  dozen  of  the  old  R.  I.  C.  who  are  left,  but 
there  are  any  number  of  Black-and-Tans  who  might  say  that  they 
protested  against  his  release.1 

1  This  fictitious  protest  against  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney's  release  con- 
tained the  imputation  that  he  was  one  of  the  chief  instigators  of  the 
shooting  of  policemen,  and  hence  the  lives  of  policemen  would  not  be 
safe  if  he  were  released. 


Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  say  that  the  taking  of  the  lives 
of  these  policemen,  of  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  Blaek-and-Tans,  was  done 
in  punishment  for  indiscriminate  murders.  But  has  the  murder  of 
resigned  officers  caused  reprisals? 

The  Witness:    Would  you  mind  repeating  the  question? 

Q.  You  said  that  some  policemen  when  they  resigned  from  the 
R.  I.  C.  had  been  shot  by  the  Black-and-Tans.  Do  you  claim  that 
any  such  killings  have  been  given  as  an  excuse  for  the  shooting  up 
of  communities  by  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     By  the  Black-and-Tans? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.     I  could  not  say  about  that. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  I  say  that  I  told  the  Chairman  some  time 
ago  that  an  effort  would  be  made  to  locate  a  number  of  members 
of  the  R.  I.  C.  that  have  resigned  and  would  be  available  as  wit- 
nesses. We  will  give  their  names  to  the  secretary  this  evening. 
And  they  can  give  the  whole  story  of  the  R.  I.  C.1 

Chairman  Howe:  We  will  now  adjourn.  The  meeting  will  be 
held  here  in  this  room  at  nine-thirty  tomorrow  morning. 

Adjournment  5:53  P.  M. 

1  See    testimony    of     Ex-Policemen     Crowley,     Tangney,     Caddan,    and 


Before  the 

Session  Two 

Jane  Addams 
James  H.  Maurer 
Oliver  P.  Newman 
George  W.  Norris 
Norman  Thomas 
David  I.  Walsh 


Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 


Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washington, 
D.  C,  Thursday,  December  9,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  9:50  A.  M. 
Chairman  Howe:    Mrs.  MacSwiney  will  take  the  stand. 











Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh    (of  counsel)  :    Will  you  please  state  youi 

Mrs.  MacSwiney  ? 

Muriel  MacSwiney. 

And  where  do  you  reside? 

In  Cork. 

\on  are  the  widow  of  Terence  MacSwiney? 

Yes,  I  am. 

And  he  died  on  what  day? 

■I  am  not  sure  of  the  exact  date. 

I  am  not  sure, 
And  where? 

In  Brixton  prison,  in  London. 

And  at  the  time  of  your  husband's  arrest,  what  was  your  hus- 
band's business  or  profession? 

A.     He  was  the  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city  of  Cork. 



Q.     And  did  he  have  any  other  official  connection? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  an  officer  in  the  Irish  Republican  Army. 

Q.  Now,  would  you  be  good  enough  to  begin,  I  might  suggest, 
to  tell  the  Commission  in  your  own  thoughts  about  his  connection 
with  the  Republican  movement  in  Ireland?  And  just  state  to  the 
Commission  your  observations  of  the  movement  down  to  your  mar- 
riage with  your  husband  and  down  to  the  time  of  his  death.  I  will 
let  you  start  with  your  own  story.     You  were  born  where? 

A.     I  was  born  in  Cork. 

And  what  was  the  name  of  your  parents? 

My  father's  name  was  Nicholas  Murphy. 

Of  Cork? 

Yes,  of  Cork.     And  Mary  Purcell  was  my  mother's  name. 

And  your  father  is  dead? 

Yes,  he  died  when  I  was  sixteen. 

And  you  have  brothers  and  sisters? 

Yes,  I  have. 

How  many? 

Three  sisters  and  two  brothers. 

What  was  the  date  of  your  marriage  with  Mr.  MacSwiney? 

June  9,  1917. 


Q.  You  can  go  ahead  now  and  state  your  own  position  in  this 
matter.  When,  if  at  any  time,  did  you  become  interested  in  the 
cause  of  Irish  independence,  and  what  actuated  you? 

A.  Well,  I  think  what  actuated  me  was  that  all  my  life,  even 
when  I  was  quite  a  baby,  I  never  could  understand  why  there  should 
be  poor  people  and  rich  people.  You  know  there  is  a  great  deal  of 
poverty  in  Ireland,  especially  in  Cork.  You  cannot  help  noticing 
the  many  poor  children  with  no  shoes  and  stockings  and  the  like. 
I  noticed  that  when  a  baby.  I  could  not  understand  why  it  should 
be.  However,  I  do  not  think  it  is  right  to  give  people  things  only  in 
charity.  There  should  be  no  need  of  that.  There's  plenty  in  Ire- 
land for  everybody  to  have  enough.  As  I  grew  older  I  saw  that 
things  could  not  be  set  right  except  by  government. 

Q.     Was  this  prior  to  your  marriage? 

A.  0  yes,  that  was  when  I  was  quite  a  child.  And  I  saw  that 
while  England  was  there  we  could  do  nothing,  because  she  destroyed 
our  business  and  kept  us  poor. 

Q.     What  was  the  business  of  your  father? 

A.     He  had  a  big  distillery. 


Q.     Briefly  stated,  he  was  a  man  in  comfortable  circumstances? 

A.     0  yes.  very. 

Q.  You  say  as  a  child  you  were  moved  by  the  poverty  that  ex- 
isted in  your  country,  and  the  reasons  for  it,  and  why  it  should 
be  so? 

A.     Yes.  I  was. 

Q.     Now.  you  may  proceed,  then. 

A.  As  I  got  older,  as  I  have  told  you,  I  saw  that  England  was 
responsible  for  all  that,  and  if  we  had  our  own  government  we 
could  do  something;  and  until  we  had  our  own  government  we  could 
do  nothing.  I  saw  that,  and  I  picked  up  other  things,  and  I  learned 
that  England  was  only  there  as  a  thief,  and  had  no  right  to  be  there 
at  all. 

Q.     Where  were  you  educated,  Mrs.  MacSwiney? 

A.  I  was  educated  at  home  until  I  was  fifteen,  and  then  I  was 
sent  to  England  for  two  years. 

Q.     To  what  school? 

A.  To  Saint  Leonard's  Convent  of  the  Holy  Child  at  Hastings. 
They  have  a  great  many  convents  in  America,  by  the  way;  and 
many  in  England. 

Q.     And  where  was  your  education  finished? 

A.     There,  at  Hastings,  in  the  south  of  England. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  personal  interest  in  the  Irish  Republican 
movement  after  your  graduation? 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  You  see,  my  parents  are  not  quite  like  myself. 
I  think  I  am  rather  characteristic  of  a  certain  section  in  Ireland. 
The  younger  people  of  Ireland  have  been  thinking  in  a  way  that 
some  of  the  older  ones  have  not.  There  some  years  ago  the  Union- 
ists did  not  wish  an  Irish  Republic.  They  wished  to  belong  to  Eng- 
land. They  were  well  off  and  quite  comfortable  and  thought  only 
of  themselves.  That  is  dying  out  now.  The  younger  members  of 
such  families  are  Republican.  On  account  of  that,  I  did  not  get  the 
opportunity  to  meet  Republicans  when  I  was  a  child.  That  was 
why  I  was  sent  to  school  to  England.  I  am  only  characteristic  of  a 
great  many  who  are  brought  up  shut  up  at  home.  And  still  the 
Irish  spirit  comes  out  of  them  in  spite  of  everything.  So  until  I 
was  about  twenty-two  I  did  not  get  the  opportunity  to  do  very  much. 

Q.     What  is  your  age  now? 

A.     I  am  twenty-eight. 

Q.     When  did  you  first  meet  Terence  MacSwiney? 

A.     I  met  him  in  1915,  about  Christmas. 

Q.  Were  you  interested  in  the  Republican  movement  before 


A.     0  yes,  I  was,  some  time  before  then. 

Q.  You  might  state  what  your  activities  have  been  prior  to  that 

A.  My  thought  has  long  been  that  we  should  have  an  Irish  Re- 
public, and  that  England  should  go  from  Ireland. 

Q.     Did  you  belong  to  any  organization  up  to  that  time? 

A.     I  did  not,  up  to  that  time.     I  had  spoken  to  people,  of  course. 

Q.  But  you  had  not  been  connected  with  any  Republican  organ- 

A.  No,  on  account  of  my  family.  I  was  living  at  home,  of 


Q.  I  wish  you  would  proceed  and  tell  about  your  husband,  and 
your  marriage,  and  tell  the  whole  story  down  to  the  present  time. 
I  am  sure  it  would  interest  the  Commission  to  hear  your  story  from 
the  very  first. 

A.  Well,  I  met  my  husband  at  the  house  of  mutual  friends,  about 
Christmas,  1915.  And,  well,  I  did  not  really  get  to  know  him  very 
intimately  at  that  time.  Some  time  after  that  I  met  him  a  few 

Q.     You  might  tell  what  his  status  was  at  that  time. 

A.  He  was  a  commandant  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army  at  that 
time.    , 

Q.     He  was  a  commandant? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  south  of  Ireland.  Of  course,  my  husband  has 
been  in  all  the  movements  ever  since  he  was  a  boy;  because  of 
course,  as  his  sister  has  told  you,  theirs  is  a  very  old  family  around 
Cork.  She  can  tell  you  about  that  better  than  I  can,  because  she 
knew  him  before  I  did.  I  met  him,  as  I  said,  about  Christmas. 
And  he  was  arrested  about  a  month  after  Christmas. 

Q.     Upon  what  charge,  if  any? 

A.  The  charge  of  making  a  speech.  But  he  was  kept  without 
trial  for  a  whole  month.  He  was  never  tried  at  all.  He  had  to  be 
released  in  the  end. 

Q.     Where  was  he  confined? 

A.     In  Cork  prison.     And  he  was  quite  ill  then. 

Q.     What  was  the  date? 

A.     My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  the  date. 

Q.     In  1916? 

A.     Yes,  1916. 


Q.     \^  as  it  alter  the  insurrection  or  before? 

A.  0  before.  Well,  when  we  got  the  news  in  Cork  of  the  insur- 
rection in  1916,  we  heard  there  was  something  up  in  Dublin.  And 
1  went  into  town  to  try  to  find  out  what  had  happened.  I  heard  that 
my  husband  was  up  at  the  Volunteer  Hall,  the  headquarters  of  the 
Republican  army  in  Cork.  There  was  danger  in  Cork  then.  He 
had  been  sleeping  there  because  they  thought  it  was  safer  for  him. 
It  was  not  well  for  him  to  be  alone.  He  might  be  shot  or  arrested. 
He  was  up  at  the  hall  all  the  week.  I  had  a  chance  to  see  him  and 
get  the  news  of  what  was  happening  in  Dublin  and  in  Cork.  My 
husband  was  arrested  after  that. 

Q.     What  date  was  that? 

A.     I   cannot  give  the  date  exactlv.      It   was   after   Easter  Week. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  your  marriage? 

A.     The  ninth   of  June.   1917. 

Q.     And  I  believe  you  have  one  child? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  the  name  of  your  child? 

A.     Maura. 

Q.     And  when  was  Maura  born? 

A.     She  was  born  on  the  twenty-third  of  June,  1918. 

Q.     Had  your  husband  been  arrested  before  you  were   married? 

A.     Yes.  I  told  you  he  had.     Easter  Week,  1916. 

Q.     And  he  was  arrested  after  that, — after  your  marriage? 

A.  0  yes,  like  all  men  in  Ireland,  whether  they  had  fought  or 
not.     They  were  all  arrested,  after  Easter  Week. 

Q.      And  when  was  he  first  arrested? 

A.      Early  in  1916.  and  then  after  Easter. 

Q.     And  how  long  was  he  confined? 

A.     He  was  confined  until  after  Christma>. 

Q.     And  where  was  he  sent? 

A.  First  of  all.  he  was  sent  to  Dublin  to  Richmond  barracks, 
and  he  was  then  deported  to  Wakefield  prison  in  England. 

Q.     And  he  got  out  under  the  general  amnesty? 

A.     Yes,  with  the  other  prisoners  at  Christmas. 

Q.  During  all  that  time  there  was  no  formal  charge  lodged 
against  him? 

A.     0  no,  none  of  those  were  charged. 

Q.     They  just  kept  him  in   jail  until  Christmas  time? 

A.     They  did,  for  nearly  a  year. 

Q.     From  that  time  what  was  the  course  of  your  husband? 



A.  I  visited  him  in  Richmond  barracks,  I  should  say.  And  then 
I  was  sent  over  by  our  own  people  to  England  to  do  something  for 
the  men  who  were  in  the  prisons  there.  Our  men  were  in  a  terrible 
condition  at  that  time.  In  the  beginning  none  of  their  folks  were 
allowed  to  see  them.  When  I  went  over  first,  I  went  to  Wandsworth 
prison  in  London,  and  then  I  went  to  Wakefield,  where  my  husband 
was,  because  I  was  supposed' to  look  after  the  Cork  men,  and  my 
husband  and  they  were  in  Wakefield. 

Q.     How  many  were  confined? 

A.  0  hundreds,  if  not  thousands.  The  whole  of  Ireland  was  in 
jail  at  that  time,  and  people  who  had  never  handled  arms  also. 
When  I  went  there  our  men  were  in  a  terrible  condition.  They  were 
literally  starving.  I  know  one  friend  of  mine, — he  had  never  han- 
dled arms.  He  was  from  Bandon  in  County  Cork.  I  was  god- 
mother to  one  of  his  children.  He  was  sent  to  Wakefield  before  my 
husband  was.  He  was  not  allowed  anything,  not  a  book,  not  even  a 
prayerbook.  All  of  his  wife's  letters  were  stopped,  and  he  thought 
that  something  had  happened  to  her,  because  she  was  not  very 
strong  at  that  time.  His  wife  was  one  of  the  first  to  get  into  the 
jails  to  see  their  people.  Well,  I  went  over  just  to  help  those  men. 
It  was  June  when  I  went  over.  They  were  in  a  frightful  state.  They 
had  literally  no  food  except  what  we  brought  them.  Of  course  there 
were  many  Dublin  men  there,  too,  but  I  was  looking  after  the  Cork 

Q.     After  they  were  released  in  1916,  tell  what  happened. 

A.     I  was  ill  after  they  were  released  in  1916. 

Q.     Were  you  in  Cork? 


A.  Yes,  I  was  in  Cork,  and  I  was  in  Dublin  for  a  month,  and 
then  I  went  over  to  England  for  a  visit.  And  while  I  was  there  I 
got  the  news  that  my  husband  had  been  arrested  again.  He  had 
been  out  a  very  short  time,  about  a  month,  I  think. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  that? 

A.     In  February,  1917. 

Q.     On  what  charge? 

A.  There  was  no  charge  whatever.  He  was  deported  to  England 
with  several   others  from  different  parts  of  the  country.     I  heard 


just  that  they  were  arrested  and  deported  to  England.  I  did  not 
know  where  they  were,  of  course.  At  that  time  we  were  not  en- 
gaged, but  only  friends;  but  I  think  I  felt  how  things  were,  and 
that  he  felt  the  same  as  myself.  I  was  in  London  then,  and  went  to 
Cambridge  to  stay  there  with  an  Irish  friend.  She  was  at  the  univer- 
sity there  then.  At  that  time  no  communication  was  allowed  with 
our  men  in  jail  whatever.  I  found  out  from  Mr.  Laurence  Ginnell, 
the  Irish  M.  P.,  and  he  told  me  that  he  had  seen  some  of  the  men 
and  he  thought  that  my  husband  was  in  Shrewsbury.  I  met  a  police- 
man at  the  station  and  asked  him  where  the  men  were,  and  he  said 
that  the  military  had  charge  of  them,  and  told  me  to  ask  a  soldier. 
I  asked  a  soldier  and  he  said  they  had  gone,  and  that  nobody  would 
ever  know  where  they  had  gone. 


I  felt  very  badly.  I  did  not  know  what  to  do.  And  that  night  I 
heard  from  him.  They  had  been  sent  up  to  Bromyard  in  Hereford- 
shire. And  I  went  up  to  see  him.  And  we  really  became  engaged 
that  night. 

Q.     He  was  in  jail  then? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  the  same  as  in  jail.  He  was  confined  to  a  certain 
area,  and  could  not  go  out  of  it. 

Q.     He  was  interned? 

A.     He  was  interned,  yes. 

Q.     What  date  was  that? 

A.     That  would  be, — 0  we  were  engaged  on  the  third  of  March. 

Q.     And  how  long  was  he  interned  after  that  time? 

A.     He  was  there  until  after  we  were  married. 

Q.     And  when  were  you  married? 

A.     About  a  fortnight  in  June. 

Q.     And  how  long  did  you  remain  in  England? 

A.  We  had  to  remain  in  England  for  a  time  after  that.  But 
although  we  were  in  England,  we  were  married  by  an  Irish  priest, 
Father  Augustine.  You  have  had  him  over  here.  And  we  were 
married  in  our  own  language,  the  Irish  language. 

Q.     And  that  was  on  what  date? 

A.     The  ninth  of  June,  1917. 

Q.     And  you  went  back  to  Ireland  when? 


A.  About  a  fortnight  after  that.  The  men  were  released,  those 
who  were  interned,  and  we  all  went  back  to  Ireland  at  that  time. 


I  went  back  to  Ireland  with  him,  and  then  we  went  off  in  the  country 
together.  And  that  time  was  about  the  only  one  that  we  had  to- 

Q.      How  long  did  you  remain  there? 

A.     For  some  time. 

Q.     Where  were  you? 

A.  At  Ballingeary,  in  County  Cork,  a  very,  very  beautiful  place 
out  in  the  country  where  they  still  do  things  in  the  old  Irish  way. 
They  do  not  know  English  there  yet,  I  am  glad  to  say,  and  they  are 
very  much  better  off  for  it. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  from  Ballingeary? 

A.     We  returned  to  Cork. 

Q.     How  long,  then,  did  you  remain  at  Cork? 

A.  About  three  months.  And  then  my  husband  had  to  go  up  to 
Dublin  to  look  after  his  affairs,  but  he  did  not  stay  there. 

Q.     He  came  back  to  Cork  then? 

A.  Yes,  he  came  back  to  Cork  and  tried  to  settle  down,  and  it 
was  while  we  were  there,  in  the  house  that  we  had  just  got.  that  he 
was  arrested. 

Q.     He  was  arrested? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  arrested  in  November  at  two-thirty  o'clock  in  the 
morning  by  seven  policemen. 

Q.     Were  you  there  then? 

A.     Yes,  I  was. 

Q.     How  was  he  arrested? 

A.  They  came  to  the  house  for  him  and  took  him,  and  although 
it  was  but  so  very  early  in  the  morning,  they  were  afraid  to  take  him 
through  the  streets  of  the  city  where  someone  might  see  them.  And 
although  my  husband  had  lived  in  Cork  all  his  life  and  knew  the 
city  well,  they  went  in  such  a  round-about  way  that  he  said  he  did 
not  know  some  of  the  streets  through  which  they  took  him. 

Q.     What  was  the  charge  on  which  they  arrested  him? 

A.     Wearing  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army. 


Q.  Your  husband  was  taken  to  prison  and  went  on  a  hunger 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  your  husband  go  without  food? 

A.  He  went  without  food  for  three  days. 

Q.  That  was  at  what  time? 

A.  That  was  just  before  Christmas. 


Q.     1917? 

A.     Yes.  I'M  7.     He  was  at  home  for  Christmas. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  that  the  hunger  strike  that  the  Irish 
prisoners  all  demanded  that  a  hearing  he  given  them  and  eharges 
produced  or  that  they  he  freed? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.      F.  P.  Walsh:    That  was  not  the  Mountjoy  hunger  strike? 

A.     0  no.     This  was  in  Cork. 

Q.     There  was  a  large  hunger  strike   later  in   Mountjoy? 

A.     0  yes.  there  was. 

Q.     About  how  many  went  on  this  strike? 

A.     About  twenty,  I  think. 

Q.      And  they  all  went  without  food  for  several  days? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  After  six  weeks'"  imprisonment  they  went  on 
hunger  strike  to  protest  against  not  being  treated  as  prisoners  of 

Q.     And  they  were  released  by  the  Christmas  amnesty? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.      And  how  long  after  this  was  he  again  arrested? 


A.  I  want  to  say  that  this  was  the  only  Christmas  I  ever  had  my 
husband  for.  It  was  the  only  Christmas  that  we  were  together.  He 
was  arrested  again  in  the  beginning  of  March. 

Q.     1917? 

A.  1918.  I  went  up  to  Dublin  to  rest,  and  he  went  up  with  me 
to  keep  me  company.  We  arrived  in  Dublin  about  two,  and  three 
of  these  G  Division  men  came  and  arrested  him  about  six.  I  never 
speak  to  these  people  at  all,  because  I  think  it  is  better  not  to.  But 
this  time  I  had  to.  I  asked  them  where  they  were  taking  my  hus- 
band, and  they  would  not  tell  me.  They  twisted  and  twisted,  and 
said,  "0  it's  uncertain."  I  knew  very  well  that  they  knew,  because 
they  were  men  high  up.  I  kept  after  them,  and  two  of  the  men  said 
they  would  come  back  the  next  morning  and  tell  me  where  my  hus- 
band was  taken  to. 

Q.     Where  was  he  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  the  Bridewell  in  Dublin.  It  was  a  terrible 

Q.     Where  is  the  Bridewell  located? 

A.  There  are  several  Bridewells  in  Dublin.  This  Bridewell  was 
near  the  Four  Courts  in  Dublin. 


Q.     Describe  this  place. 

A.  The  men  were  not  treated  like  human  beings  there.  They 
had  no  mattresses,  no  bedclothing,  no  anything.  And  what  struck 
me  as  most  terrible  was  that  they  had  sort  of  round  holes  in  the 
doors,  and  the  prisoners  could  just  stick  their  heads  through.  And 
some  of  them  were  mere  boys  there  in  that  frightful  place. 

Q.     How  long  was  your  husband  there? 

A.  He  was  taken  away  the  next  morning  to  Belfast.  And  those 
men  came  back  the  next  morning  and  would  give  me  no  information 
whatever.  And  there  I  was,  not  knowing  where  to  look  nor  what  to 
do.  And  then  I  learned  he  was  at  Belfast.  He  was  in  jail  there  for 
about  three  weeks,  and  then  he  was  removed  to  Dundalk. 

Q.     How  long  was  he  in  Dundalk? 

A.     He  was  there  until  the  beginning  of  September. 

Q.     From  what  date? 

A.     From  about  the  middle  of  March. 


Q.     What  time  was  Maura  born? 

A.  Well,  he  was  up  in  Dundalk.  Of  course,  T  was  in  Belfast 
first,  and  then  I  was  in  Dundalk  until  I  had  to  go  home, — until  the 
baby  was  about  to  be  born.  My  husband  wished  that  she  should  be 
born  in  Cork,  his  native  city.  He  said  that  she  might  have  to  work 
for  Ireland,  and  he  wanted  her  to  be  born  there.  I  went  home  the 
end  of  May,  and  she  was  born  the  twenty-first  of  June. 

Q.     When  did  your  husband  first  see  her? 

A.  He  was  in  Dundalk  when  she  was  born,  but  he  was  moved  to 
Belfast  soon  afterwards,  and  we  had  to  take  her  up  there  to  see  her 
father,  because,  although  his  sentence  would  be  completed  soon,  they 
had  at  that  time  taken  to  arresting  people  on  the  door  of  the  jail 
just  as  they  were  walking  out  on  finishing  their  sentence,  and  then 
deporting  them  to  England  without  any  charge  at  all. 

Q.  What  was  your  husband's  sentence  on  the  original  charge 
against  him? 

A.  That  was  the  sentence  against  him  just  after  we  were  married. 
He  got  six  months  for  wearing  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Republican 

Q.     Did  your  husband  have  any  official  position  in  it  then? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  a  commandant  in  the  Irish  Army  at  that  time. 

Q.     You  say  you  went  up  to  be  there  at  the  time  of  his  release? 

A.  Yes,  I  went  up  there,  for  we  knew  that  probably  he  would 
be  deported  to  England  like  the  others,  and  that  was  the  reason  that 


I  took  the  baby  up;  because  if  he  was  deported  to  England  I  might 
not  be  allowed  to  see  him  at  all,  and  he  might  never  see  his  little 
daughter.  I  was  staying  a  good  distance  from  the  prison,  because  I 
thought  it  would  be  better  to  be  where  I  was  when  I  stayed  in  Bel- 
fast before,  because  the  lady  there  liked  children. 

Q.     How  old  was  the  baby? 

A.  She  was  six  weeks  old.  We  left  Cork  at  three,  and  we  did 
not  get  to  Belfast  until  half  past  ten  at  night.  My  sister-in-law  went 
with  me, — not  this  one,  but  the  other  sister-in-law.  Of  course  a 
long  trip  like  that  was  not  very  good  for  the  baby,  as  your  wife  can 
tell  you. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  there? 

A.  About  a  fortnight.  She  used  to  be  taken  into  the  prison 
every  day.  I  don't  suppose  anyone  so  young  had  ever  been  taken 
into  that  prison  before.  She  was  so  young.  Her  father,  of  course, 
was  delighted  to  see  her.  If  he  had  been  allowed  to  act  according 
to  his  interests  and  desires,  he  would  have  stayed  at  home  with  the 
baby  and  me.  He  liked  his  home.  That  is,  he  would  have  liked  to 
do  that  if  Ireland  had  been  free. 

Q.     When  did  he  return  home? 


A.  0,  you  see  he  was  arrested  just  as  he  was  walking  out  of  the 
jail,  as  we  expected. 

Q.     Were  you  there? 

A.  He  did  not  wish  me  to  be  present,  because  the  police  might 
pull  me  back  and  hurt  me,  as  they  often  do  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go? 

A.     I  went  back  to  Cork,  and  I  was  there  when  he  was  deported. 

Q.     What  was  that  date? 

A.  About  the  beginning  of  September.  About  the  fourth  of 
September,  I  think. 

Q.     Where  was  he  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  Lincoln.  President  de  Valera  was  there  at 
that  time.     He  was  sent  there  earlier  than  my  husband. 

Q.     Did  you  visit  him  there? 

A.  I  was  not  allowed  to  see  him.  I  had  practically  no  com- 
munication with  him  at  that  time  because  the  letters  I  sent  him  had 
to  go  through  the  prison  authorities  and  through  the  English  au- 
thorities at  London  also. 

Q.     How  long  did  that  endure? 

A.     From  September  to  the  beginning  of  March. 


Q.     When  did  you  again  see  your  husband? 

A.     In  March. 

Q.     He  returned  to  Cork? 

A.  Yes,  to  Cork.  He  was  released  before  the  others  a  little  bit 
on  parole,  because  I  had  the  influenza.  He  got  a  week  on  parole, 
and  by  the  time  that  was  up  he  was  released.  He  expected  that  thev 
intended  to  release  him  or  they  would  not  have  let  him  be  with  me 
then.     Because,  you  see,  when  the  baby  was  born  he  was  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Did  he  attempt  to  be  paroled  at  the  time  of  the  birth  of  the 

A.     He  would  have  liked  to,  of  course. 

Q.     Was  any  effort  made  that  you  know  of? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of.     Of  course  I  was  ill  at  the  time. 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  his  release  from  prison  that  you 
spoke  of? 

A.     In  March,  1919. 

Q.  Who  was  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  at  that  time?  Was  it  before 
the  election  of  Mr.  MacCurtain? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     It  was  Mr.  Butterfield  who  was  Lord  Mayor  then. 

Q.  Was  he  arrested  from  that  time  down  to  the  time  he  was 
elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     No,  he  was  not. 


Q.  I  wish  you  would  detail  what  took  place  from  that  time  to 
the  time  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork.  The  elections  inter- 
vened ? 

A.     Yes,  they  did,  while  my  husband  was  still  in  Lincoln  Prison. 

Q.     Was  he  elected? 

A.     Yes,  he  was. 

Q.     He  was  a  candidate  from  where? 

A.     He  was  a  candidate  from  Mid  Cork. 

Q.     Is  that  a  part  of  the  county  of  Cork? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  That  was  the  place  where  my  husband's  family 
was  from.  That  was  the  place  where  we  spent  our  honeymoon — 
because  what  time  we  spent  in  England  when  we  were  married  we 
did  not  count  as  a  honeymoon.  It  was  when  we  got  back  to  Ballin- 
geary,  when  he  came  back  that  time  when  he  was  released.  The 
little  girl  was  about  nine  months  old.  We  were  afraid  she  would 
begin  to  speak  then,  and  her  father  wanted  her  to  learn  Irish.  I 
did  not  know  very  much  Irish  at  that  time.     My  husband  knew  it 


very,  very  well,  hut  I  did  not  know  much.  I  had  not  made  much 
headway  with  it.  So  I  went  down  to  that  place  I  spoke  of,  which 
is  the  Irish-speaking  district. 

Q.     For  how  long? 

A.     For  seven  months.  1  think  it  was. 

Of  course,  in  the  country  almost  everyhody  knows  Irish.  Every- 
hody  knew  Irish  hefore  the  English  came  into  the  country,  but  in 
the  towns  the  Irish  language  had  died  out  a  hit,  and  only  the  old 
folks  knew  it.  We  had  this  ring  (indicating  small  gold  circle  on 
dress).  You  can  get  this  ring  when  you  sign  a  paper  and  say  that 
you  will  not  speak  any  English  to  anybody  else  who  has  this  ring. 
And  after  I  was  back  in  Ballingeary  awhile  I  got  this  ring.  And 
after  I  got  it,  I  never  spoke  a  word  of  English  to  my  husband  or 
to  the  baby. 

Q.     The  baby  is  how  old? 

A.     About  two  and  one-half  years,  sir. 

Q.     And  she  speaks  Irish? 

A.  Yes,  Irish.  In  this  district  where  I  was,  there  are  a  lot  of 
tourists,  and  they  speak  English,  of  course.  But  for  the  last  three 
months  I  was  there  I  never  spoke  a  word  of  English  to  anybody. 
Of  course,  my  husband  was  there  then,  and  he  never  spoke  a  word 
of  English  either.  We  gave  one  of  these  rings  to  the  baby  when 
she  was  born,  so  that  she  would  always  speak  her  own  language. 
We  had  to  take  it  away  from  her  because  she  put  it  in  her  mouth, 
but  I  think  it  is  time  to  give  it  to  her  again. 

Q.     When  did  you  return  to  Cork? 

A.  November,  1919.  I  should  like  to  say  that  while  we  were 
in  Ballingeary  the  English  soldiers  and  police  twice  raided  the 
house  we  were  living  in  at  4  o'clock  in  the  morning.  Luckily  my 
husband  was  not  there  either  time.  He  used  to  go  back  and  forth 
from  Cork. 

Q.     Did  you  vote  at  the  election? 

A.     No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  They  held  a  general  election,  however,  at  which  all  the  men 
and  women  of  Cork  were  entitled   to   vote? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  they  did  vote? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.     Where  were   you   at  the  time? 

A.     I  was  in  Cork,  but  I  was  ill. 

Q.     What  is  the  age  of  the  franchise  for  women? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  that  better 
than  I  can.  » 


Q.     It  is  thirty,  I  understand. 

A.     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.     You  are  still  an  infant,  so  far  as  the  franchise  is  concerned? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  In  this  general  election  there  was  a  full  and  free  vote  for 
members  of  the  Council? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  number  of  candidates  voted  on  at  that 

A.     About  thirty,  I  think. 

Miss  Mary  MacSwiney:  There  were  more  than  that,  about 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney  says  sixty-six. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  I  don't  know  much  about  it. 

Q.     Following  that  election  who  was  elected  mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Mayor  MacCurtain. 

Q.     And  he  was  a  friend  of  your  husband? 

A.  Yes,  indeed;  a  lifelong  friend.  Mrs.  MacCurtain  used  to 
tell  me  that  if  my  husband  was  a  girl  she  would  be  jealous  of  him, 
because  they  were  together  for  so  long  a  time,  and  planned  and 
worked  for  Ireland  together. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Cork  at  the  time  of  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Were  you  there  at  the  inquest? 

A.     I  was  in  Cork,  but'  I  was  very  ill  at  the  time. 

Q.     So  you  had  better  leave  that  to  your  sister-in-law? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Just  describe  the  events  leading  up  to  the  death  of  your 
husband.  After  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  your  hus- 
band was  elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes,  he  was. 

Q.     And  you  were  not  present  when  he  was  invested  with  office? 

A.     No. 

Q.     How  long  was  he  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  before  his  arrest? 

A.     About  six  months. 


Q.     And  were  you  in  Cork  all  that  time? 

A.  We  came  back  to  Cork  before  the  election,  and  we  got 
another  house.  We  gave  up  the  other  house.  But  my  husband 
could  not  stay  there  nights. 


Q.     Why? 

A.  Because  he  would  be  arrested.  The  English  police  and  sol- 
diers would  arrest  him.  For  years  he  has  had  to  do  that.  He  really 
could  not  be  with  me  at  all.  He  could  not  be  where  they  might  find 
him  nights.  I  stayed  with  friends,  cousins  of  my  husband.  The 
house  was  a  little  bit  out  of  the  way,  a  side  house,  and  he  could 
come  there  occasionally,  but  always  at  a  very  great  risk  for  fear 
of  being  arrested.  The  baby  was  nearly  two  years  old  then,  but 
she  did  not  see  much  of  her  father.  And  she  was  awfully  fond 
of  him.  He  had  a  telephone  in  his  office  when  he  was  made  Lord 
Mayor,  in  his  office  at  the  City  Hall.  And  I  used  to  speak  to  him 
on  the  telephone.  Sometimes  I  was  speaking  to  other  people,  but 
whoever  I  was  speaking  to  on  the  telephone,  the  baby  would  shout 
and  snatch  the  receiver  out  of  my  hand  and  think  it  was  her  father, 
and  she  would  whisper,  just  whisper  to  him.  She  loved  him  and 
he  loved  her.  and  wanted  to  be  with  her  more  than  anything  else. 


Q.     Your  husband  was  a  literary  man,  I  believe? 

A.  Yes,  he  was.  He  wrote  a  lot.  He  wrote  some  very  excellent 
poems  and  plays. 

Q.  You  might  describe  him,  his  inclinations,  age,  appearance, 
and  so  forth. 

A.  I  think  the  chief  characteristic  of  my  husband — apart  from 
his  love  of  Ireland,  which  was  above  everything  else — was  his  love 
of  people,  his  charity.  He  never  said  a  word  against  anybody.  I 
never  heard  him  say  a  word  against  his  worst  enemies.  I  will  go 
into  that  a  little  later  on  when  describing  him  at  Brixton.  I  remem- 
ber that  when  he  was  in  Wakefield,  a  few  of  them  were  put  into 
solitary  confinement,  and  they  thought  that  surely  they  would  be 
shot,  because  some  others  had  been  shot  who  were  in  solitary  con- 
finement. And  even  then,  when  he  expected  death,  he  would  not 
say  anything  harsh  against  the  English. 

Q.     How  tall  was  he? 

A.     Fairly  tall. 

Q.     Dark  complexion? 

A.  Yes,  very  dark,  with  black  hair — a  lot  of  it,  with  one  big 
lock  that  was  always  getting  over  his  face.  We  used  to  tease  him 
about  that  lock  of  hair.     He  was  very  good  looking,  I  think. 

Q.     Of  course  you  were  familiar  with  what  he  wrote? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  I  was. 


Q.     What  was  it,  in  a  general  way?     Did  he  write  verse? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  he  was  more  of  a  poet  than  anything  else,  I  think. 

Q.     And  did  that  go  back  to  his  young  manhood? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  When  he  was  about  thirteen  or  fourteen  he  wrote 
some  beautiful  things,  some  of  his  most  beautiful  things.  My  hus- 
band wrote  plays,  too. 

Q.     What  was  his  education? 

A.  He  was  educated  at  the  North  Monastery  in  Cork,  the  Chris- 
tian Brothers  in  Cork.  But  of  course  he  educated  himself,  like  most 
Irish  people  do.  Of  course  you  will  hear  about  that  from  my 
sister-in-law.  My  husband's  father  died  when  he  was  fifteen,  and 
he  had  to  be  taken  away  from  school  and  go  into  business.  And 
so  he  studied  at  nights,  although  he  was  working  hard  from  eight- 
thirty  in  the  morning  until  six. 

Q.     What  was  his  business? 

A.  He  was  an  accountant  in  Cork.  At  first  he  used  to  stay  up 
most  of  the  night  and  study,  but  he  found  that  was  very  bad  for 
him  and  he  got  headaches  and  the  like.  And  then  he  used  to  come 
home  and  have  tea  and  go  to  bed,  and  then  get  up  about  two  in  the 
morning  and  study.  And  when  I  heard  that,  I  thought  that  a  man 
like  that  could  do  anything.  At  first  he  would  have  a  fire,  but  he 
found  that  that  would  make  him  sleepy,  so  that  even  in  cold 
weather,  in  the  winter,  he  would  be  without  a  fire.  And  he  studied 
like  that  until  he  got  his  degree. 

Q.     What  degree  did  he  get? 

A.     The  degree  from  the  Royal  University  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Just  describe  his  election  as  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork. 

A.  I  think  my  sister-in-law  could  tell  you  that  better,  because 
I  was  not  well  at  the  time. 

Q.  But  just  a  general  idea — what  he  told  you  about  it.  He 
expected  to  be  elected  Lord  Mayor? 

A.  Of  course  he  thought  he  would  be.  He  knew  it  was  a  very 
dangerous  post,  after  what  had  happened  to  his  predecessor.  Mayor 
MacCurtain  was  his  greatest  friend,  I  might  say,  and  it  was  his 
duty  to  fill  his  place. 

Q.     Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  it? 

A.     Not  very  much,  because  I  was  ill  at  the  time. 


Q.  Briefly,  for  the  record,  tell  what  did  happen  to  his  prede- 

A.     He  was  at  home  one  night  in  his  own  house. 
Q.     What  was  his  name? 


A.  Thomas  MacCurtain.  He  was  a  very  quiet  sort  of  man,  and 
just  like  my  husband,  he  would  have  liked  to  be  at  home  with  his 
wife  and  children  all  the  time.  He  had  five  children,  very  sweet 
little  children.  One  was  only  a  year  old.  He  was  at  home  one 
night,  sleeping  with  his  wife  and  children,  and  his  sisters-in-law 
were  also  there.  And  there  was  a  knock  at  the  door  and  his  wife 
went  to  the  door — the  men  do  not  answer  the  door  at  night  in  Ire- 
land, for  they  might  be  shot.  The  men  broke  into  the  house  and 
pinioned  her  arms,  and  went  upstairs  and  shot  the  Lord  Mayor. 

Q.      In  the  presence  of  his  wife? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  At  what  hour? 

A.  In  the  middle  of  the  night.  At  a  time  when  there  would 
be  nobody  about. 

Q.     Who  did  that? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  it  developed  afterwards  in  the  coroner's 
inquest  who  did  the  shooting  of  the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     Yes,  it  was.     The  police. 

Q.     The  British  police? 

A.  Yes,  of  course,  the  British  police  in  Ireland,  but  at  the  orders 
of  their  government. 

Q.  The  coroner's  jury  found  that  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  killed 
by  the  Irish  police  under  orders  from  the  British  government? 

A.  Yes,  the  Irish  police,  being  the  English  forces.  I  know  you 
all  understand  that. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  killing  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was 
your  husband  elected? 

A.  Almost  immediately  afterwards,  when  the  funeral  and  all 
that  was  over. 

BESET     BY     DANGER     IN     PUBLIC     DUTIES     AND 

Q.  And  during  the  time  that  he  was  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  did 
he  live  at  home? 

A.     He  could  not. 

Q.  He  was  still  pursued  and  had  to  live  in  the  homes  of  other 

A.  Yes.  It  was  very  much  worse  after  he  was  Lord  Mayor  of 
Cork  than  it  was  ever  before. 

Q.     Did  the  corporation  meet  from  time  to  time? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  did  he  preside  at  the  meetings? 


A.     Certainly. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:   Did  they  meet  in   the  town  hall? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  city  hall.'  It  was  not  secret.  Anybody  could 
go  in. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  It  might  be  interesting  to  know  why  they 
did  not  arrest  the  Lord  Mayor  when  they  were  meeting? 

A.     I  do  not  know.     Perhaps  they  were  afraid  of  public  opinion. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  police  do  not  work  in  the  daytime? 
They  expect  to  surprise  these  men  in  their  homes  and  in  their  beds? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  I  think  that  they  are  afraid  of  doing  it  in  a  public 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  He  thought  he  would  be  arrested  or  mur- 
dered if  he  stayed  in  his  own  home? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  He  never  even  went  about  alone.  He  could  not. 
Someone  went  with  him,  not  so  much  to  guard  him  as  to  identify 
anyone  who  might  attack  him.  A  Volunteer  went  with  him  or  I 
often  went  with  him. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  that  was  the  reason  they  did  not  do 
it  in  public. 

A.     Yes.     Of  course  they  did  not  want  to  be  identified. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  furthermore  it  would  create  a  hostile 
popular  demonstration  to  shoot  him  in  public. 

A.  Oh,  yes;  certainly  it  would.  They  would  not  shoot  him 
where  they  might  be  identified.  I  could  identify  an  assailant  as 
well  as  anybody  else,  so  I  was  often  with  him. 


Q.  Just  give  us  your  own  general  description  of  his  life  after 

A.  As  I  told  you  before,  since  the  Christmas  before,  after  I  came 
back  from  the  country,  I  lived  with  distant  relations  and  friends, 
because,  as  I  told  you,  we  could  not  stay  in  a  house  of  our  own 
because  he  could  never  be  there  at  all,  and  I  could  not  very  well 
be  there  on  account  of  the  raids  and  that  sort  of  thing  going  on. 
And  so  I  saw  my  husband  sometimes,  because  I  was  in  the  house 
of  friends,  but  indeed  very,  very  seldom,  and  always  at  a  very  great 
risk.  Sometimes  he  would  come  up  after  dark,  because  it  was  a 
little  out-of-the-way  place,  a  little  outside  of  the  city.  That  was 
better.  And  then  he  would  come  after  dark  and  go  away  the  first 
thing  in  the  morning.  The  only  meal  I  could  have  him  for  was 
breakfast,  and  that  on  rare  occasions.  I  hardly  ever  saw  my  hus- 
band at  all,  to  tell  the  truth. 


Q.  And  that  continued  for  six  months  after  he  was  elected  Lord 

A.  Oh,  yes.  of  course;  ever  since  we  were  married.  But  it  was 
very,  very  much  worse  after  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you  would  like  to  tell  the  Com- 
mission after  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     I  do  not  think  so. 


Q.     When  was  your  husband  arrested  the  last  time? 

A.     He  was  arrested  on  the  twelfth  of  August. 

Q.     Where  were  you  at  that  time? 

A.  I  was  in  Cork  on  the  twelfth  of  August,  and  at  two  o'clock 
on  that  day  I  and  my  little  girl  went  down  to  the  seaside. 

Q.     That  was  the  twelfth  of  August,  1920? 

A.  Yes.  I  took  the  baby  down  to  the  seaside.  There  was  no 
one  along  there  besides  ourselves.  It  was  to  another  Irish-speaking 

Q.     About  how  far  from  Cork? 

A.  It  was  to  Youghal.  You  took  the  train  to  the  station,  and 
then  it  was  a  short  distance — on  a  bicycle  about  five  minutes — up 
to  the  town.  It  is  an  out-of-the-way  place  not  very  far  from  Cork. 
I  did  not  know  about  my  husband's  arrest  until  the  next  morning, 
when  a  friend  came  over  with  the  paper  and  told  me  that  he  was 
arrested  the  night  before,  about  seven  o'clock. 

Q.     What  did  you  do  then? 

A.  What  could  I  do?  There  was  nobody  to  mind  the  baby 
except  myself.  I  had  nobody  to  take  her  except  strangers,  and  she 
would  not  go  to  them.  My  sister-in-law  here  came  down  to  take 
care  of  the  baby.  She  came  down  the  next  day,  on  Saturday.  They 
had  tried  to  see  my  husband — both  of  my  sisters-in-law  tried  to  see 
him.  He  had  been  arrested  and  taken  to  the  military  barracks,  and 
they  were  not  allowed  to  see  him.  They  could  not  see  him  until 
Saturday  morning.     He  was  then  on  hunger  strike. 

Q.     When  did  you  go  to  Cork? 

A.  I  did  not  go  to  Cork  until  Monday.  I  went  up  to  my  sister- 
in-law's  house.  This  sister-in-law  (indicating  Miss  Mary  Mac- 
Swiney)  was  down  at  the  seashore  taking  care  of  the  baby.  That, 
was  the  day  of  the  trial. 



Q.     Did  you  see  him  before  the  trial? 

A.  My  sister-in-law  and  myself  went  up  to  the  barracks.  That 
was  where  he  was  to  be  tried.  A  big  military  lorry  came  up,  a 
very  large  one.  I  never  saw  so  many  soldiers  in  a  military  lorry 
in  my  life  before.  My  husband  was  sitting  in  the  center  of  them 
on  a  chair.  That  was  Monday  morning.  He  had  been  on  a  hunger 
strike  since  the  morning  of  his  arrest  on  Thursday. 

Q.     Had  you  been  advised  of  that? 

A.  Yes.  I  need  not  tell  you  that  he  was  very  weak.  It  seemed 
such  a  cruel  thing  to  have  so  many  armed  men  guarding  a  weak 
and  absolutely  unarmed  man. 

Q.     Was  he  all  alone  in  the  lorry? 

A.  Yes,  there  were  no  other  prisoners.  He  was  in  very  great 
pain.  He  looked  it.  I  think  that  was  one  of  the  worst  times  for 
me.  From  the  morning  that  I  heard  my  husband  was  on  a  hunger 
strike,  I  believed  that  he  would  die.  I  felt  terrible  on  that  day 
when  I  saw  him,  because  I  knew  he  was  in  pain,  and  it  was  an 
awful  thing  that  I  could  not  give  him  anything  to  eat,  for  of  course 
it  was  part  of  my  duty  that  I  should  look  after  all  his  wants. 


First  of  all,  they  took  him  up  very  high  stairs  to  a  place  where 
they  were  going  to  try  him;  and  then  they  changed  and  took  him 
down  again.  I  saw  by  his  face  that  he  was  suffering,  and  I  said  to 
one  of  the  soldiers,  could  they  not  give  him  a  chair,  because  he  had 
been  without  food  for  so  long.  That  is  one  of  the  worst  times  in 
a  hunger  strike — the  first  few  days — because  it  is  so  painful.  I 
was  speaking  to  him  in  Irish  and  they  did  not  interfere.  He  told 
me  that  he  felt  himself  that  he  would  be  sentenced,  and  that  he 
would  be  deported  to  England,  and  that  the  others  arrested  with 
him  would  get  out.  But  of  course  he  was  pleased  with  that.  He 
wanted  to  suffer  for  everybody  else's  wrongs. 

Q.     Had  he  stated  his  intentions  at  any  time  to  you? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  he  did.  He  felt  that  what  might  happen  to  him  was 
very  unimportant  to  whatever  he  could  do  to  help  Ireland. 

Q.  Anything  that  you  think  would  interest  the  Commission,  and 
that  you  would  like  to  tell,  about  what  happened  to  your  husband, 
just  tell  the  Commission. 

A.  I  think  I  would  like  to  describe  the  trial.  Of  course  I  always 
knew  what  my  husband's  motives  and  intentions  were.  He  had  no 
other  idea  in  his  head  but  to  die  for  his  country  if  need  be. 


Q.     Describe  the  trial  then. 

A.  Might  I  read  my  husband's  speech  at  this  trial?  It  is  quite 

Q.     Yes,  certainly.     Did  he  make  it  in  the  beginning  of  the  trial? 

A.  No.  We  went  upstairs  then.  There  were  several  soldiers 
standing  around  him  armed  to  the  teeth.  The  room  was  full  of 

Q.     Before  what  sort  of  a  court  was  he  tried? 

A.     A  court-martial — soldiers. 

Q.      In  uniform? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     One  of  them  was  presiding. 

Q.     How  many  judges? 

A.     Three  judges — three  soldiers. 

Q.     How  long  a  time  did  the  trial  last? 

A.     For  three  hours.     They  kept  him  there  for  such  petty  things. 

Q.      Did  he  make  a  statement? 

A.  Yes.  he  did.  I  will  read  you  this.  First  of  all,  when  they 
brought  the  charges  against  him,  they  asked  him  if  he  had  anything 
to  say.  He  said  that  if  he  was  an  ordinary  individual,  like  he  was 
before  he  was  elected,  he  would  not  say  anything  at  all.  He  would 
disregard  the  charges,  because  he  never  recognized  England's  courts, 
which  have  no  right  to  function  in  Ireland.  But  he  said  that  because 
he  was  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city,  he  represented  more  than  himself, 
and  that  was  why  he  spoke.  He  said  this  more  or  less  at  the  end 
of  the  charges. 

Q.     What  was  the  charge  against  him? 

A.  There  were  three  charges,  one  of  which  was  that  when  they 
arrested  him  when  they  raided  the  city  hall,  they  found  in  his  desk 
the  text  of  a  speech  he  had  made  when  he  was  made  Lord  Mayor. 
Of  course  this  was  made  six  months  before,  and  it  had  been  pub- 
lished in  all  the  papers,  and  so  if  there  was  anything  objectionable 
in  it,  they  could  have  mentioned  it  sooner.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  he 
had  a  right  to  make  any  speech  in  Ireland  that  he  liked. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  charges? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  charged  with  having  the  code  used  by  the  police. 

Q.     And  yet  he  was  the  chief  magistrate  of  the  city? 

A.  Yes.  What  he  said  was  that  he  was  the  chief  magistrate, 
and  he  had  the  right  to  have  anything  like  that  that  he  wanted.  He 
said  the  English  had  no  right  to  have  such  a  code.  He  said  it  was 
illegal  for  any  citizen  of  the  Irish  republic  to  have  such  a  code 
without  his  permission. 

Q.     In  the  city  of  Cork? 

A.      In  the  city  of  Cork,  yes. 


Q.     There  was  a  third  charge? 

A.  Yes,  there  was.  It  was  a  resolution  that  was  passed  by  the 
corporation  recognizing  Dail  Eireann  and  renouncing  allegiance  to 
England.  It  was  passed  by  every  public  body  all  over  Ireland,  and 
if  they  wanted  to  arrest  everybody  who  had  passed  that,  they  simply 
could  not  do  it,  because  the  jails  could  not  hold  them. 

Q.     There  was  no  other  charge? 

A.     That  was  all.     Shall  I  read  this  (indicating  paper)? 

The  Commissioners:  Yes,  please. 


The  Witness  (reading)  : 

"We  see  in  the  manner  in  which  the  late  Lord  Mayor  was  mur- 
dered an  attempt  to  terrify  us  all.  Our  first  duty  is  to  answer  that 
threat  in  the  only  fitting  manner:  to  show  ourselves  unterrified, 
cool,  and  inflexible  for  the  fulfillment  of  our  chief  purpose — the 
establishment  of  the  independence  and  the  integrity  of  our  country 
and  the  peace  and  the  happiness  of  the  Irish  Republic.  To  that 
end  I  am  here.  This  contest  on  our  side  is  not  one  of  rivalry  or 
vengeance,  but  of  endurance." 

I  would  like  to  say  something  about  that.  My  husband,  as  I  said 
before,  was  essentially  charitable — a  very  charitable  man.  It  was 
his  chief  characteristic.  He  hadn't  anything  like  vengeance  in  him. 
And  certainly  he  wished  for  nothing  more  than  that  the  English 
would  be  gone  out  of  our  country  and  that  we  could  be  good  friends 
with  them  then. 

"It  is  not  those  who  can  inflict  the  most,  but  those  who  can  suffer 
the  most,  who  will  conquer,  though  we  do  not  abrogate  our  function 
to  demand  that  murderers  and  evil-doers  be  punished  for  their 
crimes.  It  is  conceivable  that  the  army  of  occupation  could  stop 
our  functioning  for  a  time.  Then  it  becomes  simply  a  question  of 
endurance.  Those  whose  faith  is  strong  will  endure  to  the  end  in 

Well,  of  course,  my  husband  was  one  of  the  first  in  Ireland  who 
started  this  movement,  and  a  great  many  people  were  against  it 
then;  they  did  not  believe  that  we  could  be  free  from  England.  In 
Dublin  the  Irish  people  were  always  better  off  than  in  Cork,  for 
in  Cork  they  had  a  very  hard  time  in  the  beginning.  So  only  for 
my  husband's  great  faith  in  our  country  and  his  fa\th  that  they 
would  win  out,  I  don't  suppose  that  we  would  be  vfry  far  along 


"God  is  over  us,  and  in  His  divine  intervention  we  must  have 
perfect  trust. 

"Anyone  surveying  the  events  in  Ireland  in  the  past  five  years 
must  see  that  it  is  approaching  a  miracle  how  our  country  has  been 
preserved  during  a  persecution  unexampled  in  history,  culminating 
in  the  murder  of  the  head  of  our  great  city.  You  among  us  who 
have  no  vision  have  been  led  astray  by  false  prophets.  I  will  give 
a  recent  example.  Only  last  week  in  our  city  a  judge,  acting  for 
English  usurpation  in  Ireland  and  speaking  in  the  presumptuous 
manner  of  such  people,  ventured  to  lecture  us  and  uttered  this 
pagan  sentiment:  'There  is  no  beauty  in  liberty  that  comes  to  us 
in  innocent  blood.'  At  one  stroke  this  judge  would  shatter  the 
foundations  of  Christianity  by  denying  beauty  to  that  spiritual 
liberty  that  comes  to  us  dripping  in  the  blood  of  Christ  crucified. 
He,  by  His  voluntary  sacrifice  on  Calvary,  delivered  us  from  the 
domination  of  the  devil  when  the  pall  of  evil  was  closing  down 
and  darkening  the  world.  The  liberty  for  which  we  strive  today  is 
a  sacred  thing,  inseparably  entwined  with  that  spiritual  liberty  for 
which  the  Savior  of  man  died  and  which  is  the  foundation  of  all 
just  government.  Because  it  is  sacred,  and  death  for  it  is  akin  to 
the  sacrifice  on  Calvary,  following  far  off  and  yet  constant  to  that 
divine  example,  in  every  generation  our  best  and  bravest  have  died. 
Sometimes  in  our  grief  we  cry  out  the  foolish  and  unthinking  words, 
'The  sacrifice  is  too  great.' 

"It  is  not  we  who  take  innocent  blood,  but  we  offer  it,  sustained 
by  the  example  of  our  immortal  dead  and  that  divine  example  which 
inspires  us  all  for  the  redemption  of  our  country.  Facing  our 
enemy,  we  must  declare  our  attitude  simply.  We  see  in  their  regime 
a  thing  of  evil  incarnate.  With  it  there  can  be  no  parley  any  more 
than  there  can  be  truce  with  the  powers  of  Hell.  We  ask  no  mercy 
and  we  will  accept  no  compromise. 

"The  civilized  world  dare  not  look  on  indifferent  while  new 
tortures  are  being  prepared  for  our  country,  or  they  will  see  under- 
mined the  pillars  of  their  own  government  and  the  world  involved 
in  unimaginable  anarchy.  But  if  the  rulers  of  earth  fail  us,  we  still 
have  refuge  in  the  Ruler  of  Heaven,  and  though  to  some  the  judg- 
ments of  God  seem  slow,  they  never  fail,  and  when  they  fall  they 
are  overwhelming." 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now  that  was  the  speech  which  your  hus- 
band delivered  as  his  inaugural  speech  on  being;  made  Lord  Mayor 
of  Cork? 

A.     No.     I  have  that  here  also. 


Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  is  the  speech  that  he  delivered  at  his 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  This  is  the  speech,  is  it  not — if  it  is  not,  correct 
me — that  your  husband  made  at  his  inaugural  as  Lord  Mayor  of 
Cork,  and  the  document  with  which  he  was  charged  with  having 
in  his  possession  which  they  claimed  to  be  seditious? 

A.  That  was  practically  the  same.  This  was  the  speech  that  he 
made  at  his  trial. 

Q.     Have  you  another  one  there? 

A.  Yes.  This  was  the  speech  he  made  when  he  was  made  Lord 
Mayor  (indicating  another  paper). 

Q.     He  delivered  this  speech  at  the  trial? 

A.     Yes,  practically  the  same  thing. 

I  wish  to  say  something  else.  You  know  this  speech  was  one 
of  the  charges  against  him.  Of  course,  one  of  the  soldiers,  the 
president  of  the  court,  read  the  speech,  and  even  coming  from  him, 
it  made  a  very  great  impression  on  everybody  there.  And  even 
on  the  soldiers — no  matter  who  they  were — it  impressed  everybody. 


As  I  told  you,  I  think  I  felt  that  day  more  myself  than  at  any 
other  time.  Because  now  I  felt  that  my  husband  was  going  to  die. 
After  that  I  was  accustomed  to  it.  The  shock  was  more  in  the 
beginning  for  me.  Of  course  I  was  upset,  although  I  did  not  mean 
to  be.  But  when  he  spoke  himself,  he  made  me  feel  all  right.  You 
have  heard,  I  suppose,  of  the  message  that  he  sent  to  the  men  of 
Cork,  that  when  we  are  doing  work  for  Ireland,  it  should  be  not 
in  tears  but  in  joy.  And  so  I  think  that  it  is  Ireland  that  has  kept 
me  up  all  through.  That  is  the  only  thing.  There  has  been  noth- 
ing else. 

Q.     When  was  he  removed  from  Cork? 

A.  He  was  removed  that  night,  or  at  four  o'clock  the  next  morn- 
ing, I  believe. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  What  was  the  result  of  the  trial? 

A.     He  was  found  guilty  by  the  court-martial. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  sentenced  to  what? 

A.  To  two  years.  Of  course  he  told  them  then  that  it  meant 
nothing  what  his  sentence  was,  because  in  a  month's  time  he  would 
be  free,  either  alive  or  dead.  None  of  us  dreamed  that  it  would  be 
a  month.  I  certainly  did  not  think  it  would  be  more  than  a  fort- 
night at  the  outside,  and  I  did  not  think  it  would  be  that  much. 

Q.     You  say  that  after  you  heard  his  speech  you  were  reconciled? 


A.  Of  course  I  was  always  reconciled,  bul  after  that  I  fell  quite 
happy  about  his  work. 


Q.     You  say  you  went  to  London? 

A.  Yes.  but  I  was  able  to  speak  to  him  after  the  trial.  I  asked 
one  of  the  officers  going  out  where  they  were  going  to  take  him. 
Of  course  he  knew.  He  did  not  deny  that  he  knew,  but  you  know 
they  are  very  petty.  He  would  not  tell  me  anything.  My  husband 
was  taken  off  that  night  in  the  state  he  was  in  on  a  submarine.1 
They  were  afraid  to  take  him  from  Cork  during  the  day.  He  was 
taken  to  Pembroke  in  the  submarine,  and  arrived  there  about  two 
o'clock  in  .the  afternoon,  and  he  was  kept  waiting  until  about  six 
o'clock.  Of  course  his  sufferings  were  terrible  coming  over  in  a 
submarine.  In  an  ordinary  boat  it  would  have  been  very  different. 
He  arrived  in  London  about  half-past  two  in  the  morning.  They 
were  afraid  to  take  him  there  during  the  day.  It  was  put  in  the 
London  papers  at  first  that  he  did  arrive  during  the  day.  But  that 
was  a  lie.  And  then  he  was  taken  to  Brixton  prison.  My  sister- 
in-law  who  is  here  went  over  first.  My  mother  was  not  there,  so 
she  could  not  take  the  baby  for  me.  Some  people  with  whom  I 
had  been  staying  since  Christmas,  who  were  very  kind  to  me,  took 
it.  I  left  on  Saturday  morning,  and  went  straightway  to  see  my 

Q.     Where  was  he  then? 

A.      In  Brixton   prison. 


Before  I  saw  him  one  of  the  doctors  of  the  prison  spoke  to  me. 
He  was  not  the  head  doctor.  This  was  Dr.  Higson.  Of  course  he 
was  an  Englishman.  He  said  to  me,  "You  will  see  your  husband 
in  a  few  minutes,  and  will  you  not  try  to  get  him  to  take  food?'" 
He  said  he  hoped  I  would  see  the  foolishness  of  what  he  was  doing. 
The  greatest  danger  was  not  if  he  lost  his  life,  but  if  he  was  injured 
for  life.  And  he  said,  of  course,  that  any  injury  which  he  would 
receive  from  the  hunger  strike  might  harm  our  children.  I  told 
him  that  I  understood  that,  and  it  was  perfectly  true,  and  I  under- 

1  The  witness  referred  to  a  torpedo  boat   destroyer.     See   correction   by- 
Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  page  .110. 


stood  the  harm  of  going  without  food,  and  of  course  from  a  health 
point  of  view  I  quite  agreed  with  him;  but  that  I  did  not  interfere 
with  my  husband  in  anything,  especially  in  a  matter  of  conscience; 
and  each  one  was  the  best  judge  in  matters  of  conscience  of  what 
he  should  do.  He  could  not  say  very  much  to  that.  I  saw  my 
husband  then.  I  saw  a  great  change  in  him.  He  looked  very  badly 

Then  we  used  to  see  him  every  day.  And  after  a  bit,  I  think  it 
was  about  a  fortnight,  the  head  doctor  came  back.  He  had  been 
away.  And  of  course  he  often  asked  me  to  ask  my  husband  to  take 
food.  We  never  had  anything  like  scenes,  because  I  do  not  give 
people  opportunity  to  do  that,  to  have  a  fight  or  anything  like 
scenes.  We  were  always  very  civil  to  each  other.  But  he  thought 
it  was  utter  foolishness  for  a  man  to  refuse  to  eat  when  he  always 
had  food  before  him.  Being  an  Englishman,  he  could  not  under- 
stand why  a  man  should  die  for  a  principle.  But  the  subordinate 
doctor,  I  must  say,  was  more  sympathetic.  He  never  urged  me  to 
get  my  husband  to  take  food  after  that  one  time  when  he  told  me 
what  it  would  mean  for  our  children,  which  I  think  from  an  Eng- 
lish doctor's  point  of  view  I  did  not  mind  his  putting  before  me. 
He  did  not  say  much  more  to  me  after  that,  but  the  other  ones  did. 
The  specialist,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  came  in  to  see  him  too,  and  he 
was  also  quite  sympathetic. 

Q.     Did  you  see  your  husband  every  day? 

A.  I  saw  him  every  day.  After  a  bit  he  did  not  like  to  be  there 
without  some  one  of  us.  My  brother-in-law  came  over,  and  his 
other  sister  afterwards.  For  of  course  we  were  afraid  that  he  would 
die  any  moment.  Nothing  but  his  faith  kept  him  alive.  There  is 
no  doubt  about  that.  He  did  not  like  to  be  left  alone,  so  one  of  us 
would  go  in  the  morning,  and  another  at  noon,  and  another  in  the 
evening,  and  like  that. 


This  went  on  for  some  time.  My  husband  was  perfectly  peaceful 
and  happy.  I  do  not  think  I  could  have  gone  on  like  that  if  I  had 
not  seen  him  every  day,  because  he  absolutely  radiated  peace.  He 
told  me  in  the  beginning  that  one  reason  that  he  was  glad  to  be 
doing  what  he  was  doing  was  that  he  had  not  taken  a  part  in  any 
of  the  dangerous  things  in  Ireland,  except  the  rebellion,  and  of 
course  they  did  not  fight  in  Cork;  and  he  hated  their  being  in  danger 
when  he  was  not  in  any.  But  what  could  he  do?  So  he  told  me 
that  he  felt  what  he  was  doing  was  as  dangerous  as  anything,  and 


on  account  of  that  he  was  glad  to  do  it.  He  always  wished  to  die 
for  his  country.     He  never  had  any  other  thought. 

Things  went  on  very  much  the  same.  We  always  saw  him.  After 
a  bit  they  got  two  nurses  for  him,  one  for  the  day  and  the  other 
for  the  night. 

My  husband  was  very  charitable,  and  he  never  said  a  word 
against  anyone.  The  doctors  and  nurses  told  me  that  the  only 
thing  which  he  did  say — he  didn't  like  the  head  doctor — and  he  said 
once,  "I  am  fed  up  with  him." 


Then  it  came  to  the  Wednesday  before  he  died.  There  isn't  very 
much  to  tell  up  to  that.  Well,  the  Wednesday  before  he  died,  the 
news  had  already  come  that  one  of  the  hunger  strikers  in  Cork  was 
dead.  Of  course,  the  doctors  had  promised  us  that  they  would  not 
feed  him  and  would  not  put  any  food  in  his  medicine  or  anything 
of  that  kind,  but  they  said  that  if  he  became  unconscious  that  they 
would  feed  him. 

Of  course,  if  a  person  becomes  unconscious,  they  are  unconscious, 
and  they  have  no  will  of  their  own;  and  they  could  do  anything 
they  liked  with  him.  And  so  feeding  him  when  he  was  unconscious 
was  like  feeding  him  when  he  was  dead.  Of  course  they  did  prom- 
ise not  to  feed  him  at  all,  or  to  make  any  attempt  to  forcibly  feed 
him — it  would  have  been  forcible,  as  long  as  he  was  conscious. 
It  was  on  Tuesday,  the  Tuesday  before  my  husband  died,  the  news 
came  from  Cork  to  London  of  the  death  of  one  of  the  hunger 
strikers  there.  Of  course  he  had  gone  a  bit  longer  than  my  husband. 
This  frightened  the  doctors  in  the  prison.  One  of  them  went  to 
my  husband  on  his  usual  visit,  and  he  turned  everybody  out  of  the 
room,  including  the  nurse,  which  was  not  usual,  for  she  always  re- 
mained there.  One  of  my  sisters-in-law  was  there  at. the  time.  When 
she  went  back  into  the  room  my  husband  was  terribly  upset,  fright- 
fully upset,  and  he  said  that  this  doctor  told  him  that  he  had  to  eat, 
he  would  make  him  eat.  When  I  got  there  in  the  evening  the  other 
doctor,  the  second  doctor,  whom  I  do  not  think  would  have  done  a 
thing  like  that,  was  on  duty.  My  sister-in-law  said  to  him  that  Dr. 
Griffiths,  the  head  doctor,  had  threatened  to  make  my  husband  eat 
and  had  made  him  awfully  uneasy  that  morning.  When  I  went  in 
my  husband  was  quiet  like  usual,  but  looking  very  badly — worse 
than  usual. 


The  next  morning  I  was  in  the  office  of  the  Self -Determination 
League  in  London.  The  papers  wished  to  get  bulletins,  and  your 
American  papers,  too,  wished  to  get  bulletins  on  my  husband's  con- 
dition every  two  hours.  We  were  allowed  to  use  the  prison  tele- 
phone^— they  did  not  make  any  difficulty  at  all  whatever  about  it. 
All  the  news  was  sent  out  from  the  office  of  the  Self -Determination 
League;  and  of  course,  if  there  was  any  news  about  my  husband 
for  us,  we  would  get  it  there.  I  happened  to  be  in  there  in  the 
morning.  My  two  brothers-in-law  were  in  there  too.  I  was  told 
that  a  telephone  message  had  come,  and  that  they  were  afraid  the 
news  was  bad.  So  I  and  my  brothers-in-law  went  out  to  the  prison 
with  Mr.  O'Brien,  who  is  the  president  of  the  Self-Determina- 
tion  League. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien? 

A.     Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien,  yes.     Do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  know  him  very  well. 

The  Witness:  So  we  went  out,  and  when  we  got  there  we  heard 
that  my  husband  had  become  quite  delirious.  My  sister-in-law — 
not  this  one,  but  the  other1 — was  with  him.  There  was  hammering 
going  on  outside,  and  my  husband  said  to  her,  "That  is  Dr.  Griffiths' 
new  treatment."  She  said,  "Shall  I  stop  it?"  And  he  said,  "No," 
and  then  went  out  of  his  head  completely.  She  asked  the  warden 
to  telephone  to  the  office  so  we  would  know,  and  he  was  very  reluc- 
tant to  do  it.  It  was  half-past  twelve  when  we  got  there.  Both  of 
my  brothers-in-law  and  my  sisters-in-law  were  there  then.  They 
said  my  husband  was  normal  again.  But  when  I  went  in  I  saw  that 
he  was  not.  He  was  fairly  himself,  but  not  completely.  The  others 
all  went  away  then  but  myself  and  the  sister-in-law.  We  remained 
there.  And  he  said  to  me,  "I  want  the  nurse."  The  nurse  was  at 
her  dinner.  My  husband  always  had  a  most  extraordinary  con- 
sideration for  everybody,  and  when  he  asked  for  the  nurse  when 
she  was  at  her  .dinner,  I  knew  he  was  not  right.  Then  they  asked 
us  to  go  outside  the  door.  We  always  went  outside  the  door  when 
they  asked  us;  we  never  made  any  difficulties  about  that.  And  we 
heard  my  husband  shouting  out,  and  we  went  in  then,  and  he  was 
sitting  up  in  bed  and  shouting.  It  was  the  delirium,  because  before 
this  he  could  not  hardly  move  a  finger,  and  he  spoke  only  in  a 
whisper.  And  he  was  sitting  up  in  bed  and  crying  quite  strong 
and  saying,  "This  nurse  will  not  let  me  have  my  wife  and  sister." 

Miss   Annie   MacSwiney. 


And  we  said,  "Here  we  are,1'  and  he  knew  us  perfectly  well.  That 
was  the  worst  of  it.  And  in  other  things  he  was  as  mad  as  could 
be.  But  one  thing  he  said  to  me  then,  when  I  came  into  the  room, 
I  liked.  He  said,  "'Muriel,  you  have  always  stuck  by  me."  And 
he  was  very  bad  then,  and  talked  rubbish.  He  could  not  have  been 
more  mad  than  he  was.  I  have  seen  mad  people,  and  they  were  not 
worse.  And  then  Dr.  Higson  came  up,  who  had  always  acted  like 
a  gentleman  to  me.  He  stroked  him  and  got  him  to  lie  down;  but 
of  course  he  went  on  throwing  him  arms  about  and  talking.  And 
then  they  gave  him  morphia,  and  then  he  got  quieter,  and  in  about 
an  hour  he  was  asleep.  I  stayed  for  quite  a  good  time,  but  did 
not  disturb  him. 


I  must  tell  you  this  occurrence.  I  wanted  to  do  the  best  I  could 
and  wanted  to  try  to  make  him  better,  and  did  not  know  what 
to  do.  I  used  to  speak  to  him  a  little,  and  then  the  nurse  said,  "I 
think  it  is  better  not  to  speak  to  him,  because  it  disturbs  him."  And 
so  from  that  time  on  I  did  not  speak  to  him,  thinking  it  might 
disturb  him.  In  fact.  I  never  spoke  to  him  first  because  it  was  hard 
for  him  to  respond.  But  if  he  spoke,  I  answered  him  back,  because 
we  did  not  want  to  cross  him  and  offend  him  when  he  was  ill.  He 
would  say  to  me,  "This  is  awful  for  you  because  you  have  to  stay 
here."  And  I  said,  "It  is  a  better  time  than  we  have  had  since  we 
were  married  or  since  you  have  been  Lord  Mayor,  because  I  can 
be  with  you  all  the  time."  And  then  we  laughed.  Anyway,  he  got 
bad  during  the  night.  Of  course  I  was  not  there.  All  up  to  that 
time,  although  my  husband  had  got  terribly  emaciated,  his  mind 
was  perfectly  clear  and  anybody  could  recognize  him,  because  the 
face  is  the  last  thing  that  the  hunger  strike  affects.  For  instance, 
a  friend  of  mine  who  was  our  bridesmaid  stayed  with  me  all  the 
time  I  was  in  London.  She  did  not  ask  to  see  him.  She  was  very 
sensible.  But  he  asked  to  see  her  when  she  was  going  home,  and' 
so  she  went  to  see  him.  She  said  she  would  have  known  him  quite 
well,  although  of  course  it  gave  her  a  great  shock  to  see  him.  Up 
to  that  time,  although  he  was  delirious,  you  would  have  known  him. 
But  the  next  morning  when  I  went  in,  I  would  not  have  known  him 
at  all.  He  was  very  quiet,  and  only  moved  his  hands  a  little  bit. 
That  was  Wednesday  he  got  bad.  The  next  day  was  Thursday.  On 
Friday  I  was  there  in  the  evening.  Of  course  they  started  feeding 
him  when  he  was  unconscious.  And  the  nurse  used  to  do  that.  I 
know  very  well  that  as  long  as  the  nurse  was  there  at  all,  she  had 


to  do  what  the  doctor  told  her,  and  I  never  interfered  with  her  in 
any  way.  I  would  not  have  spoken  to  her  while  she  was  doing  it, 
because  I  was  at  one  side  of  the  bed  and  she  was  at  the  other,  and 
I  might  have  disturbed  my  husband.  He  never  understood  anything 
that  was  going  on  about  him,  I  know,  but  there  was  a  chance  that 
it  might  have  disturbed  him,  so  I  never  said  anything  to  her  at  all. 
Well,  on  Friday  I  was  there  in  the  evening,  and  my  bnother-in-law, 
the  one  who  was  in  New  York,  Peter,  he  was  there  with  me.  And 
then  the  doctor  came  in  in  the  evening.  This  was  the  one,  the 
head  one,  Dr.  Griffiths.  Of  course  I  went  out  of  the  room.  We  both 
went  out  of  the  room.  We  always  did  when  the  doctor  was  there, 
naturally.  When  he  came  out  he  told  the  warder  to  tell  me  that 
we  were  not  to  go  into  the  room  any  more,  any  of  us;  that  we  were 
not  to  go  into  the  room  at  all.  I  must  say  that  after  he  got  very 
bad  the  nurse  used  to  turn  us  out  very  often.  So  they  now  said 
also  that  we  were  not  even  to  stay  outside  the  door.  You  see,  when 
we  would  go  outside  the  room  before,  we  used  to  stay  outside  the 
door  always.  And  they  also  stopped  up  every  little  hole  or  window 
we  could  see  through.  The  warder  said  we  could  not  stay  outside 
the  door,  and  I  said  I  wanted  to  speak  to  the  doctor,  and  he  went 
down  and  found  him.  And  I  asked  him  if  he  was  dying,,  if  he 
would  not  want  his  wife  to  be  near  him.  And  he  said  he  would. 
And  he  said  it  was  bad  for  us  to  be  in  the  room,  so  many  of  us. 
And  I  said,  "We  will  go  out  and  only  one  stay."  And  then  he  laid 
it  onto  the  nurse.  He  said  the  nurse  said  it  was  bad  for  so  many 
of  us  to  be  in  the  room.  And  I  said,  "What  harm  have  I  done  since 
I  have  been  here  with  my  husband?"  And  he  said  nothing.  He 
could  not  tell  me  a  single  thing  that  I  had  done  to  harm  my  hus- 
band. After  a  bit — he  was  a  very  weak  man,  you  see — he  gave  in. 
I  suppose  he  got  orders  to  do  this  from  the  Home  Office,  but  he 
gave  in.  And  he  said  I  could  go  in  there  when  the  nurse  permitted 
me  to,  and  that  I  could  stay  outside  the  door.  I  said,  "I  cannot 
be  here  always,  and  what  will  we  do  when  I  cannot  be  here?"  He 
said,  "I  cannot  refuse  you,  because  you  are  his  wife."  But  he  had 
refused  me  previously.  But  he  said  the  others  could  come  there, 
but  they  would  have  to  stay  downstairs,  a  long  distance  away,  and 
could  not  stay  outside  the  door.  I  said  that  the  only  conclusion 
we  could  come  to  when  they  kept  us  outside  of  my  husband's  room 
was  that  they  were  doing  something  they  did  not  wish  us  to  see. 
So  he  finally  said  that  when  I  could  not  be  there,  I  could  name  one 
of  the  others  to  stay  with  my  husband  when  the  nurse  permitted. 
Then  I  went  upstairs.  There  was  another  nurse  there,  a  new  one, 
and  I  asked  her  if  it  was  true  that  she  had  said  I  was  not  to  go  into 


my  husband's  room,  and  she  said  it  was.  And  I  put  the  same  ques- 
tion to  her  I  had  put  to  the  doctor;  and  she  said,  "No,  you  do  not 
interfere  with  me.  You  have  never  interfered  with  me  when  I  was 
feeding  him.  But  I  know  you  are  against  it,  and  it  makes  me 
nervous."  They  were  feeding  him.  They  were  giving  him  two 
teaspoonfuls  of  liquid  food. 

Q.     When  did  they  begin  that? 

A.  Five  days  before  his  death.  That  was  Wednesday,  and  he 
died  the  following  Monday.  I  said  to  her,  "Of  course,  I  can  quite 
understand  that  as  long  as  you  are  here,  you  have  to  do  what  the 
doctor  tells  you;  but  if  I  were  you  I  would  not  take  a  case  like  this." 
She  knew  she  was  not  doing  right.  But  she  said,  "I  have  taken  this 
case  and  I  must  see  it  out."  But  my  husband  never  said  a  word 
against  this  nurse,  never  a  word. 

I  must  tell  you  this,  that  she  let  me  in  the  room  just  a  few  mo- 
ments at  a  time.  I  was  just  outside  the  room,  but  I  hardly  ever 
saw  my  husband  at  all. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  the  newspapers  of  Great  Britain  an- 
nounce that  he  was  being  fed? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.  There  were  announcements  in  the  American  press  that  his 
relatives  were  feeding  him. 

A.     Yes,  that  was  British  propaganda. 

Q.     Where  did  those  announcements  come  from? 

A.     From  the  British  government.     It  was  British  propaganda. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  his  relatives  at  any 
time  put  food  before  him? 

A.     Never.     His  relatives  never  did  that. 

Q.     Did  the  prison  officials  offer  him  food? 

A.     Yes,  always;  it  was  always  beside  him. 

Q.     Did  they  bring  him  fresh  food? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  it  was  milk  and  broth  and  things  like  that  that  he 
would  have  had  if  he  got  out.     Food  was  always  put  before  him. 


The  next  day  was  Saturday.  My  brother-in-law  had  been  there 
with  him  through  the  night,  and  my  sister-in-law  was  there  to  relieve 
him.  I  found  her  in  the  waiting  room  just  inside  the  gate,  and  then 
she  told  me  that  they  would  not  let  her  in;  they  had  refused  to  let 


her  into  the  prison  at  all.    The  same  sort  of  business  that  had  been 
going  on  the  night  before. 

They  would  not  let  her  out  to  telephone  either,  and  she  could  not 
send  any  message  to  my  brother-in-law  either.  He  was  accustomed 
to  be  relieved  in  the  morning,  after  being  there  all  night.  I  went 
upstairs  immediately,  and  it  was  about  ten-thirty,  and  the  nurse 
would  not  let  me  in. 

As  I  said,  I  had  always  telephoned  about  noon  to  Mr.  O'Brien's 
office  about  the  condition  of  my  husband.  They  had  never  made 
the  slightest  objection  to  it.  The  clerk  now  said  I  could  not  use  the 
telephone,  and  I  said,  "By  whose  orders?"  And  he  said,  "By  the 
governor's  order."  And  he  said  very  politely  that  he  would  speak 
to  the  governor  if  I  wished.  And  I  said  I  would  speak  to  him 
myself.  And  I  went  up  to  the  governor  and  asked  him,  and  he  said 
it  was  his  orders.  And  I  said,  "I  wanted  to  know,  because  of  course 
your  government  is  murdering  my  husband.  You  are  only  an  in- 
strument. But  I  want  to  know  whether  you  are  carrying  out  their 
orders."  The  governor  said  that  we  were  using  the  telephone  too 
much.  I  said  we  had  never  used  the  telephone  much,  and  only 
with  their  permission.  The  deputy  governor  came  up,  and  said 
we  had  always  respected  their  wishes  and  had  not  used  the  telephone 
very  much.  He  then  had  to  admit  it.  I  said  another  thing:  "You 
must  have  got  orders  about  this,  so  that  they  are  stopping  us  from 
going  in  to  see  my  husband."  I  think  he  was  surprised  at  that,  but 
he  said,  "You  are  very  well  treated  here.  You  are  using  this  place 
like  a  hotel,  coming  in  here  any  moment  you  like."  And  I  said, 
"This  is  hardly  like  a  hotel.  My  husband  does  not  wish  to  be 
here,  and  you  are  keeping  him  against  his  will."  And  he  said, 
"Even  in  ordinary  hospitals  there  are  visiting  hours,  and  you  are 
not  allowed  to  see  your  friends  at  any  time."  And  I  said,  "In  an 
ordinary  hospital  we  would  have  put  my  husband  there  with  people 
whom  we  trusted."  I  did  not  have  any  fight  with  him,  but  he  had 
nothing  to  say.  He  sent  a  message  up  in  the  afternoon  that  if  I  had 
anything  to  telephone  and  wrote  it  on  a  piece  of  paper,  they  would 
send  it.    Of  course  you  know  what  that  would  have  meant. 

When  my  sister-in-law  came  in  later,  she  was  refused  in  the  same 
manner.     When  I  got  back  to  the  room  the  nurse  let  me  in  about 
half-past  twelve,  and  then  I  was  turned  out  again. 


(Senator  Thomas  Walsh,  of  Montana,  arrives  and  is  escorted  to 
the  Commissioners'  bench.) 

She  let  me  in  for  half  an  hour,  and  then  I  was  asked  to  go  out. 
She  made  some  excuse  like  she  had  to  take  his  temperature.  I 
expect  she  was  feeding  my  husband.  And  then  I  was  in  again  a 
half  hour  later.  Then  the  head  doctor,  Dr.  Griffiths,  came  in  and 
asked  the  nurse  to  go  out,  and  I  went  out  too.  So  I  had  only  about 
a  half  hour  with  my  husband  that  day.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was 
the  last  day  I  saw  him;  but  I  think  he  may  have  half  known  me  that 
day,  because  he  smiled  a  little  bit  when  I  kissed  him.  I  do  not 
know,  but  I  think  he  did. 

There  was  another  thing  about  my  husband  that  I  want  to  men- 
tion. I  think  the  hardest  thing  on  him  was  being  separated  from 
his  little  daughter.  And  I  asked  him  if  he  would  like  to  have  her 
over,  and  he  said,  "Oh,  no;  it  would  only  be  cruelty  to  have  her 
over,"  and  she  would  not  recognize  him  if  she  saw  him  because  he 
was  so  changed. 

That  day  Mr.  O'Brien  came  up  and  took  me  to  the  Home  Office, 
and  we  spoke  to  them  there,  protesting  about  the  treatment  of  my 
sister-in-law  and  myself,  and  requesting  them  to  let  my  husband's 
relatives  be  near  him.  Of  course  they  refused;  and  they  refused 
about  the  telephone  point  blank.  There  was  no  humanity  in  them 

The  next  morning  was  the  first  time  that  I  collapsed  at  all.  I  had 
kept  up  until  then  and  really  felt  very  well.  But  the  next  morning 
I  felt  ill  and  could  not  go,  and  went  to  bed  again.  And  in  the 
afternoon,  since  I  was  about  the  only  person  that  was  allowed  in 
the  room,  Mr.  O'Brien  took  me  down  in  a  taxi.  I  opened  the  door 
and  the  nurse  was  there,  and  she  said,  "Would  you  wait  outside  a 
few  minutes?"  I  had  not  been  there  at  all  that  day,  and  my 
brother-in-law  had  not  been  there.  I  must  tell  you  that  the  day 
before  I  had  not  been  allowed  in  to  see  him  until  half-past  twelve, 
although  I  had  come  about  ten.  This  day  the  nurse  said,  "Would 
you  wait  just  a  little  while?"  They  had  a  habit  then  of  having  a 
warder  just  inside  the  door.  And  I  opened  the  door  again  in  about 
five  minutes  and  asked  if  I  could  go  in,  and  he  said  he  would  ask 
the  nurse,  and  she  said  no,  she  was  taking  his  temperature.  And  in 
about  five  minutes  more,  about  twenty  minutes  from  the  time  I 
came,  I  sent  in  word  again  if  I  could  see  him,  and  she  said  no,  I 
could  not.  And  so  I  did  not  see  my  husband  again  until  after  his 


The  next  day  my  brother-in-law  1  was  there,  and  his  chaplain, 
Father  Dominick,  and  they  saw  him.  He  was  dead,  and  he  looked 
like  a  perfect  martyr. 


Shall  I  tell  you  about  the  inquest? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes. 

The  Witness:  That  was  on  Wednesday.  I  was  in  bed  after  he 
died.  But  they  thought  it  was  important  for  me  to  be  at  the  inquest, 
and  I  went.  I  was  addressed  by  the  coroner,  who  asked  me  my 
address.  I  was  puzzled,  because  we  had  no  address.  We  could  not 
have  a  home.  And  I  said,  "Cork."  And  he  said,  "Cork  is  a  big 
place."  But  that  was  the  best  I  could  do.  He  asked  me  my  hus- 
band's profession,  and  I  said,  "An  officer  of  the  Irish  Republican 
Army."  And  he  said  that  was  no  profession.  Being  English,  he 
could  not  understand  why  a  man  should  have  a  profession  when  he 
was  not  working  for  money.  And  I  said,  "You  have  an  army,  and 
you  have  officers."  And  then  I  think  he  understood,  quite.  Of 
course  I  told  him  that  my  husband  did  not  wish  to  die.  And  the 
specialist  who  had  seen  him,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  had  said  so  too. 
I  was  glad  that  we  called  him  in.  I  told  them  that  as  soon  as  my 
husband  got  out,  he  would  take  food  and  get  better.  He  was  only 
on  hunger  strike,  as  you  know,  as  a  protest  for  being  arrested  ille- 
gally; arrested  by  the  forces  of  England  in  Ireland.  It  was  illegal 
for  them  to  arrest  the  Lord  Mayor,  the  chief  magistrate  of  the  city 
of  Cork.  It  was  against  the  laws  of  the  Irish  Republic  that  they 
should  do  such  a  thing. 


When  the  inquest  was  over  our  solicitor  asked  the  Crown  solicitor 
for  my  husband's  body.  And  he  said,  "Where  is  the  funeral  to  take 
place?"  And  my  brother-in-law  said,  "In  Cork,  of  course."  Then 
the  chief  solicitor  said,  "You  cannot  do  that.  You  must  get  a 
permit  to  take  his  body  out  of  England."  And  he  said  we  should 
ask  the  governor.  And  we  asked  the  governor  and  he  referred  us 
to  the  Home  Office.  And  so  Mr.  O'Brien  and  Mr.  MacDonald  and 
I  all  went  to  the  Home  Office.  We  saw  Mr.  Shortt,  and  he  hemmed 
and  hawed  and  all  that,  but  tried  to  evade  telling  us  anything  defi- 
nite. I  never  met  a  man  who  was  a  greater  brute.  He  was  not  a 
gentleman,  anyway  not  in  his  outside  manner.     He  was  just  jesting 

John  MacSwiney. 


and  laughing  all  the  time.  I  said,  "I  understand  that  there  was  a 
technical  difficulty  about  my  husband's  body  coming  with  us,  but 
I  suppose  there  would  be  no  difficulty."  He  said,  "I  know  nothing 
at  all  about  it."  They  all  say  that  over  there.  And  I  said,  "I  sup- 
pose I  can  go  and  take  my  husband's  body."  And  he  then  got 
afraid,  and  he  said,  "Oh,  you  cannot  do  that.  There  may  be  some 
law  against  it."  And  I  said,  "Will  you  find  out  what  the  law  is? 
How  long  will  it  take  you  to  do  it?"  He  said,  "I  cannot  tell  you 
how  long  it  may  take — an  hour  or  more.  I  don't  know."  I  said, 
"Do  you  refuse  to  give  me  my  husband's  body?"  And  he  said, 
"Oh,  no;  I  cannot  say  that." 

One  of  Mr.  Shortt's  secretaries  came  out  with  us.  I  must  say 
that  he  was  a  contrast  to  Mr.  Shortt.  He  gave  me  a  chair  and  asked 
me  if  I  wanted  to  sit  down.  He  said  that  if  we  would  come  back 
in  an  hour,  he  would  see  about  it.  He  said  they  would  make 
arrangements  and  perhaps  give  us  a  special  boat  to  go  to  Dublin. 
Of  course  our  arrangements  had  been  made.  When  Mr.  MacDonald 
saw  him  a  little  later,  Mr.  Shortt  said  it  would  be  all  right,  and  he 
was  sorry  there  had  been  any  delay,  and  of  course  it  had  absolutely 
nothing  to  do  with  him,  and  that  we  could  take  the  body.  My 
sister-in-law  will  tell  you  what  happened  afterwards  and  how  they 
broke  their  word. 


Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Senator  Walsh  would  like  to  ask  you  a  few 

Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  what  the  spirit  of  the 
Irish  women  in  Ireland  is  about  the  establishment  of  the  Irish 

A.  Just  what  mine  is  and  what  my  husband's  was.  Of  course 
we  all  want  our  Republic  and  we  want  England  gone,  and  there 
will  not  be  peace  in  the  world  until  we  get  it. 

Q.     To  what  extent  have  the  women  organized  and  taken  action? 

A.  They  have  a  society  called  the  Cumann  na  niBan.  That  is 
a  society  of  women  like  the  Red  Cross.  But  I  think  my  sister-in-law 
can  tell  you  more  about  that  than  I  can.  Especially  after  the  baby 
came,  I  minded  the  baby  myself. 

Q.     Do  you  know  anything  about  the  present  sufferings  of  the 
people,  especially  among  the  women  and  children  in  Ireland? 


A.  Yes,  indeed  I  do.  The  Black-and-Tans — one  of  the  things 
they  did  was  to  prevent  the  people  going  into  the  shops  and  buying 
food.  Also,  they  are  destroying  creameries,  and  that  means  no  milk 
distributed  in  the  towns  for  the  children.  And  of  course  there  has 
always  been  a  great  deal  of  poverty  in  Ireland,  as  I  told  you;  and 
they  are  making  things  a  hundred  times  worse. 

Q.     Is  it  your  opinion  that  relief  is  needed  in  Ireland? 

A.     It  is  absolutely  essential  or  all  the  people  will  die. 

Q.  To  what  extent  was  the  policy  of  starvation  being  carried  out 
when  you  left  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  I  left  Ireland  three  months  ago,  you  see,  and  it  is  since 
then  that  all  that  has  come  in  force.  I  was  ill,  of  course,  and  did 
not  go  back  for  my  husband's  funeral,  but  my  sister-in-law  did,  and 
she  can  tell  you. 

Q.     You  did  not  go  to  your  husband's  funeral? 

A.  No,  I  was  ill.  My  sister-in-law  was  there.  I  was  only  in 
Ireland  for  a  few  days  before  I  came  on.  The  day  I  was  there  they 
shot  into  a  football  match  and  killed  several  people. 

Q.     Were  you  there  at  the  game? 

A.  No.  But  then  in  Cork  it  was  very  much  the  same.  They 
threw  a  bomb  into  a  crowd  and  killed  four  people.  One  young 
man  whom  I  knew,  they  took  both  his  legs  off,  and  he  did  not  die 
until  the  next  day.  And  of  course  ever  so  many  people  were  in- 
jured.    My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  ever  so  much  more  about  that. 

But  even  before  I  left  for  England  there  were  motor  lorries  and 
armored  cars  going  through  the  streets  so  close  that  often  one  could 
scarcely  pass  between  them.  One  day  while  I  was  on  the  tram  they 
fired.  Nobody  in  the  tram  was  hurt,  but  we  all  saw  them  fire.  And 
these  lorries  full  of  soldiers  have  terrorized  the  countryside.  There 
was  a  Mrs.  Quinn,  a  younger  woman  than  I  am.  She  was  sitting  on 
a  lonely  country  road,  as  I  often  did  when  I  was  in  the  country 
with  the  baby.  She  was  sitting  by  the  road  with  one  baby,  and 
was  going  to  have  another  soon.  And  the  Black-and-Tans  came 
along  the  road  in  a  lorry  and  shot  her.1 

Q.     Had  she  committed  any  offense? 

A.  Oh,  no;  none  whatever.  To  prove  that  there  was  no  one 
with  her,  it  was  some  time  before  a  priest  came.  It  was  a  very 
out-of-the-way  place.     I  felt  that  that  case  might  have  been  mine. 

Q.  Some  one  has  related  that  the  women  of  Ireland  have  steeled 
themselves  to  such  an  extent  that  weeping  is  unknown  among  them. 

A.     Well,  I  never  cry. 

Q.     Is  that  the  general  feeling — that  they  must  steel   themselves 

The  case  of  Mrs.  Ellen  Quinn  of  Gort,  County  Galway. 


A.  Yes.  it  is.  Weeping  is  almost  unknown.  But  there  is  just 
one  thing:  you  know  I  did  not  go  back  to  my  own  country  except 
for  two  or  three  days,  but  I  never  cried  all  through,  not  even  at  the 
end.  But  since  I  have  been  here  I  feel  that  there  is  so  much  sym- 
pathy— I  am  not  speaking  of  sympathy  in  letters  and  what  people 
say  to  me.  but  it  is  what  I  feel  from  everyone.  But  that  sympathy 
has  almost  made  me  cry  here,  and  it  did  yesterday,  and  I  felt  that 
I  might  not  be  able  to  go  through  this  hearing  today. 


Q.  Did  your  husband  ever  say  what  he  felt  his  sacrifice  would 
do  for  Ireland?  A.  He  hoped  that  it  would  strengthen  them  still 
further  in  their  struggle  for  independence. 

Q.     That  was  one  of  his  considerations? 

A.  That  was,  of  course,  the  main  consideration  of  his  life.  He 
never  thought  of  anything  else. 

Q.     Where  is  your  baby  now?      A.     In  Cork. 

Q.  Is  she  well?  A.  Very  well.  Would  you  like  to  see  her 
photo?      I've  just  got  it  from  home. 

The  Commission:  Very,  very  much. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Your  husband's  hunger  strike  lasted 
seventy-four  days?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  You  saw  your  husband  the  last  time  how  many  days  before 
his  death?  A.  I  saw  him  on  Saturday.  I  was  not  allowed  in  at  all 
on  Sunday.     And  he  died  on  Monday. 

Q.  On  Monday?  A.  I  was  not  called  at  all  when  he  died.  He 
died  at  six.  and  I  did  not  hear  about  it  until  eight  o'clock. 

Q.  Did  the  doctor  persist  in  feeding  him  when  he  was  uncon- 
scious until  the  very  end?  A.  Oh,  yes,  and  I  think  that  that  really 
killed  him.  It  was  terrible  to  see  him  when  he  was  more  helpless 
than  our  baby  was  when  she  was  born. 

Q.  That  feeding  continued  from  Wednesday,  then,  until 

A.  Oh,  yes.  And  I  know  that  he  was  in  pain,  because  I  could 
see  it  on  his  face.  Another  time  when  I  saw  him  in  great  pain  was 
on  the  tenth  day.  He  said  to  me  that  it  was  not  so  that  people  never 
desired  food  after  the  tenth  day-     He  suffered  right  to  the  end. 

Q.     He  wanted  food  right  to  the  end?     A.    Yes,  indeed. 



I  hope  you  will  all  help  us  win  our  Republic,  because  that  was 
what  my  husband  lived  and  died  for.  And  we  look  on  you  in 
America  very  much  as  our  own  people,  because  you  have  been  all 
so  very  kind  to  us.  I  looked  upon  this  hearing  as  an  ordeal,  but 
it  has  not  been  at  all.  So  I  hope  you  will  all  do  what  you  can 
for  us.  Also  in  the  relief  which  I  think  has  been  started  for  Ire- 
land. But  of  course  the  chief  thing  is  for  Ireland  to  get  her 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  think  the  relief  work  is  the  greatest 
thing  that  can  be  done  for  the  Irish  people? 

A.  Yes,  I  do;  but  I  think  recognizing  our  Republic  is  the  most 
immediate.  The  people  who  have  suffered  and  are  suffering  most 
from  hunger  would  choose  that,  too.     It  is  the  most  immediate. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


Session  Two,  Continued 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  December  9,  1920.     2:15  P.  M. 


Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  proceed  now  if  you  will 
quiet  down  and  take  your  seats. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  believe  you  said 
that  you  had  not  finished  your  remarks  on  some  phases  last  evening 
that  you  would  like  to  begin  now  with.  I  think  Miss  MacSwiney  has 
a  number  of  detail's  that  her  sister-in-law  was  not  familiar  with. 

The  Witness:    What  do  you  want  me  to  begin  with? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  perhaps  it  might  be  well  to  tell  the 
story  of  the  taking  of  your  brother  to  London,  and  what  took  place 
at  Holyhead,  and  all  that. 

The  Witness:  Then  I  am  to  tell  my  part  in  my  brother's  arrest 
and  imprisonment? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes,  it  would  be  well  to  tell  that,  and  about  his 


The  Witness:  I  think  it  might  be  well  for  me  to  emphasize  some- 
thing in  my  sister-in-law's  story,  something  that  she  did  not  em- 
phasize very  much.  She  is  very  young,  and  she  was  never  used  to 
fighting  things  out  as  we  were,  and  the  constant  strain  of  her  hus- 
band's being  on  the  run,  as  we  call  it  in  Ireland — that  is,  avoiding 
arrest,  especially  that  terrible  time  when  she  had  to  take  a  little 
baby  of  six  weeks  old  from  the  south  to  the  north  of  Ireland  to  see 
her  father  in  prison,  because  we  knew  he  would  be  arrested  upon 
his  release;  and  the  result  was  that  for  months  before  my  brother's 
final  arrest  she  really  was  in  a  very  precarious  state  of  health.  And 
that  added  very  much  to  his  troubles.  From  Christmas  last  until 
Easter  she  was  so  ill  that  she  was  unable  to  have  her  little  baby 
with  her,  and  the  baby  was  with  us  all  the  time.  Her  husband  went 
constantly  to  see  her  when  he  could.  He  occasionally  spent  a  night 
with  her.    She  was  very  ill  indeed,  but  she  did  the  best  she  could  to 



keep  up.  At  Easter  time  she  was  better.  That  was  just  before  he 
was  made  Lord  Mayor.  You  asked  her  to  state  what  he  said  to  her 
about  that.  I  imagine  he  said  very  little,  because  he  knew  and  we 
all  knew  that  it  would  mean  his  death.  And  naturally  he  did  not 
want  to  distress  her  by  talking  about  that. 

At  Easter  time,  that  is,  very  shortly  after  he  was  made  Lord  Mayor, 
she  got  very  much  better,  and  the  baby  was  taken  up  to  see  her  just 
on  the  Saturday  before  Easter.  At  that  time  my  sister  and  I  had  to 
go  to  Dublin  on  business,  and  we  would  have  been  very  puzzled  to 
know  what  to  do  about  baby  if  her  mother  had  not  got  better.  She 
went  up  to  her  mother  then,  and  was  with  her  until  she  went  to 
England.  But  all  that  time  my  brother  was  on  the  run — you  know 
that  on  the  run  means  evading  arrest. 


Q.  Senator  Walsh:  May  I  interrupt  to  ask  you  what  per  cent, 
of  young  men  are  on  the  run? 

A.  I  would  say  about  ninety-nine  per  cent., — perhaps  a  hundred 
per  cent,  of  the  young  men  and  some  of  the  old  men. 

Q.  So  that  every  young  man  of  military  age  is,  under  present 
conditions,  unable  to  live  in  his  own  home? 

A.  Yes.  Some  of  them  do  live  there,  but  they  take  their  chances. 
My  oldest  brother,  who  is  an  American  citizen,  is  not  sleeping  at 
home  with  us  simply  because  my  sister  will  not  have  my  brother  in 
the  house.  Generally  one  looks  upon  one's  brother  as  a  protection. 
But  when  you  have  a  house  full  of  women,  you  can  sometimes  es- 
cape from  the  visits  of  the  Black-and-Tans,  who  say  that  they  are 
not  shooting  down  women  and  children.  They  are  doing  it  secretly, 
but  they  have  not  done  it  openly  so  far.  But  if  they  come  to  your 
house  at  night,  they  would  shoot  down  any  man  they  found  there. 
My  brothers  have  been  staying  with  friends.  My  oldest  brother  said 
some  time  ago,  "What  is  the  use  of  sending  me  to  So-and-So's  house, 
for  they  are  all  on  the  run  too,  and  it  seems  to  me  that  all  the  men 
in  Ireland  are  sleeping  in  one  another's  houses."  But  it  saves  them, 
because  when  the  Black-and-Tans  come  to  a  house  and  find  a  man 
and  ask  him  his  name,  and  he  does  not  happen  to  be  the  man  they 
are  looking  for,  they  often  do  not  take  that  man,  and  go  away  quite 

Another  point  is  why  we  are  not  afraid  during  the  day.  My 
sister  explained  that.  My  brother  always  had  a  bodyguard  during 
the  day,  and  they  did  not  arrest  him,  and  would  not  ordinarily 
arrest  any  other  man  during  the  day  because  they  would  not  want  to 


be  recognized.  That  is  one  reason.  Another  is  that  deeds  of  dark- 
ness are  always  done  in  the  dark.  We  never  fear  arrest  during 
the  day.      It   is  always  at   night  that  they   conic. 

I  can  also  tell  you  that  a  couple  of  nights  when  the  searching 
seemed  to  slacken  a  little,  my  brother  was  in  a  very  great  need 
of  rest,  and  he  said  he  would  sleep  at  home.  I  would  like  to  em- 
phasize that  "at  home"  always  means  our  home,  because,  although 
they  had  two  houses  after  they  were  married,  he  was  never  able 
to  sleep  at  home.  On  a  couple  of  occasions  he  was  very  tired  and 
said,  "I  must  absolutely  have  a  night's  rest,  and  I  must  risk  it." 
One  night  when  he  decided  to  risk  it,  at  half-past  eleven  there  was 
a  knock  at  the  door.  You  can  imagine  our  state  of  mind  when  at 
that  hour  there  was  a  knock  at  the  door,  and  we  thought  it  was 
the  military.  That  particular  night  it  happened  not  to  be  the  mili- 
tary. It  was  one  of  his  Volunteers  who  came  to  tell  him  that  the 
enemy  were  on  his  track  and  he  would  have  to  go.  And  he  had 
to  get  up  and  go  at  that  time  of  night.  Another  night  when  he 
and  his  bodyguard  ventured  to  stay  in  the  house,  a  similar  mes- 
sage came.  We  were  sure  it  was  the  military,  and  they  got  ready 
to  defend  themselves.  They  were  not  going  to  be  taken  alive.  We 
went  to  the  door,  and  we  discovered  it  was  another  Volunteer  sol- 
dier with  the  message  that  they  were  after  him.  But  the  two,  my 
brother  and  his  bodyguard,  the  two  of  them  were  there;  and  if 
they  had  come  and  trapped  them,  they  would  have  sold  their 
lives  dearly. 

The  result  of  it  was  that  he  got  no  rest.  He  did  not  try  to  stay 
at  home  a  third  time.  That  was  the  kind  of  a  life  they  were  living. 
He  always  went  about  guarded.  All  his  meals  were  taken  at  our 
house.  We  are  quite  near,  not  more  than  six  minutes'  walk  from 
the  city  hall.  He  w-as  able  to  come  over  the  bridges  of  the  north 
and  south  channels  quietly  and  take  his  meals.  His  last  meal  there 
was  for  tea  at  half-past  five  on  the  afternoon  of  his  arrest.  And 
then  he  went  to  the  city  hall  and  was  arrested. 

Senator  Walsh:  When  I  interrupted  you,  you  were  speaking 
about  the  health  of  your  sister-in-law,  and  you  were  talking  about 
vour  brother  being  on  the  run. 

The  Witness:  I  don't  think  I  need  to  say  any  more  about  my 
sister-in-law's  health,  except  just  that.  She  really  did  have  a  very 
hard  time  of  it.  and  she  broke  down  also  just  after  the  inquest. 
She  broke  down  and  was  obliged  to  stay  in  London,  as  I  said. 
There  is  a  limit  to  human  endurance,  and  some  of  us  have  had  to 
go  quite  close  to  it.  She  could  not  do  anything  more  for  him,  and 
I  think  she  was  too  ill  to  go  back  to  Cork  and  face  thinsrs  there. 



There  is  another  thing.  It  is  harder  to  face  sympathy  some- 
times than  to  face  brutality.  One  of  the  senators  asked  if  it  is 
true  that  the  women  of  Ireland  have  steeled  themselves  against 
tears.  While  we  were  in  England  it  was  a  point  of  honor  to  us 
that  the  enemy  should  never  see  us  cry.  It  does  not  mean  that  the 
women  of  Ireland  do  not  have  to  cry  sometimes  in  secret.  And 
what  my  sister-in-law  told  you  is  true.  We  have  been  nearer  to 
tears  since  we  came  to  America  than  any  time  since  we  have 
been  in  England.  That  is  why  I  say  that  sympathy  is  often  harder 
to  bear  than  cruelty. 

Our  tormentors  in  England  gave  us  the  very  great  privilege  of 
being  with  him  from  early  morning  to  night,  and  my  youngest 
brother  stayed  with  him  all  night.  That  was  a  very  great  privi- 
lege, but  we  knew  that  it  was  not  given  to  us  for  kindness.  It 
was  given  to  us  because  they  thought  that  no  body  of  women 
could  go  through  that  without  breaking  down,  and  if  we  would 
break  down,  it  might  cause  my  brother  to  break  down.  That  was 
the  reason  for  allowing  us  to  see  my  brother.  And  it  was  very, 
very  trying  to  see  him  dying  by  inches. 

In  telling  you  my  brother's  story,  I  would  like  to  confine  myself 
to  his  prison  experiences  from  the  point  of  view  of  Ireland  and 
not  the  personal  point  of  view.  I  want  to  deal  with  the  English 
propaganda  to  discredit  him  and  to  discredit  Ireland's  cause.  And 
I  will  ask  you  to  allow  me  to  leave  the  personal  side  of  it  out  of 
the  question. 


When  my  brother  was  arrested,  he  was  arrested  on  no  particular 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  This  was  his  last  arrest? 

A.  This  was  his  last  arrest.  The  charge  was  manufactured 
after  the  arrest.  That  was  quite  usual.  They  always  manufacture 
the  evidence.  But  I  will  come  back  to  that  later  on.  Perhaps 
there  is  one  particular  thing  I  had  better  tell  you  now.  They  have 
very  often  manufactured  evidence  in  this  way:  they  have  sent 
anonymous  letters  to  the  houses  of  people  which  they  were  going 
to  raid,  addressed  to  the  person  they  wanted  to  implicate.  These 
anonymous  letters  were  very  often  incitements  to  shoot  policemen, 
and  various  things  like  that.     If  these  letters  were  found,  then  they 


were  immediately  brought  up  as  evidence.  Now,  this  has  hap- 
pened in  several  instances.  On  one  particular  morning  the  Countess 
de  Markievicz  got  by  the  first  post  a  letter  with  the  copy  of  a 
police  document  which  was  of  very  great  importance.  She  was 
clever  enough, — we  all  have  to  keep  our  wits  about  us, — to  put 
it  straight  in  the  fire.  A  half  hour  later  the  house  was  raided,  and 
every  letter — every  bit  of  paper  was  examined.  They  were  look- 
ing for  that  document  which  they  themselves  had  sent. 

On  Thursday  my  brother  was  arrested,  on  Thursday  night  at 
seven  o'clock.  On  that  afternoon,  by  the  afternoon  post,  which 
comes  between  half -past  four  and  five,  a  letter  came  addressed 
to  The  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  care  of  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  Bel- 
grave  Place,  Cork.  There  was  also  an  indication  that  I  might  open 
it.  0  yes,  it  was  addressed  to  the  Lord  Mayor  or  to  Miss  Mary 
MacSwiney,  Belgrave  Place,  Cork.  That  came  about  a  half  hour 
before  my  brother  came  home  to  tea.  I  opened  it.  It  was  in  a 
disguised  handwriting,  and  purported  to  be  from  a  Volunteer  in 
Tipperary  saying  that  the  Volunteers  in  Tipperary  were  very  lax 
in  the  people  they  allowed  to  go  about,  giving  details  about  a 
certain  policeman  named  Quinn,  whom  this  letter  said  was  causing 
a  great  deal  of  trouble,  and  urging  that  without  further  delay 
this  man  should  be  shot.  I  read  the  letter  twice  over.  It  was  an 
anonymous  letter.  I  tore  it  up  and  burnt  it.  When  my  brother 
came  in,  I  told  him  what  had  happened.  These  things  are  so 
much  matters  of  course  that  there  was '  not  much  more  comment 
made  about  it. 

They  arrested  him  at  seven  o'clock.  At  midnight  that  night 
two  military  officers  and  a  large  body  of  men  came  to  our  house 
to  raid  it.  They  were  sent  for  that  letter.  They  wanted  it  for 
evidence  against  my  brother.  That  is  the  sort  of  thing  that  we 
have  to  put  up  with.  That  is  the  sort  of  wicked  propaganda — they 
manufacture  that  propaganda.  If  that  letter  had  been  found  in 
my  house — because  they  knew  his  letters  always  went  there — if 
that  letter  had  been  found  he  would  have  been  charged,  not  with 
the  charges  that  were  preferred  against  him,  but  on  being  the 
leader  of  a  conspiracy  to  murder  policemen.  And  they  searched 
my  house  very  thoroughly  indeed  that  night  to  get  evidence  of 
his  complicity  in  the  murder  of  policemen.  They  did  their  best 
to  manufacture  it  beforehand.  And  I  would  like  to  emphasize 
to  you  how  we  have  to  keep  our  wits  sharpened  to  counter  such 
propaganda.  All  through  my  brother's  hunger  strike,  we  have  had 
to  keep,  as  it  were,  two  sides  of  us  alive:  we  have  had  the  per- 
sonal sorrow,  on  which  I  am  not  going  to  touch, — I  don't  want  to 


mention  that;  we  have  also  had  to  fight  day  and  night  the  Eng- 
lish propaganda  that  was  carried  on  to  discredit  him  with  the  world. 
And  I  want,  if  you  will  have  patience  with  me,  to  stress  that  in 


He  was  arrested  on  the  twelfth  of  August,  and  kept  in  Cork 
jail.  My  sister-in-law  told  you  that  I  went  down  to  see  her  on 
Saturday.  I  saw  him  in  Cork  jail  that  morning,  and  that  was 
the  first  intimation  I  had  that  he  was  hunger  striking.  He  looked 
very  bad  then,  although  it  was  only  his  third  day.  On  Saturday  I 
went  down  to  see  her  and  to  look  after  the  baby.  She  decided  she 
would  not  go  until  Monday  morning.  On  Sunday  morning  I  was 
awakened  by  a  great  friend  of  ours,  a  gentleman  who  lives  across 
the  water,  who  came  down  to  tell  us  that  he  had  information 
that  my  brother  was  to  be  court-martialed  at  eleven  o'clock  the 
next  morning.  That  information  was  not  given  to  us  officially, 
but  we  found  it  out.  She  decided  to  go  up  at  once,  and  I  stayed 


Therefore  I  was  not  present  at  the  trial,  but  I  know  that  the 
speech  he  made  at  the  trial  stressed  some  points  that  were  not 
brought  out  in  the  speech  she  read  to  you.  He  used  practically 
the  same  terms  that  he  used  in  his  speech  upon  his  inauguration 
as  Lord  Mayor.  But  he  said  that  he  was  really  the  person  who 
should  be  trying  them,  and  he  told  those  military  officers,  with 
respect  to  the  charge  that  they  emphasized  particularly,  the  charge 
that  he  had  a  police  code,  that  he  was  the  only  person  in  that 
city  who  should  have  a  police  code,  and  anybody  else  in  that  city 
who  had  a  police  code  without  his  permission  was  guilty  of  an  il- 
legal act,  and  it  was  his  business  to  try  them.  They  said  they 
found  the  code  in  his  desk.  That  was  a  lie.  That  was  an  absolute 
lie.  The  code  at  the  time  of  his  arrest  was  in  the  possession  of 
somebody  else.  That  person  did  not  have  time  to  destroy  it,  and  he 
stuck  it  in  a  place  that  he  thought  might  escape  the  attention  of 
the  military.  It  did  not  escape  their  attention.  They  captured  it. 
They  captured  it  outside  the  city  hall  in  the  yard.  They  did  not 
capture  it  in  the  city  hall  at  all.  But  they  took  it  at  once  and 
put  it  in  the  Lord  Mayor's  desk,  and  said  they  found  it  there. 
That  was  a  lie.  However,  that  made  no  difference.  The  attitude 
my  brother  took  was,  as  he  said,  "I  accept  absolute  responsibility 
for  that  code,  and  I  am  the  only  one  in  the  city  who  is  entitled 
to  have  it." 


The  other  two  charges,  that  he  had  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publican Army  and  that  he  was  the  presiding  officer  of  a  body 
that  had  sworn  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann,  were  due,  of  course,  to 
the  English  attitude  toward  their  authority  in  Ireland.  And  their 
right  to  assume  that  authority  he  denied  absolutely. 


I  do  not  think  there  is  anything  more  I  want  to  say  about  that, 
but  I  want  to  read  one  sentence  of  his  speech  upon  his  inaugura- 
tion as  Lord  Mayor.  He  says,  in  speaking  of  his  comrade  who  had 
just  been  murdered'  (he  speaks  of  a  meeting  that  was  held  im- 
mediately after  the  election),  "I  would  recall  some  of  my  words  at 
our  first  meeting  after  his  election  as  Lord  Mayor.  I  realize  that 
most  of  us  in  the  minority  here  were  loyal  citizens  of  the  Irish 
Republic."  I  By  the  minority  he  means  those  who  are  Unionists 
and  Nationalists  in  the  Corporation. )  "I  realize,"  he  said,  "that 
most  of  us  in  the  minority  here  were  loyal  citizens  of  the 
Irish  Republic,  if  the  English  occupation  did  not  threaten  your 
lives.  But  you  lacked  the  spirit  and  the  hope  to  join  with  us 
in  the  fight  to  complete  the  work  already  so  well  begun."  That 
is  our  attitude  toward  the  minority.  We  know  they  would  be 
with  us  if  some  of  them  were  not  so  much  afraid  of  their  lives. 
We  also  know  that  many  Unionists  are  now  coming  over  to  us 
in  large  numbers.  There  is  an  old  saying  that  nothing  succeeds 
like  success.  And  we  have  been  so  successful  that  those  who 
used  to  be  Unionists  are  now  coming  over  to  support  the  Republic. 

And  another  sentence  he  said:  "The  shining  hope  of  our  time  is 
that  the  great  majority  of  our  people  is  now  strong  in  that  faith." 
(The  faith  that  will  endure  to  the  end  is  what  he  means.)  "To 
you,  gentlemen  of  the  minority,  I  would  address  a  word.  You 
seem  to  be  hypnotized  by  that  evil — the  usurpation  which  calls 
itself  self-government.  I  ask  you  again  to  take  courage  and  hope. 
It  seems  to  me,  and  I  do  not  say  it  to  hurt  you,  that  you  have  a 
very  lively  faith  in  the  power  of  the  devil,  and  very  little  faith 
in  the  power  of  God." 

I  quote  these  few  sentences  to  show  you  what  our  spirit  is 
toward  the  dwindling  minority  who  uphold  British  rule  in  Ireland. 
They  do  not  uphold  it  because  they  love  it.  They  uphold  it  be- 
cause they  fear  it.     But  they  will  learn  what  we  have  long  known, 

JHis    friend   and   predecessor,    Lord    Mayor   Thomas    MacCurtain.      See 


that  the  only  thing  one  should  be  afraid  of  in  Ireland  today  is  to 
be  afraid  of  being  afraid. 


When  my  sister-in-law  came  up  to  Cork  on  Monday,  after  my 
brother's  arrest,  I  remained  in  Youghal.  I  did  not  know  then 
she  was  coming  down,  but  I  got  a  telegram  to  catch  the  four 
o'clock  train  up  to  Cork.  The  gentleman  who  brought  the  tele- 
gram also  offered  to  stay  there  and  look  after  baby  until  my  sister- 
in-law  got  back.  She  met  me  at  the  station  and  told  me  that  the 
trial  was  over,  and  probably  he  would  be  deported  that  night,  and 
that  I  had  better  go  up  at  once,  and  that  a  special  permission 
had  been  given  for  me  to  see  him.  I  went  up  to  Cork,  arriving 
there  about  six  o'clock.  My  sister  had  by  that  time  received  the 
letter  from  General  Strickland,  commander  of  the  British  forces, 
that  I  and  my  younger  brother,  who  had  not  seen  him  during  the 
day,  might  see  my  brother.  We  went  up  to  the  barracks.  He  was 
sitting  in  one  of  the  large  rooms, — evidently  an  officer's  bedroom, 
and  he  was  sitting  there  wrapped  up  in  a  big  coat  and  evidently 
feeling  very  badly.  I  asked  when  he  was  to  be  sent  away.  The 
military  officers  said  they  did  not  know.  Of  course,  they  knew, 
but  they  had  orders  not  to  tell  us.  I  said,  "This  thing  is  rather 
important  to  us.  My  brother  has  only  the  clothes  he  has  on.  If 
you  are  going  to  send  him  out  of  the  country,  we  want  to  send 
him  a  suitcase  with  clothes."  They  said  they  did  not  know;  they 
could  not  tell  us;  but  they  thought  it  would  be  wiser  to  send  him 
the  suitcase.  My  sister  went  down  there  then  and  had  a  suitcase  of 
clothes  and  some  things  sent  him.  We  tried  hard  to  find  where  he 
was  to  be  sent,  but  we  could  not  find  out.  But  the  officers  there 
tried  to  be  as  nice  to  us  as  they  could,  and  we  stayed  there  until 
half-past  eight  o'clock.  That  meant  we  could  not  see  him  again. 
So  we  stayed  there  until  half-past  eight  and  then  we  went  away. 

The  next  thing  was,  as  I  told  you,  that  at  midnight  the  military 
searched  our  house,  and  I  think  they  got  very  tired  of  it  before 
long,  because  our  house  happens  to  be  a  school,  and  all  the  docu- 
ments of  the  school  for  the  past  four  years  were  there,  and  I  told 
them  they  had  better  take  up  their  lodgings  there  for  a  fortnight 
if  they  expected  to  search  all  these  things.  They  searched  all  the 
correspondence,  however,  but  they  did  not  find  the  letter  that  I 
had  received  that  evening  and  had  burned.  That  letter,  of  course, 
was  sent  by  the  British  secret  service  department. 



On  Friday  we  learned  that  he  was  at  the  miltary  barracks,  but 
we  did  not  know  what  they  were  going  to  do  with  him.  On  Sat- 
urday he  was  sent  to  the  Cork  jail.  On  Tuesday  he  was  sent  over 
to  England.  I  am  going  to  tell  you  he  did  not  go  in  a  submarine, 
but  in  a  British  destroyer.  My  sister-in-law  said  a  submarine.  I 
am  going  to  correct  it,  because  if  I  did  not  mention  that  it  was 
a  destroyer  and  not  a  submarine,  you  would  have  all  the  pro- 
British  papers  in  Britain  and  America  crying  out — they  would  take 
that  one  slip  and  would  say  that  it  was  all  a  lie — that  every  word 
of  the  statement  we  have  given  here  is  a  lie.  That  is  why  I  want 
to  be  absolutely  exact.  That  is  why  I  want  to  make  this  small 
correction,  because  from  one  small  slip  that  is  a  small  inaccuracy, 
they  would  seek  to  discredit  everything  that  we  have  said  here,  and 
would  try  to  destroy  what  might  be  very  important  for  Ireland. 
It  was  not  a  submarine.  It  was  a  British  destroyer.  But,  as  Arch- 
bishop Mannix  has  told  us,  they  are  not  very  comfortable  things  to 
travel  on.  They  are  not  ocean  liners  meant  for  the  comfort  and 
convenience  of  their  passengers.  They  are  designed  for  the  maxi- 
mum of  use. 

Chairman  Howe:  Miss  MacSwiney,  if  you  will,  just  stop  there. 
We  are  required  to  give  up  this  hall  at  one  o'clock,  unfortunately. 
The  meeting  will  be  adjourned,  and  the  hearings  will  be  con- 
tinued at  two-fifteen  this  afternoon  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette. 

(Adjournment  12:57  P.  M.) 

Hotel  LaFayette,  2:28  P.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:    The  hearings  will  begin  now. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Will  you  please  continue,  Miss  MacSwiney? 
I  think  you  were  telling  us  about  taking  your  brother  over  to 
England  in  a  destroyer. 


The  Witness :  That  was  on  the  night  of  Monday  or  Tuesday  morn- 
ing. I  think  he  left  Cork  about  four  o'clock  Tuesday  morning. 
At  least  he  was  taken  away  during  the  curfew  hours.  And  then 
we  wired  the  authorities  to  know  where  he  was,  and  we  did  not 
get  any  information.  Meanwhile  we  wired  friends  in  England 
to  learn  where  he  was.  Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien  put  his  machinery  to 
work  to  know  where  he   was.     And  he  wired  us   that  he  was   at 


Brixton.  That  was  Thursday  morning.  The  authorities  also  found 
out  that  he  was  over  at  Brixton.  But  I  was  half-way  over  when 
they  wired.  I  left  Cork  immediately  and  arrived  in  London  Fri- 
day morning,  the  twentieth  of  August,  and  I  saw  my  brother  that 
day.  My  sister-in-law  arrived  Saturday,  and  it  was  arranged  that 
as  soon  as  the  situation  got  so  dangerous  that  my  brother  was  on 
the  point  of  death,  that  I  should  send  word  to  my  sister  and 
younger  brother  to  come  at  once.  We  sent  telegrams  regularly 
twice  a  day  home,  and  also  telegrams  were  sent  to  the  City  Hall 
to  tell  how  he  was.  When  I  saw  my  brother  then  on  Friday,  the 
twentieth,  I  did  not  think  he  could  live  a  week.  Dr.  Higson,  the 
doctor  of  the  prison  who  was  then  in  charge,  told  me  he  would 
give  me  word  when  my  brother  was  at  the  point  of  death.  He 
told  me  he  would  send  me  word  in  time  to  advise  my  sister.  On 
the  following  Tuesday  he  had  a  very  bad  time,  and  he  was  so 
seriously  ill  that  I  did  not  wait  any  longer,  but  wired  my  brother 
and  sister  to  come,  too,  and  not  wait  any  longer.  When  they  did 
come  he  collapsed  quite.  It  was  a  very  bad  time.  As  you  were 
told  in  the  beginning,  about  the  tenth  day  is  a  very  bad  time. 

Then  he  seemed  to  remain  stationary.  Then  when  it  was  about 
half  over  he  got  very  great  pains,  a  kind  of  neuritis.  And  then 
at  the  end  time,  there  was  nothing  but  very  great  weakness.  You 
can  understand  what  his  sufferings  were,  and  therefore  I  do  not 
want  to  linger  on  that  point. 


I  want  to  speak  of  the  English  anti-Irish  propaganda  on  the 
whole  situation.  We  were  allowed,  as  I  said  this  morning,  un- 
limited access  to  my  brother,  even  to  the  extent  of  allowing  my 
youngest  brother  to  remain  in  the  prison  all  night  long.  That 
seemed  very  kind,  but  I  believe  it  was  done  not  so  much  to  be  kind 
to  us  as  to  break  my  brother  down.  England,  from  the  point 
of  view  of  getting  a  victim,  got  a  very  bad  one  in  the  case  of  my 
brother.  The  doctors  were  obliged  to  report  that  forcible  feeding 
would  not  do  in  his  case.  They  sometimes  try  forcible  feeding  so 
the  prisoner  will  not  starve  himself  to  death.  Forcible  feeding  in 
my  brother's  case  would  only  have  accelerated  his  death.  On  ac- 
count of  an  attack  of  pleurisy  in  his  infancy  he  had  a  weak  spot 
in  his  lungs,  and  therefore  forcible  feeding  would  only  have 
hastened  his  death. 

The   second    mistake    England    made    was    the   bringing    of   him 


from  Cork  to  London.  They  dare  not  forcibly  feed  a  man  in  Cork 
now,  but  they  thought  they  could  do  it  in  London.  If  they  had 
kept  him  in  Cork  I  am  quite  sure  they  would  have  kept  the  knowl- 
edge of  what  was  going  on  from  the  world;  and  probably  you 
would  never  have  heard  of  it,  and  we  would  not  have  received  your 
invitation  to  come  and  testify  about  the  wrongs  of  Ireland.  By 
taking  him  to  London,  he  was  in  the  spot  where  newspaper  re- 
porters from  all  quarters  of  the  world  are.  And  the  result  was 
that  the  reasons  of  that  hunger  strike  were  heralded  all  over  the 
world,  and  did  more  good  for  Ireland  than  anything  that  has 
happened  for  a  hundred  and  fifty  years.  It  did  far  more  good 
for  Ireland  than  Easter  Week  did,  for  this  reason :  many  people 
said  it  was  not  an  opportune  time  for  us  to  strike  at  England. 
We  were  stabbing  England  in  the  back,  we  were  told.  France 
was  very  angry  with  us,  and  France  has  always  been  a  friend  of 
ours.  And  France  to  this  day  has  not  forgiven  us.  We  are  very 
sorrv,  for  France  has  always  been  a  friend  of  ours,  but  we  cannot 
help  it.  France  would  take  care  of  herself  in  the  same  way.  That 
is  one  reason  why  Easter  week  did  not  help  us  so  much  with  the 
outside  world.  It  was  not  so  good  a  propaganda  for  us  as  my 
brother's  death  was. 

And  then  again,  it  would  not  have  done  so  much  good  for  Ire- 
land if  they  had  not  taken  him  to  London  and  his  family  had 
not  moved  over  there  and  settled  there  with  him.  England  was 
very  much  surprised  at  the  great  wave  of  sympathy  beginning  to 
go  throughout  the  whole  world,  and  then  she  began  to  try  to 
counter  that  propaganda  in  every  way  she  could.  The  papers  be- 
gan to  say  that  the  doctors  were  feeding  him;  that  they  were  giv- 
ing him  proteids  in  his  medicine.  I  called  the  doctors'  attention 
to  it.  and  they  pooh-poohed  it  and  said,  "Who  cares  what  the  news- 
papers say?  Who  pays  any  attention  to  it?"  Those  are  the  words 
of  the  English  doctors,  gentlemen  of  the  press,  and  not  mine. 



When  we  arrived  there  the  only  doctor  in  charge  was  Dr.  Hig- 
son,  the  second  doctor.  A  little  later  Dr.  Griffiths,  the  senior  doc- 
tor, came  on.  A  little  later  on  the  junior  doctor  came  on,  and  our 
little  contact  with  him  showed  him  the  worst  of  the  three.  Dr. 
Griffiths  was  a  very  capable  man,  and  the  willing  tool — I  say  it 
deliberately — the  willing  tool  of  the  Home  Office  in  everything  they 
did.     Dr.  Higson  was  a  very  humane  man.  whose  attitude  showed 


that  he  sympathized  with  my  brother,  but  he  was  helpless.  One 
day  in  talking  with  him  and  he  was  pointing  out  his  helplessness, 
I  told  him  one  position  he  might  take,  although  I  knew  he  would 
not.  He  could  have  come  out  and  condemned  his  government  and 
resigned  his  position  for  its  inhumanity.  Of  course  he  would 
not  do  it.  That  was  asking  an  Englishman  to  be  heroic.  Of  Dr. 
Higson  I  have  nothing  to  say  but  good.  He  made  our  time  at 
Brixton  as  comfortable  as  he  could,  and  I  do  not  blame  him  for 
anything  that  happened.  His  only  fault  was  that  his  courage  was 
not  equal  to  his  heart. 

The  third  doctor  I  have  nothing  to  say  about.  I  had  very  little 
conversation  with  him.  The  only  real  question  I  think  I  ever 
put  to  him  was  on  the  day  when  my  sister  and  I  were  locked 
out  of  the  prison,  and  the  Home  Office  said  it  was  by  the  doctor's 
orders.  I  spoke  to  each  doctor  individually.  I  said,  "Doctor,  the 
Home  Office  says  that  the  doctors  are  responsible  for  our  being 
denied  permission  to  see  my  brother,"  and  I  asked  him,  "Are  you 
the  responsible  one?"  And  he  answered,  "Am  I?  Perhaps."  That 
was  all,  but  it  was  given  with  a  sneer  and  a  toss  of  the  head  that 
showed  him  to  be  the  most  contemptible  creature  on  the  face  of 
the  earth. 


I  want  to  deal  now  with  propaganda.  I  asked  the  doctors  to 
make  a  statement  that  they  were  not  putting  food  in  my  brother's 
medicine,  and  they  refused.  That  was  getting  such  world-wide 
publicity — the  newspaper  reporters  from  all  over  the  world  were 
coming  to  us  to  know  if  that  was  possible,  and  the  belief  was 
getting  so  general  that  it  was  being  done  that  we  had  to  counter- 
act it  somehow. 

I  am  going  to  give  you  now  a  piece  of  information  that  is  given 
for  the  first  time  to  anybody.  We  stole  some  of  the  medicine.  We 
abstracted  a  dose  of  the  medicine  from  under  the  very  eyes  of  the 
jailer,  and  we  had  it  analyzed.  The  analysis  proved  that  there 
was  absolutely  nothing  in  the  medicine  but  just  what  the  doctors 
had  told  us  it  was, — a  purgative  medicine  to  keep  the  body  func- 
tioning in  an  orderly  way  and  to  act  simply  as  any  ordinary 
medicine.  There  was  absolutely  no  trace  of  food.  The  analysis 
was  given.  There  was  only  one  thing  in  the  analysis  that  seemed 
to   puzzle  the   analyst.     That  was   that  he   detected   the   traces   of 


alcohol,  as  if  there  had  been  perfume  in  the  bottle.  That  was 
exactly  what  it  was.  It  was  a  small  eau-de-cologne  bottle  in  which 
we  took  the  sample  of  medicine  from  the  prison.  This  is  the  first 
time  that  this  is  given  to  anybody,  even  to  our  own  intimate  friends. 
Only  my  brother  knew  of  it,  and  my  sister  and  myself.  For  a 
long  time  even  my  sister-in-law  did  not  know  about  it,  because 
we  wanted  to  keep  it  very  secret.  Now,  you  will  ask,  if  it  was  so 
secret  as  all  that,  what  use  was  it  to  us?  As  it  was,  we  could  not 
let  it  be  known  that  we  had  analyzed  the  medicine,  or  we  would 
have  been  all  turned  out  of  the  prison.  So  having  satisfied  our- 
selves that  they  were  not  playing  any  tricks,  we  set  about  satis- 
fying the  public.  We  got  the  most  eminent  doctor  that  we  could. 
We  asked  permission  from  the  Home  Office  to  have  a  physician  of 
our  own  go  in  and  see  my  brother.  And  we  got  that  specialist  to 
go  in  and  see  him.  We  did  not  tell  him  anything  about  that 
analysis,  needless  to  say.  We  told  him  to  examine  the  medicine, 
that  we  wanted  to  be  satisfied  that  the  doctors  were  not  putting 
proteids  in  the  medicine  they  were  giving  my  brother.  We  asked 
that  doctor  to  go  there  for  another  reason.  There  was  a  rumor 
that  my  brother,  being  on  the  point  of  death,  was  to  be  moved  to 
a  nursing  home;  that  the  authorities  were  afraid  to  have  him  die 
in  the  prison,  and  wanted  him  to  be  moved  outside.  We  wanted 
independent  medical  testimony  that  he  was  not  able  to  be  moved. 
They  gave  us  that  permission.  I  think  their  idea  was  that  they 
wanted  to  represent  to  the  outside  world  that  they  wished  to  be 
as  nice  as  they  possibly  could  to  us  and  they  did  not  want  to  refuse 
us  anything  that  they  could  possibly  grant.  Our  purpose  in  hav- 
ing the  doctor  was  to  make  a  public  statement  that  my  brother 
was  not  getting  any  food  in  his  medicine.  We  knew  from  the 
analysis,  but  we  wanted  a  specialist  to  make  the  statement.  The 
doctor  making  the  examination  was  very  nervous  indeed  when  he 
went  in,  but  on  coming  out  the  first  thing  that  he  said  to  all  of  us 
was,  "The  Lord  Mayor  does  not  want  to  die.  He  has  no  intention 
of  committing  suicide."  Of  course  we  knew  he  did  not  want  to 
die.  What  he  wanted  was  freedom.  The  doctor  came  away  from 
his  interview  with  my  brother  evidently  with  a  very  high  opinion 
of  his  character  and  principles.  And  I  told  him  straight  out  that 
we  wanted  the  assurance  that  the  doctors  were  not  feeding  him 
secretly,  and  he  gave  us  that  assurance  and  said  we  might  trust  the 
doctors  because  they  were  all  honorable  men.  And,  of  course,  we 
had  attained  our  object  as  far  as  the  newspapers  were  concerned; 
and  from  that  day  on  there  was  not  a  hint  in  any  of  the  English 
papers  that  the  doctors  were  feeding  him  secretly. 



That  disposed  of  that,  but  they  next  said  that  his  relatives  were 
feeding  him  secretly.  Of  course,  they  could  not  say  openly  that 
we  were  doing  so.  They  said — of  course,  even  the  doctors  said, 
'"The  food  is  always  there,  and  he  can  eat  at  any  time."  And  the 
curious  thing  was  that  they  changed  the  food  to  meet  his  condi- 
tion. At  first  there  was  chicken  and  eggs  and  the  like.  And  as 
he  got  weaker  afterwards  they  brought  him  chicken  broth,  meat 
essence,  milk  with  brandy,  and  the  things  he  would  naturally  get 
if  he  would  take  food.  And  we  were  invited  to  give  them  to  him. 
Then  began  the  insinuations  in  the  papers  that  we  were  giving  him 
food  secretly.  We  never  gave  him  food,  but  we  were  giving  him 
water  whenever  he  asked  for  it.  Sometimes  he  would  say,  "Give 
me  some  water,"  and  we  would  go  and  get  him  some  water,  even 
when  the  nurse  was  in  the  room.  But  from  the  day  that  this 
propaganda  began  that  we  were  feeding  him  secretly,  we  would 
not  give  him  the  water;  we  would  let  the  nurse  get  him  the  water. 
We  had  to  watch  like  lynxes  from  beginning  to  end.  Every  step 
held  a  trap  for  us.  And  all  that  was  to  counteract  the  deed 
that  was  creating  so  much  sympathy  for  Ireland  all  over  the  world. 



And  then  there  were  the  constant  appeals  not  to  let  such  a 
good  man  die,  that  his  life  would  be  so  much  better  for  Ireland 
than  his  death.  Some .  of  these  appeals  pretended  to  be  from 
friends  of  Ireland  who  told  us  what  a  great  mistake  we  were 
making  in  letting  him  starve  to  death;  others  were  from  people  who 
abused  us  shamefully  for  letting  him  die.  Such  was  their  propa- 
ganda,— which  I  know  you  will  not  ask  me  to  elaborate.  My 
brother  was  told  that  it  was  hard  for  his  wife  and  sisters  to  see 
him  suffer,  and  for  their  sake  would  he  not  take  a  little  food.  And 
we  were  told  that  it  was  terrible  to  have  such  a  noble  man  die, 
and  would  not  we  coax  him  to  have  a  little  food.  One  day,  in 
answer  to  the  pleas  like  that  that  the  doctors  made  to  him,  he  said, 
"Doctors,  my  wife  and  sisters  are  with  me  in  this.  They  would  not 
ask  me  to  stop.  They  would  think  me  a  coward  if  I  did."  That 
was  verily  the  one  great  consolation  that  he  had, — that  we  were 
whole-heartedly  with  him  in  his  fight.  But  the  doctor  came  in  the 
afternoon  and  suggested  to  us  in  another  way :  that  my  brother  was 

— ~  317 

anxious  to  discontinue,  only  he  was  afraid  to  do  it,  thinking  that 
we  would  think  him  a  coward  and  give  him  a  hard  time  after- 
wards. I  am  telling  that  only  to  show  you  the  insidious  way  that 
they  went  about  trying  to  discredit  us,  and  to  give  you  another 
instance  why  I  corrected  that  small  slip  this  morning  where  a  sub- 
marine was  mentioned  instead  of  a  torpedo  destroyer.  Of  course, 
my  brother  did  not  say  that.  He  told  us  afterwards  what  he  had 
said.  And  he  told  us  over  and  over  again  how  much  we  strength- 
ened and  supported  him  because  we  were  with  him.  And  he  often 
said  to  us  individually  that  he  knew  that  our  part  in  the  suffering 
was  ever  so  much  harder  than  his,  because  it  is  always  harder  to 
see  one  you  love  suffer  than  to  suffer  yourself.  None  of  you  have 
ever  had  to  endure  that  sort  of  thing, — that  incessant  torture  of 
appeal  day  after  day.  I  suppose  the  doctors  thought  they  were 
doing  their  duty.  Most  of  these  appeals  were  made  to  me  and  my 
sister, — chieflly  to  me.  They  had  the  grace  to  leave  his  wife  alone. 
I  think  her  youth  and  her  grace  appealed  to  them.  Perhaps  they 
thought  we  were  not  feeling  it  so  much.  But  we  got  the  brunt  of 
it  to  bear,  and  it  was  not  easy. 


Then  there  came  with  all  that  shoals  and  shoals  of  anonymous 
letters.  I  suppose  we  have  had  thousands  of  anonymous  letters 
from  all  parts  of  the  country  abusing  us.  A  great  many  of  them 
came  from  America,  but  then  they  did  not  come  from  Americans, 
but  from  the  English  propagandists  in  America.  But  we,  of 
course,  cast  all  these  aside.  We  did  not  read  them.  One  day  an 
anonymous  correspondent  sent  us  a  phial  of  poison  to  give  to  him 
and  "finish  him  off  quickly,  and  not  make  so  much  fuss  about 
it,  if  we  wanted  him  dead."  I'm  telling  you  that  particular  inci- 
dent for  this  reason:  religious  friends  had  been  sending  him 
religious  emblems  from  all  parts  of  the  world,  and  we  had  been 
getting  roses  and  flowers  and  things  like  that  in  little  parcels. 
And  up  to  that  time  we  had  been  taking  them  upstairs  and  open- 
ing them  at  his  bedside.  The  day  this  came  we  had  taken  this 
little  parcel  up  and  opened  it  and  glanced  at  it  before  we  showed 
it  to  him,  and  my  sister,  who  had  it  in  her  hand,  tried  to  hide  it 
away.  But  he  noticed  it  and  wanted  to  know  what  it  was.  It  was 
impossible  to  hide  it,  so  we  showed  it  to  him.  And  he  laughed 
and  said,  "You  surely  do  not  think  I  would  mind  a  thing  like 
that.'1  All  that  sort  of  thing  went  on.  We  did  not  read  anony- 
mous letters,  yet  still  they  had  their  share  in  the  things  we  had 
to  endure  while  we  were  over  there. 



Another  thing  I  would  like  you  to  know  about  the  English  at- 
titude toward  us  is  that  we  found  out  that  they  were  counting  very 
strongly  on  the  effect  my  brother's  death  might  have  on  the  Irish 
Volunteers.  They  had  tried  in  every  way  to  provoke  the  Volun- 
teers until  they  would  come  out  in  the  open  so  that  they  might 
crush  them,  but  they  had  not  succeeded  in  doing  it.  They  had 
come  to  the  conclusion  that  they  could  not  defeat  the  Volun- 
teer organization  in  that  way,  but  they  still  thought  that  if  they 
could  get  hold  of  the  leaders  and  get  them  killed  in  large  num- 
bers, they  would  be  able  to  conquer  the  rest  of  the  country.  They 
counted,  I  think,  that  my  brother's  death  would  create  such  an 
uproar  in  Cork  that  the  Republican  soldiers  there  would  lose  their 
heads,  and  their  leaders  would,  too.  You  see,  my  brother  was  a 
very  cool  and  very  calm  man.  He  was  not  one  of  the  hot-headed, 
rash  young  people  that  the  English  Government  talks  about  such 
a  lot.  And  they  thought  that  because  he  was  so  much  loved  and 
so  calm,  that  his  death  would  enrage  the  Volunteers  and  they  would 
come  out  in  the  open,  and  the  Volunteers  could  then  he  shot  down 
lawfully,  as  it  were.  The  rumors  were  brought  to  me  from  Ireland 
that  the  Volunteers  were  in  a  very  great  state  of  tension.  And 
some  people  whose  advice  could  not  be  set  aside,  some  people  who 
were  not  scaremongers,  were  very  much  concerned  lest  his  death 
would  cause  just  such  an  uprising  in  Cork  as  would  give  the  Eng- 
lish their  chance.  And  so,  when  the  opportunity  came,  I  said  to 
my  brother,  "Do  you  think  the  Volunteers  will  be  out  of  hand? 
Would  you  not  like  to  send  them  a  message?"  His  answer  to  me 
was,  "Certainly  not.  The  Volunteers  are  soldiers  who  are  ef- 
fectively officered,  and  it  would  be  an  insult  to  both  officers  and 
men  if  I  sent  them  such  a  message.  They  are  a  disciplined  body, 
and  they  know  their  duty  and  they  will  do  it."  When  the  end  was 
very  close  and  the  tension  was  very  high,  I  sent  a  message  to  Cork 
myself,  and  this  message  was  that  I  had  heard  these  reports  and 
had  mentioned  them  to  my  brother  and  asked  him  if  he  would 
like  to  send  a  message;  and  I  gave  them  his  message  just  as  I 
got  it.  I  think  it  was  the  most  effective  message  that  could  have 
been  sent. 



While  we  were  all  perfectly  satisfied  that  niv  brother  should 
carry  his  sacrifice  to  the  end,  and  while  we  did  not  begrudge 
him  to  Ireland,  we  felt  it  our  duty  to  do  every  single  thing  we 
could  to  save  him,  everything  we  could  consistently  do  with  his 
principles  and  with  ours.  We  would  not  be  guilty  of  any  com- 
promise any  more  than  he  would.  But  short  of  a  compromise,  we 
felt  bound  to  try  to  save  his  life  and  make  the  English  release 
him.  I  went  the  day  after  my  arrival  in  London  to  the  Home 
Office.  That  was  on  Friday — the  first  day  I  arrived  in  London.  1 
went  to  the  Home  Office.  I  saw  some  of  the  under  secretaries.  They 
told  me  that  the  Government's  decision  was  unalterable;  that  my 
brother's  death  would  be  on  his  own  head;  and  that  they  would 
not  release  him  on  account  of  the  hunger  strike.  I  asked  to  see 
Mr.  Shortt,  and  I  was  told  that  Mr.  Shorlt  was  busy.  I  wrote  to 
Mr.  Shortt  and  told  him  that  this  was  a  very  serious  matter,  and 
asked  for  an  interview.  He  wrote  back  that  no  good  purpose  was 
to  be  served  by  an  interview,  since  the  government's  decision  was 
unalterable.  Lloyd  George  was  then  in  Lucerne  or  Geneva,  Lucerne 
I  think,  and  I  asked  him  who  was  responsible  in  this  matter.  He 
sent  back  a  message,  which  probably  appeared  in  the  American 
papers  at  the  time,  which  was  a  deliberate  insult  to  a  woman  to 
whom  he  was  already  causing  as  much  suffering  as  was  at  all 
necessary.  He  said  that  he  had  received  my  appeal  on  behalf 
of  my  brother's  life.  (I  made  none.)  He  said  that  he  regretted 
that  my  brother  was  causing  such  suffering  to  his  family  by  his 
deliberate  suicide.  I  call  that  a  scoundrel's  answer,  a  scoundrel's 
insult.  I  wired  back  and  told  him  that  his  answer  was  an  insult; 
that  I  made  no  appeal  to  him,  but  I  wanted  to  know  on  whom  to 
place  the  responsibility  for  my  brother's  death.  He  accepted  that 
responsibility,  and  he  is  responsible  before  God  and  the  world 
for  that  murder.  For  no  law,  English  or  any  other  law,  justifies 
him  in  doing  what  he  did.  He  was  as  responsible  for  my  brother's 
death  as  he  was  when  he  was  declared  guilty  by  a  coroner's  jury 
of  the  City  of  Cork  for  the  death  of  my  brother's  predecessor,  Lord 
Mayor  MacCurtain.  The  Irish  people  know  where  to  put  the  re- 
sponsibility of  my  brother's  death,  and  it  is  no  use  for  Lloyd 
George  to  try  to  put  it  on  the  shoulders  of  any  individual  Black- 



I  found,  then,  that  the  Home  Office  was  quite  determined  to  let 
him  die,  and  I  was  quite  convinced  of  that  after  my  interview 
there.  The  English  press  was  quite  sympathetic.  Even  the  anti- 
Irish  press  said  it  was  a  mistake  to  let  my  brother  die.  And  the 
labor  people  were  passing  resolutions  about  the  matter.  I  told  my 
brother  one  day  that  the  labor  people  were  very  sympathetic,  and 
his  answer  was,  "If  English  labor  really  wanted  to  get  me  out,  they 
could  do  it  in  twenty-four  hours  if  they  liked." 

Then  I  went  to  interview  the  Council  of  Action.  The  Council 
of  Action — I  do  not  know  whether  you  know  of  it  or  not — was  a 
council  of  the  labor  people  formed  by  the  working  classes  to 
prevent  Poland  being  supplied  with  arms  to  fight  the  Russians. 
They  were  very  interested  in  the  crisis  between  Russia  and  Poland, 
but  the  injustice  that  was  being  done  at  their  own  door  did  not 
affect  them.  I  went  to  see  them  so  that  if  they  did  not  take  ac- 
tion, they  could  not  plead  ignorance  as  an  excuse.  So  I  told  them 
what  was  going  on.  They  were  very  sympathetic,  very,  and  there 
were  some  very  honest  men  among  them.  But  no  man  was  suf- 
ficiently courageous  to  take  action.  They  were  very  courageous 
about  Russia,  but  the  particular  thing  they  were  doing  about 
Russia  was  not  against  the  wishes  of  their  own  Government. 


There  was  a  big  labor  congress  held  this  summer  at  Ports- 
mouth. Some  of  our  friends  had  come  from  different  parts  of 
England,  and  they  said  that  the  feeling  was 'intense  about  letting 
my  brother  die.  And  they  said  that  if  the  Labor  Council  called 
a  strike,  that  strike  would  be  effective.  The  whole  Merthyr  di- 
vision and  the  whole  Newcastle  division  would  go  on  strike  and 
get  my  brother  released.  And  they  said  that  as  the  labor  congress 
was  meeting  in  Portsmouth,  that  I  should  go  down  there  and  try 
to  get  them  to  act.  The  labor  congress  represented  six  and  one- 
half  million  people;  and  if  the  labor  congress  could  be  got  to 
act,  that  even  the  government  would  be  forced  to  release  my 

I  went  down  to  Portsmouth  and  sent  in  my  card  to  the  chairman, 
Mr.  Thomas,  who  is  general  secretary  of  the  Railroad  Union,  I 
believe.     Mr.  Thomas  is  rather  like  Mr.  Lloyd  George,  I  am  told, 


in  character  and  action,  and  lie  has  acted  and  talked  very  much 
like  Mr.  George.  He  sent  out  word  that  the  congress  already  had 
passed  a  resolution  about  my  brother's  case,  and  nothing  more 
could  be  done.  I  sent  back  word  that  I  was  sorry,  but  I  wanted 
my  request  to  be  put  to  the  members  of  the  congress,  and  I 
would  take  their  answer.  He  sent  out  word  that  he  could  not  do  it. 
Meanwhile  I  got  word  that  the  standing  orders  committee  of  the 
Council  of  Action  was  meeting  upstairs,  and  that  the  standing 
orders  could  only  be  interfered  with  if  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee approved  of  it.  So  I  went  upstairs  for  an  interview  with 
the  standing  orders  committee.  They  were  all  intensely  sympa- 
thetic. Every  man  and  woman  I  talked  with  was  intensely  sym- 
pathetic. But  it  was  not  their  business.  They  were  not  respon- 
sible. That  was  their  attitude.  I  asked  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee to  be  allowed  to  speak  to  the  congress  for  five  minutes. 
They  said  it  could  not  be  done.  I  said  that  I  understood  that  in 
any  congress  in  a  matter  of  sufficient  importance  the  standing 
orders  could  be  set  aside  for  a  particular  case.  I  asked  them  if 
that  was  not  so,  and  they  said  yes,  but  in  this  case  it  could  not  be 
done.  I  asked  them  if  they  would  not  let  me  make  an  appeal  to 
the  representatives  of  six  and  a  half  million  people,  and  find 
out  if  they  would  let  my  brother  die  without  doing  anything  to 
stop  it.  They  were  very  reluctant  to  do  it.  They  were  equally 
reluctant  to  say  no.  And  so  they  sent  one  of  the  lady  members 
to  talk  to  me  and  convince  me  that  it  would  be  unwise.  I  said, 
"Unwise  for  whom?"  And  she  said  unwise  for  me.  And  I  said, 
"I  am  at  the  very  end,  and  no  action  they  could  take  would  be  un- 
wise for  me."  She  said  it  would  be  a  mistake.  I  wanted  to  get 
the  mistake  proved,  and  she  could  not  prove  it.  What  she  really 
meant  was  that  it  would  be  a  mistake  for  English  labor  people  to 
press  this  matter.  But  I  wanted  deeds,  not  words.  And  then 
finally  she  said  it  could  only  be  done  by  the  parliamentary  com- 
mittee. And  I  said,  "Does  the  parliamentary  committee  meet  to- 
day?" And  she  said  yes,  at  five  o'clock.  And  I  said,  "I  can 
get  a  train  back  to  London  later  than  that."  And  I  saw  a  great 
expression  of  relief  on  her  face.  And  I  asked  her  if  the  congress 
would  meet  after  that  time,  and  she  said  no.  And  I  said,  "I  can- 
not wait  that  long."  And  I  said,  "Are  the  parliamentary  commit- 
tee in  the  house  now?"  And  she  said  yes.  And  I  said,  "I  would 
like  to  see  them  now."  She  did  not  have  the  courage  to  say  no. 
And  so  they  sent  down  a  deputation  of  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee to  confer  with  the  members  of  the  parliamentary  committee 
on  the  platform,   including   Mr.   Thomas.      They   did   not  tell   me 


beforehand  that  they  were  going  to  do  that.  If  they  had  I  would 
have  known  perfectly  well  the  result.  But  they  sent  down  the 
deputation  before  I  was  informed  of  it.  And  they  came  back 
after  a  time  and  said  that  they  had  gone  down  and  they  had  pre- 
sented my  request  to  the  parliamentary  committee  that  was  on  the 
platform,  and  the  parliamentary  committee  had  said  that  it  was 
impossible  to  grant  my  request. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     Is  it  necessary  to  go  into  all  these  details? 

A.     Not  entirely,  but  perhaps  I  am  tiring  you? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  it  is  very  important  to  know  the  steps 
you  took  to  get  your  brother  released,  but  the  details  of  the  move- 
ment I  am  afraid  will  tire  you  out  to  give  in  detail. 

The  Witness:  The  only  reason  I  was  giving  those  details  was 
this:  because  they  were  a  very  good  example  of  the  kind  of  hypo- 
critical sympathy  that  we  met  with,  and  the  fact  that,  doing  the 
meanest  things  they  could  do,  that  our  enemies  tried  to  do  them 
as  if  they  wanted  to  do  everything  they  possibly  could  to  please 
us.  And  I  only  ask  your  permission  to  say  this:  I  found  out  by 
dint  of  questioning  that  my  request  was  conveyed  to  the  congress 
in  this  manner:  Mr.  Thomas  got  up  and  said  that  Miss  Mac- 
Swiney,  the  Lord  Mayor's  sister,  had  asked  to  speak  to  them,  and 
that  he  need  not  tell  the  congress  what  a  harrowing  time  that  lady 
had  been  through  for  the  past  month,  and  that  although  the  lady 
would  be  quite  willing  to  talk  to  them,  that  he  was  quite  sure 
that  they  would  not  ask  that  poor  harrowed  lady  to  speak  to  them 
that  day.  And  so  out  of  'sheer  sympathy  they  were  fooled  into 
denying  my  request.  And  so  I  turned  around  and  said,  "I  simply 
want  a  straight  answer  to  a  straight  question.  If  I  came  here  to 
speak,  was  it  not  because  I  wanted  to  come?"  I  only  give  you 
that  so  that  you  will  understand.  They  will  not  openly  deny 
what  is  fair  and  just,  but  they  will  try  to  escape  giving  a  definite 
no.  I  gave  that  as  an  example  of  the  evil  propaganda  that  we 
had  to  fight  for  the  whole  two  and  a  half  months  while  we  were 


And  now  I  come  to  our  own  particular  treatment.  On  the  Mon- 
day before  my  brother's  death,  exactly  a  week  before  he  died,  there 
was  a  consultation  of  doctors,  and  when  they  came  out  they  called 
me  aside  and  they  said  that  my  brother  had  developed  symptoms 
of  scurvy,  and  that  it  was  necessary  for  him  to  take  lime  juice,  but 
he  had  refused,  and  when  they  had  asked  him  he  said  that  he  only 
wanted  to  be  left  alone  and  to  die  in  peace.     And  the  doctor  said 


(this  was  the  special  doctor  who  came  to  see  him  once  a  week), 
"I  assure  you,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  your  brother  will  not  die  in 
peace  if  he  gets  scurvy.  He  will  die  with  the  most  terrible  tortures. 
And  you  had  better  urge  him  to  take  lime  juice  now."  And  I  told 
him  that  I  was  afraid  I  could  not.  And  then  he  continued  and  tried 
to  tell  me  what  a  terrible  death  dying  by  scurvy  was.  And  I  turned 
to  him  and  said,  "It  would  be  a  terrible  thing  to  die  with  tortures. 
The  matter  is  in  God's  hands,  and  we  can  only  ask  that  He  does  not 
let  him  suffer  too  much."  And  he  turned  to  me  and  said,  "God 
has  nothing  to  do  with  it.  The  case  is  in  our  hands — your  hands 
and  my  hands.  And  we  shall  see  that  he  will  have  to  take  lime 
juice."  I  said  that  I  would  not  urge  my  brother  to  take  lime  juice, 
and  that  was  all  there  was  about  it. 

There  were  a  couple  of  friends  from  Cork  who  came  to  see  him, 
and  he  teased  them  a  little  because  he  was  always  very  fond  of  tea, 
and  the  first  thing  he  always  said  was  to  ask  people  to  have  a  cup 
of  tea  with  him.  And  he  said  to  them  in  Irish,  "I  am  sorry  I  cannot 
offer  you  a  cup  of  tea."  And  they  said,  "Well,  never  mind,  we  will 
have  a  cup  of  tea  together  yet." 

The  next  morning  the  doctor  of  the  prison,  Dr.  Griffiths,  said  he 
was  going  to  force  him  to  take  lime  juice.  My  brother  sent  for  the 
governor  and  said  he  objected  to  being  forced  to  take  anything  in 
his  weak  state.  All  that  day,  Tuesday,  my  brother  was  very  excited, 
because  he  did  not  have  the  energy  to  resist — not  the  energy  of 
mind,  but  the  energy  of  body.  He  was  so  weak  he  could  not  resist 
physically  in  case  they  tried  to  feed  him  forcibly.  I  think  that  he 
felt  very  sad  that  after  seventy-four  days,  they  could  get  the  better 
of  him  and  make  him  take  something.  That  excited  him,  and  on 
Wednesday  morning  he  was  very  excited.  Early  in  the  morning, 
when  the  chaplain  visited  him,  he  was  very  excited. 


But  for  two  or  three  days  his  power  of  concentration  was  going 
from  him.  If  he  wanted  to  say  something,  he  would  say,  "You 
will  have  to  wait  a  minute  until  I  get  my  thoughts  clear."  On  that 
morning  when  my  sister  visited  him,  he  said  that  that  hammering 
was  the  doctor  coming  with  a  new  treatment.  I  will  not  go  over 
the  details  of  the  next  few  days.  I  want  to  come  to  Friday  morn- 
ing. During  the  period  of  delirium  he  recognized  me  three  times. 
He  recognized  my  other  sister  once.  After  Thursday  morning  he 
did  not  recognize  either  his  wife  or  my  brothers.  I  want  you  to 
think  of  that  when  his  people  were  not  allowed  in  the  prison.     On 


that  Wednesday,  the  day  of  his  first  delirium,  he  turned  to  her  and 
said,  "Muriel,  you  have  always  stuck  by  me."  And  a  little  after- 
wards he  turned  to  me  and  said,  "Min  (that  was  my  pet  name  at 
home),  you  are  always  loyal  to  Ireland.  Stay  by  me  and  see  what 
they  do  to  me."  That  showed  how  hard  his  mind  was  working 
and  how  he  was  trying  to  cling  to  his  consciousness. 

He  was  wildly  delirious  all  that  day,  and  at  night  time  he  was 
very  uneasy.  I  am  not  given  to  asking  favors  of  the  doctors,  but  I 
did  beg  them  very  hard  that  night  to  let  me  stay  in  the  prison  with 
my  brother.  I  think  it  was  through  Dr.  Higson — he  was  always 
very  humane — that  Father  Dominick  was  also  allowed  to  stay  in 
the  prison. 


Although  I  was  not  allowed  on  the  landing,  I  took  occasional 
peeps  to  see  what  was  going  on,  and  they  fed  him  all  through 
Wednesday  night.  They  did  not  begin  to  feed  him  until  Wednesday 
night,  when  he  was  quite  unconscious.  When  he  got  quiet  again 
he  was  conscious  for  a  few  minutes,  and  he  saw  me  in  the  room 
and  he  beckoned  me  and  said,  "I  am  afraid  they  have  tricked  me. 
Have  they?"  And  I  said,  "I  am  afraid  they  have."  And  he  said, 
"What  did  they  give  me?"  And  I  said,  "Meat  juice."  And  he 
said,  "Wait  a  minute.  We  will  have  to  keep  cool  now."  And  the 
nurse  came  over  and  said  I  was  not  to  talk  to  him.  And  then  he 
got  very  angry.  In  that  delirium  he  got  very  angry  a  couple  of 
times  before  he  entirely  lost  consciousness.  And  he  said,  "Go  away, 
nurse;  I  must  speak  to  my  sister."  And  the  nurse  said,  "You  must 
not  speak  to  her."  And  he  said,  "Go  away.  Go  away.  Go  away. 
Go  away."  Again  and  again  he  said  it.  And  then  he  lapsed  back 
into  unconsciousness.  And  I  said,  "Nurse,  please  go  away  for  a 
minute."  And  I  said  to  him,  "It  is  all  right  now."  And  he  said, 
"Wait  a  minute.  Wait  a  minute.  Wait.  Wait."  He  repeated 
"wait"  about  a  half  dozen  times.  He  was  clinging  on  to  his  con- 
sciousness as  long  as  he  could,  and  then  he  went  off  into  delirium 
again.    That  was  the  result  of  the  nurse's  interference. 


I  got  permission  to  stay  there  all  that  night.  The  next  thing  1 
want  to  call  your  attention  to  is  that  in  Friday  morning's  papers 
appeared  a  remark  by  the  Home  Secretary.    He  had  been  questioned 


in  the  House  of  Commons  by  an  honest  man,  Lieutenant-Commander 
Kenworthy,  about  forcibly  feeding  my  brother  in  his  weak  state. 
And  he  answered  that  the  Lord  Mayor  was  not  being  forcibly  fed, 
but  that  a  cup  was  held  to  his  lips  and  he  was  swallowing  it  volun- 
tarily. Now.  you  will  see  how  thoughtless  people  could  look  at 
that,  and  I  knew  it  was  more  propaganda.  And  that  morning  I 
tried  to  get  hold  of  Dr.  Higson — and  if  1  got  him  before  Dr. 
Griffiths  was  there,  I  usually  succeeded  in  getting  the  truth  out  of 
him  before  he  was  coached.  And  I  said  to  him,  "You  know  very 
well  that  that  action  of  swallowing  is  a  reflex  action;  that  it  is  not 
a  voluntary  action.*'  And  he  said  that  my  brother  was  quite  un- 
conscious that  he  was  swallowing,  and  that  it  was  a  reflex  action. 
And  I  said,  "Have  I  your  permission  to  quote  that  in  public?"  And 
he  said,  "Yes."  And  I  went  away  and  immediately  made  it  public. 
I  sent  it  to  the  House  of  Commons  and  to  Mr.  Shortt,  and  asked 
Mr.  Shortt  to  retract  the  lie  he  had  stated  the  night  before.  I  sent 
it  over  home,  and  I  also  gave  it  to  the  newspaper  correspondents 
of  the  whole  world,  that  statement  of  the  doctor's  with  his  name 
attached  to  it.  The  result  was  my  expulsion  from  the  prison.  1 
am  quite  sure  that  that  was  why  I  was  forbidden  to  enter  the  prison 
after  Friday. 

On  Saturday  morning,  as  it  unfortunately  happened,  I  was  the 
first  person  on  that  day.  We  used  to  change  about,  taking  turns. 
It  was  my  turn  to  visit  first  that  day.  I  arrived  at  the  prison  at 
half-past  eight.  My  brother  had  been  on  duty  all  night,  and  I  was 
to  relieve  him.  I  got  to  the  prison  gate — there  are  two  gates;  there 
is  a  large  wooden  gate,  and  then  about  ten  feet  inside  of  that  there 
is  a  big  iron  gate. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  so  that  there  will  not 
be  any  misapprehension  about  your  testimony,  you  said  that  that 
was  your  first  day  there? 

A.  No,  it  was  my  turn  to  pay  the  early  morning  visit  that  day. 
One  of  us  would  come  on  at  eight-thirty,  another  at  noon,  and 
another  at  night,  and  so  on.  This  morning  it  happened  to  be  my 
turn  to  go  on  first,  and  I  stepped  up  to  the  gate  and  started  to  go 
in.  And  the  warder  said,  "What  is  your  name,  please?"  It  was 
quite  extraordinary  to  be  asked  your  name  after  you  have  been 
going  there  every  day  for  over  two  months.  And  I  said,  "Mac- 
Swiney." And  he  said,  "Your  Christian  name,  please?"  And  1 
said,  "Miss  Mary  MacSwiney."  And  he  said,  "I  cannot  admit  you." 
And  I  said,  "On  whose  orders?"  And  he  said,  "On  the  governor's." 
And  I  said,  "May  I  see  the  governor?"  And  he  said,  "The  governor 
is  not  here."     And  he  ordered  me  to  step  outside  the  prison  gate. 


I  would  not  go,  and  stepped  into  the  waiting  room  there  and  stayed 
there.  As  the  officials  came  in  I  questioned  each  one  of  them  and 
asked  them  on  whose  orders  I  was  kept  from  seeing  my  brother. 
And  they  said,  "Home  Office  orders."  And  I  asked  them  if  it 
would  apply  to  anybody  but  myself,  and  they  said  no,  I  was  the 
only  one. 

In  that  day's  papers  there  was  a  statement  that  on  the  day  before 
there  was  a  moment  when  my  brother  had  recognized  my  sister, 
and  he  had  asked  her  what  we  were  all  here  for  and  what  we  were 
doing  in  London.  And  she  did  not  want  to  upset  that  moment  of 
consciousness,  and  she  simply  said,  "Nothing.  You  are  all  right." 
That  appeared  in  the  morning's  papers,  and  the  order  to  exclude 
her  came  at  one  o'clock  that  day.  The  order  to  exclude  me  came 
from  my  publishing  Dr.  Higson's  statement  that  my  brother  was  not 
voluntarily  swallowing.  And  she  was  expelled  because  my  brother 
recognized  her. 

They  all  tried  to  get  me  out  of  the  prison,  but  they  did  not  suc- 
ceed. They  did  not  use  force.  My  sister-in-law  came  along  then, 
and  she  could  get  through  the  gate,  but  was  only  allowed  to  see 
her  husband  for  a  few  minutes,  and  then  he  was  not  conscious. 


We  stayed  there  until  half-past  ten  that  night.  I  do  not  want  to 
stress  it,  but  I  had  had  breakfast  at  half-past  seven,  and  did  not 
have  any  food  until  twelve  that  night.  I  would  have  gone  on  a 
hunger  strike  of  my  own  and  stayed  in  that  waiting  room  if  they 
had  not  used  force  to  get  us  out.  At  ten  o'clock  the  deputy  governor 
came  along  and  said,  "Miss  MacSwiney,  it  is  time  to  lock  up." 
And  I  said,  "Very  well,  lock  up."  And  he  said,  "I  am  afraid  you 
must  go  out."  And  I  said,  "I  will  not  go  out  until  I  see  my 
brother."  And  he  said,  "You  must,  for  it  is  time  to  lock  up  the 
prison."  And  I  said,  "It  is  strange  to  be  locking  up  a  place  that 
is  always  locked  up."  And  I  said,  "If  you  will  let  me  see  my 
brother  for  five  minutes,  I  will  go  away,  but  not  before."  Then  he 
said,  "The  local  police  have  orders  to  put  you  out  by  force."  I 
said,  "Very  well ;  if  the  local  police — enough  of  them — come  in  and 
use  force  to  put  two  women  out,  they  can  do  so.  But  I  will  not 
go  voluntarily." 

I  can  only  tell  you  this:  they  started  in  at  ten  o'clock,  and  it  was 
five  minutes  to  eleven  before  they  got  us  out.  The  police  inspector 
came  and  tried  to  get  us  out  by  "moral  suasion,"  and  I  said  there 
was  no  morality  about  anything  they  were  doing.     He  argued  with 


my  sister  and  did  no  better.  They  finally  technically  arrested  us. 
That  is,  in  England  if  a  policeman  puts  his  hand  on  your  shoulder 
and  says  you  are  under  arrest,  you  are  arrested.  Then  they  led 
us  out  of  the  prison,  and  a  taxi  was  waiting  for  us,  and  took  us 
home.  And  then  when  I  got  home,  about  twelve  o'clock,  I  got  the 
first  thing  I  had  had  to  eat  since  early  that  morning. 


Sunday  was  just  a  repetition  of  Saturday  for  my  sister  and  my- 
self, except  that  we  were  both  compelled  to  stay  outside  the  outer 
gate  of  the  prison.  On  Saturday  we  were  allowed  to  wait  down  in 
the  little  waiting  room,  and  on  Sunday  we  had  to  stand  in  the  street. 
And  if  I  have  given  you  that  in  a  lot  of  detail,  it  was  not  to  draw 
your  attention  to  our  personal  suffering.  But  if  that  had  happened 
in  Germany,  if  two  women  had  been  kept  from  their  brother's  death 
bed  and  made  to  stand  on  the  street  during  the  long,  cold  day,  you 
would  have  heard  a  great  deal  about  it  as  a  German  atrocity.  I 
mention  it  simply  because  it  was  a  British  atrocity.  I  do  not  want 
to  draw  attention  to  our  personality  in  any  way.  Sunday  was 
simply  a  repetition  of  Saturday.     And  on  Monday  my  brother  died. 


I  simply  want  to  say  something  about  the  inquest  that  my  sister- 
in-law  did  not  mention  this  morning,  and  that  is  this:  that  they  did 
everything — every  single  thing  they  could — to  bring  in  a  verdict  of 
suicide.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  the  law  about  it,  but  I  heard 
it  quite  late  on  Tuesday  evening  that  if  my  brother  was  found  to 
be  a  suicide,  they  could  hold  his  body.  I  have  mentioned  earlier 
that  we  had  summoned  this  specialist,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  whom 
we  called  to  see  my  brother  and  to  examine  his  medicine.  We  did 
not  summon  him  to  the  inquest,  because  we  did  not  think  it  neces- 
sary, and  you  must  give  twenty-four  hours'  notice  to  summon  wit- 
nesses. On  Tuesday  evening,  when  we  heard  that  they  were  trying 
to  bring  in  a  verdict  of  suicide,  we  immediately  called  up  Dr. 
Norman  Moore  and  told  him  the  circumstances  and  asked  him  to 
come  and  tell  the  jury  that  the  one  thing  my  brother  did  not  want 
to  do  was  to  die.  I  talked  with  him  myself  over  the  telephone,  and 
he  did  not  want  to  come.  The  jury  was  asked  to  bring  in  a  verdict 
of  suicide,  and  they  did  not  do  it.     They  brought  in  an  open  verdict. 



Our  solicitor  asked  them  for  the  body,  and  the  crown  solicitor 
jumped  up  and  said,  "Where  is  he  to  be  buried?"  And  our  solicitor 
said,  "In  Cork,  of  course."  And  they  said,  "You  cannot  have  the 
body  to  be  buried  any  place  outside  of  England  without  a  permit." 
My  sister-in-law  has  told  you  how  we  finally  got  permission  from 
the  Home  Office  to  take  the  body. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  if  there  is  anything  else 
between  that  and  the  Holyhead  incident? 

A.     No,  there  is  nothing. 

At  Crewe  we  were  told  that  when  we  got  to  Holyhead  we  were 
to  go  on  a  boat  and  go  straight  to  Cork.  My  brother  was  sent  for 
by  the  police  inspector.  I  do  not  know  that  you  are  aware  that  a 
large  body  of  police  traveled  on  the  train  from  Euston  to  Holyhead. 
They  tried  to  play  a  trick  on  us,  and  tried  to  send  the  train  off 
without  the  friends  knowing  it.  And  then  my  sister  and  myself 
went  into  the  van  where  my  brother's  remains  were,  and  said  we 
would  not  go  away.  Then  they  started  the  train  and  sent  us  away 
to  get  us  outside  of  London.  We  were  then  informed  by  the  police 
that  the  remains  were  to  be  put  on  the  steamship  Rathmore  and 
taken  to  Dublin,  and  that  not  more  than  twenty  of  my  brother's 
friends  were  to  be  allowed  to  travel  with  my  brother's  remains.  A 
consultation  was  held  with  my  sister,  and  we  decided  unanimously 
that  we  would  not  one  of  us  go  on  that  ship.  If  they  took  my 
brother's  remains  away  from  us  by  force,  and  then  we  went  on  the 
ship,  it  would  be  a  tacit  consent  to  their  action.  Some  people  have 
seemed  to  think  that  we  were  very  hard-hearted  to  let  my  brother's 
remains  travel  like  that  without  any  of  his  friends.  We  did  what 
we  knew  he  would  have  liked  us  to  do — what  would  be  for  Ireland's 
good  first. 

When  Holyhead  was  reached  we  went  and  stood  by  the  van  where 
my  brother's  remains  were.  My  younger  brother  went  and  inter- 
viewed the  station  master,  and  we  were  told  finally  that  the  body 
was  to  be  taken  by  force,  and  they  came  into  the  van  to  take  it. 
I  asked  the  station  master  if  he  was  not  going  to  fulfil  the  contract 
for  which  he  was  paid — the  contract  to  deliver  my  brother's  re- 
mains in  Dublin.  He  said  no;  that  he  had  government  orders,  and 
they  must  be  obeyed.  And  I  said  that  no  man  had  a  right  to  obey 
an  order  like  that.  Then  we  were  asked  to  go  outside,  and  we 
refused.  And  we  decided  that  this  time  technical  arrest,  like  the 
laying  of  an  officer's  hand  on  your  shoulder,  was  not  sufficient,  and 


that  this  time  we  ought  to  resent  by  bodily  resistance  the  second 
arrest  of  the  body  of  a  dead  man.  I  might  add  that  when  we  got 
on  the  platform  at  Holyhead  there  were  about  one  hundred  fifty 
Black-and-Tans  there,  and  their  faces  as  they  sneered  and  jeered 
through  the  window  at  my  brother's  body  was  the  most  evil  thing 
I  believe  I  have  ever  seen. 

Finally  all  the  friends  gathered  around  the  coffin,  and  they  refused 
to  move.  I  would  rather  be  spared  the  details  of  what  followed. 
There  were  some  men  first:  I  can  only  say  that  I  was  the  first 
woman  to  be  picked  up  like  a  bale  of  goods  and  thrown  out — 
thrown  out  literally — onto  the  platform.  My  brother  jumped  to 
try  to  save  me,  and  he  was  nearly  choked  by  four  policemen.  And 
a  military  officer  jumped  over  a  wagon — a  small  cart — and  took 
him  by  the  back  of  the  neck  and  tried  to  choke  him.  He  had  his 
arms  around  me,  and  I  threw  my  arms  around  him  to  try  to  save 
him  from  being  choked  to  death.  The  incident  was  a  very  painful 
one.  And  I  thought  every  instant  that  my  younger  brother  would 
drop  dead  before  my  eyes,  because  the  treatment  he  received  by  the 
Canadian  authorities  in  a  Canadian  prison  during  the  war  has 
injured  his  heart;  and  a  doctor  in  America  has  told  him  that  any 
excitement  is  apt  to  cause  him  to  drop  dead.  And  I  was  afraid  he 
was  going  to  drop  dead  that  night. 

Q."    Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  time  of  day  was  that? 

A.     Eleven  o'clock  at  night;  between  eleven  and  twelve. 

Q.     What  was  done  then  after  that? 

A.  They  took  the  body,  and  increased  the  number  that  could 
travel  wTith  it  from  twenty  to  seventy-five;  and  when  we  refused  to 
go,  the  police  inspector  asked  Mr.  O'Brien  to  point  out  to  the  rela- 
tives the  sacredness  of  the  remains  and  what  respect  was  due  them. 
As  if  we  needed  to  be  pointed  out  the  sacredness  of  his  body! 

The  body  was  taken  by  the  Rathmore  to  Dublin.  We  proceeded 
to  Dublin,  where  the  funeral  was  carried  out,  and  then  we  went  on 
to  Cork  by  special  train.  In  the  evening  I  got  a  letter  that  my 
brother's  body  was  at  the  customs  house  and  we  might  have  it.  It 
was  quarter  past  nine  when  I  got  that  word.  They  tried  to  get  every- 
body in  the  city  to  take  that  body  before  they  communicated  with 
us.  I  am  glad  to  say  that  the  citizens  of  Cork  did  exactly  what  we 
would  have  had  them  do,  and  refused  to  touch  his  remains  because 
they  had  no  authority. 

Q.     Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  And  his  remains  were  interred  where? 
A.     In  what  is  called  the  Martyrs'  Plot. 
Q.     And  that  plot  is  where? 


A.  It  is  devoted  to  those  who  have  been  the  victims  of  the  recent 
outrages  in  Cork.  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  the  first  to  be 
buried  there.  The  fallen  members  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
are  also  there,  and  the  other  deceased  hunger  strikers  have  been 
buried  there  since.  It  is  fast  filling  up;  and  at  the  rate  that  Eng- 
land is  killing  people  there,  it  seems  that  they  would  like  it  to  take 
in  the  whole  country. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  There  are  a  couple  of  matters  the  Commission 
would  like  to  ask  you  about. 


Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Could  you  tell  us  something  more,  Miss 
MacSwiney,  about  the  extent  to  which  the  present  Republican  courts 
in  Ireland  are  functioning? 

A.  Yes.  I  would  like  to  refer  first  to  what  I  said  yesterday — 
that  the  courts,  the  English  courts,  were  sitting  in  state  behind 
barbed  wire  and  sand  bags.  That  was  true  until  a  couple  of  months 
ago,  when  they  brought  in  the  Coercion  Act,  so  that  these  judges 
do  not  sit  any  longer,  because  they  have  military  courts  now. 


Another  point  that  I  would  like  to  emphasize  is  that  the  English 
say  that  we  Irish  will  never  be  fit  for  self-government.  But  there 
is  one  instance  I  would  like  to  tell  that  I  am  sure  a  good  many  here 
have  never  heard  of.  It  happened  while  we  were  at  Brixton.  It 
was  related  in  all  of  the  papers,  and  in  some  it  was  called  a  judg- 
ment of  Solomon.  There  were  two  brothers  who  for  many  years 
had  been  fighting  about  the  division  of  the  large  farm  where  they 
lived.  One  brother  was  married,  and  he  wanted  a  settlement.  They 
had  been  into  English  courts  three  or  four  times,  and  they  wanted 
a  decision.  The  fight  between  the  brothers  was  getting  to  be  very 
bitter.  The  case  was  finally  taken  into  a  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  the 
decision  was  very  interesting.  It  was  this:  the  elder  brother  was  to 
make  the  division  of  the  farm  as  he  considered  it  fair,  and  the 
younger  brother  was  to  take  his  choice  of  the  halves.  I  do  not 
think  that  since  the  time  of  Solomon  you  have  had  a  more  fair 
judgment  than  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask  if  you  would  attribute  that 
to  the  Irish  character  or  to  the  absence  of  lawyers  from  the  courts? 

A.     Perhaps  to  both,  Mr.  Thomas. 



Another  matter  to  which  I  would  like  to  refer  was  the  shooting  of 
the  fourteen  military  officers  in  Dublin.  Of  course  I  was  not  there 
and  do  not  know  ail  of  the  details  of  the  case.  And  yet  I  would 
know  from  my  own  confidence  in  the  Irish  Government  that  that 
was  just.  And  I  can  tell  you  that  those  fourteen  officers  who  were 
shot  were  fourteen  absolutely  expert  men  who  were  sent  over  to 
get  the  whole  threads  of  our  organization  into  their  hands;  that 
they  had  captured  vital  documents  of  ours  which  they  were  about 
to  use;  and  death  was  absolutely  necessary  by  the  laws  of  the 
Republic.  They  had  been  infringing  on  our  rights.  They  were 
military  officers  doing  secret  service  work  for  their  government. 
That  I  know.  And  I  know  perfectly  well  that  they  were  not  shot 
without  good  reason,  and  that  they  were  a  very  great  danger  to  our 
men.  whose  lives  we  value.  Also,  a  very  good  point  is  made  of  the 
fact  that  one  man  was  shot  in  the  presence  of  his  wife.  But  many  of 
our  men  have  been  shot  in  the  presence  of  their  wives;  and  in  the 
case  of  the  British  government  it  is  not  necessary,  because  they 
could  get  our  men  at  any  time.  I  know  that  it  is  not  a  nice  thing 
to  happen,  but  in  this  case  it  was  unavoidable. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  is  the  nature  of  the  notice  that  is  given 
by  the  Irish  Republic  to  British  officers  who  are  going  to  be  killed? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  definitely,  but  it  has  been  publicly  stated 
that  certain  things  are  forbidden  by  the  Irish  Government;  that 
they  are  crimes,  and  that  any  man  who  does  those  things  will  be 
shot.  In  addition,  I  think  there  is  a  notice  sent  to  every  man  who 
is  going  to  be  shot,  and  he  is  warned.  Some  of  them  are  captured 
and  tried  before  a  court  in  person  before  they  are  condemned  to  be 

Q.  But  if  the  British  officer  is  known  to  commit  an  act  of  treason 
to  the  Irish  Government,  is  there  some  communication  sent  to  him 
warning  him  that  if  he  does  not  leave  the  country  he  will  be  shot? 

A:  I  understand  that  there  is.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge 
of  that. 

Q.  But  you  understand  that  a  warning  is  given  to  cease  some 
kind  of  activity  that  is  considered  harmful  by  the  Irish  Government, 
and  that  if  they  do  not  do  so  they  will  be  killed? 

A.     Yes,  I  understand  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  There  are  two  points  that  I  under- 
stand you  to  make:  first,  that  your  general  confidence  in  the  Irish 
Republic  is  such  that  the  shooting,  you  think,  is  justified  according 


to  the  code  of  war.  Do  I  also  understand  you  to  say  that  these 
fourteen  men  were  military  spies? 

A.  I  do  not  know  personally  that  these  fourteen  men  were  mili- 
tary intelligence  men,  but  I  am  quite  sure  if  they  were  not  they 
would  not  have  been  shot. 

Q.  I  understood  these  fourteen  men  were  connected  with  courts- 
martial ;  but  you  claim  now  they  were  connected  with  the  military 
intelligence  service? 

A.  Yes,  but  you  must  understand  that  I  was  in  the  midst  of  the 
affairs  of  my  brother's  death,  and  since  then  I  have  been  so  occupied 
with  his  papers  that  I  have  not  given  great  attention  to  the  matter. 
But  I  heard  that  this  was  the  case;  that  they  were  secret  service  men. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  you  and  Mr.  Frank  Walsh  could  gather 
further  evidence  on  that  point? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  I  could  gather  it. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  I  will  undertake  to  get  it. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  You  think  these  men  were  spies? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  my  understanding. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  I  understand  it,  there  is  a  distinction 
between  men  living  in  barracks  who  have  a  definite  military  duty 
to  perform,  and  those  who  come  into  the  country  as  spies  to  trace 
down  men,  and  who  often  go  about  in  civilian  clothes  to  conceal 
their  identity. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  But  you  understood  that  these  fourteen  men  were  not  con- 
nected with  open  military  leaders,  but  had  come  to  Ireland  to  spy 
there  and  seek  the  lives  of  your  men? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 


Q.  I  believe  you  told  me,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  as  you  had  told 
something  of  the  educational  system  that  had  existed  heretofore, 
that  you  would  like  briefly  to  state  what  is  being  done  now  by  your 
nation  for  the  education  of  your  children. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  And  I  would  like  in  that  connection  for  you 
to  state  what  you  have  observed  since  this  movement  began  in  the 
way  of  giving  stamina  and  strength  and  character  to  the  future  of 
your  country — what  effect  this  movement  has  had  upon  the  character 
of  the  people. 

A.     Yes,  I  would  like  to  speak  of  that,  but  I  shall  not  dwell  at 


great  length  upon  it.  Yesterday  I  explained  to  you  the  method  of 
education  of  what  I  reluctantly  called  the  "better  class"  of  the 
country — that  it  anglicized  them;  it  made  them  think  that  everything 
English  was  good  and  that  everything  Irish  was  something  to  be 
ashamed  of.  Thus  people  sometimes  claimed  to  be  Irish,  but  they 
were  proud  to  be  known  as  West  Britons.  Once  when  I  spoke  of 
the  Irish  element,  one  of  these  persons  said  to  me,  "Yes,  that  is 
the  rowdy  element." 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  connection  with  the  new 
school  system  in  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  I  was  the  founder  of  a  school  for  girls.  I  founded 
it  in  connection  with  my  dismissal  in  1916.  When  I  found  the 
secondary  schools  of  the  country  were  so  anglicized  that  one  could 
not  teach  in  them  and  be  Irish,  I  took  things  into  my  own  hands 
and  opened  up  a  school  in  our  home,  and  it  has  grown  very  rapidly. 

Q.     How  many  pupils  have  you  now? 

A.     About  one  hundred. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Is  there  another  school  of  that  same  kind 
in  Dublin? 

A.  Yes,  founded  afterwards  by  Miss  Gavan  Duffy  in  Dublin. 
It  has  been  very  successful,  too. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Does  your  Republic  make  provision  for 

A.  Not  financially  yet,  but  there  is  a  minister  of  education  that 
will  take  charge  later  on.  But  these  two  schools  had  this  advantage: 
that  we  who  started  them  had  the  confidence  of  our  fellow  citizens; 
that  we  were  able  to  teach,  in  the  first  place,  and  that  we  were  also 
able  to  give,  from  the  standpoint  of  general  culture  and  refinement, 
anything  that  the  pro-British  schools  could  give.  That  is  the  spirit 
of  the  school :  we  give  the  best  that  any  school  around  us  could 
give  of  the  culture  and  refinement  of  the  world  generally.  We  do 
not  confine  ourselves  to  our  own  country,  but  our  own  country  is 
the  center  from  which  everything  starts — the  same  as  in  American 
schools  America  is  the  center  from  which  things  start.  You  learn 
your  own  history  first.  France  learns  her  own  history  first.  And 
I  know  that  England  does. 

We  were  the  first  girls'  school  in  Ireland — of  course,  Padraic 
Pearse  did  it  at  his  school — but  we  were  the  first  in  Ireland  to 
start  in  with  Irish  culture.  We  taught  them,  when  they  said  they 
were  proud  of  being  Irish,  we  taught  them  what  that  meant.  We 
taught  Irish  history  from  the  Irish  point  of  view;  and  when  the 
books  did  not  agree  with  that — because  I  have  told  you  that  the 
books  were  written  in  England  for  Ireland — then  the  books  had  to 


go  to  the  wall,  and  the  truth  was  told.  But  the  people  who  sent 
their  children  to  our  schools  were  not  all  Irish  Republicans.  One 
man  was  reproved  for  sending  his  children  to  us,  and  he  said,  "I 
will  take  my  political  orders  from  my  party,  but  I  will  not  take 
orders  from  it  as  to  where  to  send  my  children  to  school."  We 
have  done  what  we  could  in  Cork  to  destroy  anglicization,  and  so 
has  St.  Brigid's  school  in  Dublin. 

This  year  we  had  no  government  grant  to  speak  of,  and  we  were 
afraid  we  would  have  to  close  down  for  lack  of  funds;  and  a  com- 
mittee of  Irish  friends  in  both  Cork  and  Dublin  decided  that  it 
would  be  a  national  calamity  to  close  our  schools,  so  they  got 
together  a  committee  and  asked  people  to  take  shares  to  finance 
both  schools  until  An  Dail x  was  prepared  to  take  over  control. 
And  the  result  was  that  the  committee  took  over  the  financing  of 
the  school  and  left  the  management  of  the  school  to  us. 


Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  As  an  educator  who  has  to  teach 
history  to  children,  you  would  regret  very  much,  would  you  not, 
that  these  British  officers  had  a  secret  trial  and  were  condemned 
to  death  in  their  absence? 

A.  Yes,  I  certainly  would  say  that  it  is  regrettable  that  such 
things  have  to  be  done.  I  dare  say  that  in  your  Revolutionary  War 
you  had  to  do  a  great  many  things  that  you  regret  having  had  to  do. 
And  I  dare  say  in  teaching  your  children  their  history,  you  touch 
as  lightly  as  possible  on  the  things  you  had  to  do. 

Q.  The  children  are  very  much  educated  by  current  events,  by 
what  is  happening  at  the  moment.  Do  you  do  anything  to  counter- 
act what  is  being  done  all  around  them? 

A.  With  regard  to  those  things,  the  children  we  have  at  school 
come  from  all  sorts  of  parents;  and  we  have  decided  for  the  present 
that  we  will  not  teach  them  directly  the  Irish  Republican  point  of 
view  any  more  than  any  other  point  of  view.  But  they  get  it  in- 
sensibly. The  atmosphere  of  the  school  is  Irish.  It  is  the  first  girls' 
school  of  the  better  class  where  the  atmosphere  is  Irish. 


I  would  like  to  stress  another  point.  Up  to  the  time  the  Volun- 
teer movement  started,  there  was  an  atmosphere  of — I  do  not  like 

An  Dail — the  national  parliament. 


to  call  it  slavery — but  a  very  unpleasant  atmosphere  in  Ireland. 
People  were  ashamed  to  hold  up  their  heads.  There  was  a  time 
when  people  went  about  with  what  you  would  call  a  hang-dog 
expression.  But  now  the  young  men  and  women  go  about  holding 
up  their  heads,  knowing  perfectly  well  that  they  are  acting  in  a  way 
that  future  generations  will  be  proud  of  them.  There  is  not  a  man 
or  woman  today  who  is  not  interested  in  the  Irish  Republic — who 
is  not  proud  to  be  Irish. 

And  you  must  remember  that  we  have  in  Ireland  today  a  Repub- 
lican army  that  is  both  large  and  victorious.  And  if  England 
succeeds  in  shooting  down  the  men,  the  women  will  take  their 
places.  And  if  she  shoots  down  the  women,  the  children  will  take 
their  places.  And  if  they  shoot  down  the  children,  the  blades  of 
grass  will  spring  up  into  armed  men  and  take  their  places. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  is  all  very  easy  to  understand. 
But  how  do  you  teach  the  children  about  affairs  where  men  are  shot 
down  in  their  hotel  rooms  and  in  their  homes,  and  things  like  that? 

A.  Yes,  we  have  been  asked  questions  like  that  in  school.  We 
were  asked  one  day  in  school  in  a  religious  lesson  what  the  ethics 
of  shooting  policemen  were.  And  the  answer  I  gave  the  child  was 
this:  We  are  at  war  at  present.  During  the  period  that  we  are 
passing  through,  many  things  have  to  be  done  that  we  may  think 
are  regrettable;  that  those  things  have  to  be  done  by  the  Council 
that  is  directing  our  affairs;  and  until  we  can  get  a  knowledge  of 
the  facts  on  which  our  Supreme  Council's  actions  are  based,  that 
we  cannot  judge;  and  that  therefore  we  must  suspend  judgment  for 
the  time.  But  that  if  we  find  our  government  guilty  of  cruelty,  we 
must  blame  our  government  as  well  as  any  other  government.  But 
until  we  have  all  the  facts,  we  should  not  pass  judgment.  This 
was  the  answer  I  gave  to  a  class  of  senior  girls.  But  I  may  say 
to  you  that  I  think  we  are  born  politicians  in  Ireland;  and  we  do 
not  have  to  explain  things  to  the  children.  As  soon  as  they  are 
out  of  the  cradle  they  know  about  as  much  about  these  things  as 
we  do. 

Now,  Mr.  Walsh,  I  think  that  is  about  all. 


Q.     Commissioner   Maurer:   I   would   like  to   ask  you  about   the 

arrangements  for  financing  your  government.  Have  you  a  plan  of 
finance  at  work? 

A.     The   government   floated   a   loan   in   Ireland   some  time   ago, 


and  they  asked  for  a  quarter  of  a  million,  and  that  quarter  of  a 
million  was  oversubscribed.  The  people  are  incredibly  generous. 
When  money  is  needed,  it  will  come. 


There  are  one  or  two  things  I  would  like  to  say  while  we  are 
closing  up  at  the  end  of  these  two  days,  and  they  are  this  (I  would 
ask  the  Chairman's  permission  to  stand  in  telling  them)  :  I  want, 
in  leaving  you,  to  ask  you  to  keep  in  mind  one  or  two  points.  The 
long  story  I  have  been  telling  you  is  to  show  you  how  all  the  time 
English  propaganda  is  being  used  to  discredit  us  before  all  the 
world  and  among  the  nations.  And  I  want  you,  whenever  you  are 
told  anything  about  Ireland  from  any  English  source,  to  remember 
what  I  have  told  you  today,  and  to  say,  "We  will  not  judge  until 
we  have  heard  the  other  side."  You  have  been  told  lies  and  lies 
and  lies  about  us.  And  one  of  the  manufactured  lies  I  want  to 
scotch  is  that  you  are  told  day  after  day  that  this  co-called  Sepa- 
ratist Movement  in  Ireland  is  only  the  work  of  the  extremist  section, 
which  the  English  people  call  the  "murder  gang";  and  that  the 
majority  of  the  Irish  people,  who  are  not  Sinn  Feiners,  are  moderate 
people  who  are  sighing  for  peace.  There  is  no  such  division  in 
Ireland  at  all.  And  please  stress  that.  And  I  ask  the  newspaper 
men  to  state  that  fairly  before  the  American  public.  I  want  to 
speak  to  the  American  people.  I  know  the  Irish  in  America  are 
with  us,  and  to  talk  to  them  is  like  taking  coals  to  Newcastle.  I 
don't  want — I  was  most  uncomplimentary  to  some  of  my  Irish- 
American  sympathizers  this  morning,  and  I  told  them  I  didn't  want 
to  talk  to  them.  I  want  to  talk  to  the  people  who  call  themselves 
"one  hundred  per  cent.  Americans" — although  I  should  think  I 
would  have  to  go  to  the  Cherokee  Indians  to  do  that!  But  I  want 
to  talk  to  the  Americans  who  are  anti-Irish.  And  I  want  to  ask 
them,  in  the  name  of  humanity,  in  the  name  of  civilization  and  of 
the  freedom  they  said  they  fought  for,  to  be  fair  to  us.  We  are  not 
a  divided  people.  We  are  one.  There  is  a  little  corner  in  Ireland 
of  English  settlers,  but  they  are  Irish  now,  although  they  have  kept 
some  of  the  English  characteristics  up  in  the  north  of  Ireland. 
That  is  one  of  our  domestic  problems.  But  we  Irish  are  not  a 
problem  of  England:  we  are  an  international  problem,  and  the 
world  will  have  to  recognize  it.  And  there  will  be  no  peace  for 
England  and  there  will  be  no  peace  for  the  world  until  it  is  settled. 
And  I  know  that  you  American  people  have  recognized  that,  and 
that  this  American  Commission  has  done  its  best  to  try  and  settle 
that  problem  in  the  interests  of  world  peace. 



I  would  ask  vou,  when  you  are  told  lies  about  the  extremist  section 
that  will  accept  no  reconciliation,  and  the  moderate  Sinn  Fein  ele-' 
ment,  to  remember  that  I  have  told  you  that  there  is  no  such  thing; 
that  the  whole  movement  in  Ireland  today  is  one  and  indivisible; 
that  we  are  out  for  an  Irish  republic;  that  we  are  out  for  complete 
separation  from  our  oppressor;  that  there  is  no  government  in 
Ireland  today  supported  by  the  people  except  the  government  with 
the  ideals  President  de  Valera  stands  for  and  the  ideals  Arthur 
Griffith  stands  for,  and  the  rest  of  those  men,  and  the  weakest  woman 
and  child  among  us.  We  want  our  Republic,  and  we  will  have  it 
with  or  without  the  help  of  the  world.  For  when  men  and  women 
and  children  are  willing  to  die  for  a  cause,  that  cause  must  triumph 
in  the  end.  And  all  we  ask  from  the  American  people  is  this,  that 
they  should  give  us  justice  and  fair  play;  that  Americans  should 
not  listen  to  England  when  she  says  that  a  small  body  of  extremists 
is  the  cause  of  all  this  trouble.  That  is  not  true.  I  would  like  to 
have  you  remember  what  I  have  said  today:  that  the  cause  of 
Ireland  is  an  Irish  Republic,  and  that  men,  women,  and  children 
are  united  on  that  point.